Honda Car Forum

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 21:21:27 GMT, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>"Barry S." <nntp@spamsack.org> wrote
>> <sbigelowPOV@rogers.com> wrote:
>> >"Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote
>> >> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake
>> >> > Thanks for the caution re the air gun. I'll read up on it. Safety
>> >> > first. I've seen the outcome of one too many accidents where it was
>> >> > not.
>>
>> Wouldn't worry about the impact gun taking your arm off. It doesn't
>> happen. However, you should wear Z87 compliant eye protection because
>> things can go flying.
>>
>> >> That caution is not realistic. An air impact gun is specifically designed
>> >> to allow any able-bodied individuals to safely exert forces otherwise not
>> >> possible for them. The gun will NOT "rip your arms off", as Curly does say
>> >> later.
>>
>> This is absolutely correct.
>>
>> >> A major drawback of the breaker bar method is that, if improperly applied,
>> >> you risk damage to the engine mounts. There's a reason all garages use air
>> >> impact tools.
>>
>> The other problem with breaker bars is that if you don't have a
>> vehicle lift, e.g. your lying on ground using jack stands, it can be
>> hard to get enough torque on it and maintain a good angle so that the
>> socket doesn't slip off. With the impact, you're hitting it straight
>> on. No chance of rounding the bolt off.
>>
>> >> If you can swing the compressor rental (easy enough in most locales),
>> >> that's the best way to go, hands down.
>>
>> Home Depot rents them for a small sum. I'm not sure if you can rent a
>> 1/2" impact wrench, if not, invest in one.
>
>Thanks all for the comments. I gather those of you who have an air impact wrench
>(with an air compressor) use it a lot? I can see using it for my tire rotations
>(with drive adapters as needed) but am not sure I'd use it for much else besides
>the pulley bolt, so I am leaning towards rental. Comments welcome.

FWIW in the late-model Helm manuals, Honda specifically says to *not* use
an impact wrench for the tightening of the pulley bolt - nothing is said
about using one for loosening but they do show the pulley holder tool and a
breaker bar for the purpose. Of course if you don't have a pulley with the
50mm hex "socket" built in it leaves a question of what is the best method
to go about things. I also would not put an impact wrench on my wheel nuts
- they should be hand torqued.

>Still, I see several 1/2-inch air impact wrenches (rated well over 130 ft-lbs of
>torque) at http://www.arizonatools.com/catalog/...288-3069-3071/ . They
>range in price from around $40 to over $100. If the $40 version is quite
>adequate to do the pulley bolt, then with an air compressor I can see laying out
>the money for my own. Is such an inexpensive impact wrench worth the money?

There have been estimates here of torque to get the pulley bolt off of
300-500lb/ft. Nobody seems to be sure if this is due to factory
over-torquing or longterm heat cycling - I've never done a 2nd TB
replacement on the same car so don't know what happens when you *know* it
was torqued correctly 90K miles ago. The first time I tried the job I got
a 150lb/ft electric impact wrench from Sears and it wouldn't budge - the
wrench casing broke in the attempt, so I got my money back.:-)

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 07:24:12 -0500, George Macdonald
<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 21:21:27 GMT, "Caroline"
><caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Barry S." <nntp@spamsack.org> wrote
>>> <sbigelowPOV@rogers.com> wrote:
>>> >"Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote
>>> >> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake
>>> >> > Thanks for the caution re the air gun. I'll read up on it. Safety
>>> >> > first. I've seen the outcome of one too many accidents where it was
>>> >> > not.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't worry about the impact gun taking your arm off. It doesn't
>>> happen. However, you should wear Z87 compliant eye protection because
>>> things can go flying.
>>>
>>> >> That caution is not realistic. An air impact gun is specifically designed
>>> >> to allow any able-bodied individuals to safely exert forces otherwise not
>>> >> possible for them. The gun will NOT "rip your arms off", as Curly does say
>>> >> later.
>>>
>>> This is absolutely correct.
>>>
>>> >> A major drawback of the breaker bar method is that, if improperly applied,
>>> >> you risk damage to the engine mounts. There's a reason all garages use air
>>> >> impact tools.
>>>
>>> The other problem with breaker bars is that if you don't have a
>>> vehicle lift, e.g. your lying on ground using jack stands, it can be
>>> hard to get enough torque on it and maintain a good angle so that the
>>> socket doesn't slip off. With the impact, you're hitting it straight
>>> on. No chance of rounding the bolt off.
>>>
>>> >> If you can swing the compressor rental (easy enough in most locales),
>>> >> that's the best way to go, hands down.
>>>
>>> Home Depot rents them for a small sum. I'm not sure if you can rent a
>>> 1/2" impact wrench, if not, invest in one.
>>
>>Thanks all for the comments. I gather those of you who have an air impact wrench
>>(with an air compressor) use it a lot? I can see using it for my tire rotations
>>(with drive adapters as needed) but am not sure I'd use it for much else besides
>>the pulley bolt, so I am leaning towards rental. Comments welcome.
>
>FWIW in the late-model Helm manuals, Honda specifically says to *not* use
>an impact wrench for the tightening of the pulley bolt - nothing is said
>about using one for loosening but they do show the pulley holder tool and a
>breaker bar for the purpose. Of course if you don't have a pulley with the
>50mm hex "socket" built in it leaves a question of what is the best method
>to go about things. I also would not put an impact wrench on my wheel nuts
>- they should be hand torqued.

If you don't have the special Snap-On pulley holder, a torque stick +
impact seems to work fine. The pulley holder would have been nice,
but I use what's available!

The key is to not let the impact wrench deliver its full power to the
bolt, it has to be limited somehow.

__________________
Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'.
N38.6 W121.4

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake unto the masses in
news:JHKJb.35584$Pg1.81@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net:

>
> Wait a second: The pulley bolt has a right-handed thread on a 1991
> (and most or all) Honda Civic(s), isn't it?


Yes.


>
> If so, and the engine rotates as you say, then the bolt will tend to
> be unscrewed.


The crank pulley is keyed to the crankshaft (don't lose that key!) The bolt
neither tightens nor loosens. My earlier comment was a mistake.


--
TeGGeR®

George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> spake unto the
masses in newsusfvv88vdhtn8bcpnvsadjoomfria39pi@4ax.com:

>
> There have been estimates here of torque to get the pulley bolt off of
> 300-500lb/ft. Nobody seems to be sure if this is due to factory
> over-torquing or longterm heat cycling

My guess is long-term heat-cycling combined with small amounts of rust
around the perimeter of the bolt head and washer

--
TeGGeR®

"Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake
> > Wait a second: The pulley bolt has a right-handed thread on a 1991
> > (and most or all) Honda Civic(s), isn't it?
>
> Yes.
>
> > If so, and the engine rotates as you say, then the bolt will tend to
> > be unscrewed.
>
> The crank pulley is keyed to the crankshaft (don't lose that key!) The bolt
> neither tightens nor loosens. My earlier comment was a mistake.

I realize my analysis was wrong, too. But for the key, the crankshaft would tend
to be rotating onto the bolt, tightening the connection.

Like you said, though, the key stops this.

Thanks, George, for tactfully pointing out my stupidity in thinking (in essence)
an impact wrench could be used as a torque wrench when re-assembling.

I see all the other posts on this. I'm hanging onto the thread.

On 4 Jan 2004 17:20:05 GMT, "Tegger®"
<teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote:

>George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> spake unto the
>masses in newsusfvv88vdhtn8bcpnvsadjoomfria39pi@4ax.com:
>
>>
>> There have been estimates here of torque to get the pulley bolt off of
>> 300-500lb/ft. Nobody seems to be sure if this is due to factory
>> over-torquing or longterm heat cycling
>
>My guess is long-term heat-cycling combined with small amounts of rust
>around the perimeter of the bolt head and washer

And thats where my next favorite tool comes in, the air hammer. If
you have a bolt that simply won't budge with the impact gun, hitting
it straight on with the air hammer sometimes dislodges rust or
whatever has it welded in place. The air hammer is also great for (as
a last resort) removing wheel locks you don't have the keys for.
However, there are usually better options.

Lug nut removal with air hammer, see
http://www.mailsack.org/lugnut.JPG I made a mess of this one, but dig
in, and then angle the tool so it hits towards the left. Often you can
kick them loose and hand back them off using this method.

__________________
Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'.
N38.6 W121.4

On 1/4/04 4:03 PM, in article re2hvvkg10n7mh10crrjpk60kgp8mibf34@4ax.com,
"Barry S." <nntp@spamsack.org> wrote:

> On 4 Jan 2004 17:20:05 GMT, "Tegger®"
> <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote:
>
>> George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> spake unto the
>> masses in newsusfvv88vdhtn8bcpnvsadjoomfria39pi@4ax.com:
>>
>>>
>>> There have been estimates here of torque to get the pulley bolt off of
>>> 300-500lb/ft. Nobody seems to be sure if this is due to factory
>>> over-torquing or longterm heat cycling
>>
>> My guess is long-term heat-cycling combined with small amounts of rust
>> around the perimeter of the bolt head and washer
>
> And thats where my next favorite tool comes in, the air hammer. If
> you have a bolt that simply won't budge with the impact gun, hitting
> it straight on with the air hammer sometimes dislodges rust or
> whatever has it welded in place. The air hammer is also great for (as
> a last resort) removing wheel locks you don't have the keys for.
> However, there are usually better options.
>
> Lug nut removal with air hammer, see
> http://www.mailsack.org/lugnut.JPG I made a mess of this one, but dig
> in, and then angle the tool so it hits towards the left. Often you can
> kick them loose and hand back them off using this method.
>
> __________________
> Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with
> 'mail'.
> N38.6 W121.4

The reason I have heard for Honda's recommending against using an impact
wrench on the crank bolt is because the crank seals and bearings can be
dislodged and/or damaged. If that is true, I don't think I want to be
pounding on it too much with the air hammer.

"E. Meyer" <e.meyerNOSPAM@ieee.org> spake unto the masses in
news:BC1DED3A.379A6%e.meyerNOSPAM@ieee.org:

> On 1/4/04 4:03 PM, in article re2hvvkg10n7mh10crrjpk60kgp8mibf34@4ax.com,
> "Barry S." <nntp@spamsack.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Lug nut removal with air hammer, see
>> http://www.mailsack.org/lugnut.JPG I made a mess of this one, but dig
>> in, and then angle the tool so it hits towards the left. Often you can
>> kick them loose and hand back them off using this method.

>
> The reason I have heard for Honda's recommending against using an impact
> wrench on the crank bolt is because the crank seals and bearings can be
> dislodged and/or damaged. If that is true, I don't think I want to be
> pounding on it too much with the air hammer.
>
>


You can't damage the crank oil seal by messing with the crank bolt. The two
are totally unrelated to each other and not even in the same place.

The air hammer is an accepted last-resort solution.


--
TeGGeR®

I used a 24inch chain wrench on the crank pulley and then carefully pad it
with some cardboard so it doesn't nick or bend the ribs on the pulley. That
holds it good while I use a breaker bar on the pulley bolt. Worked for
putting it back on and torquing it too.


CaptainKrunch


"Barry S." <nntp@spamsack.org> wrote in message
news:re2hvvkg10n7mh10crrjpk60kgp8mibf34@4ax.com...
> On 4 Jan 2004 17:20:05 GMT, "Tegger®"
> <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote:
>
> >George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> spake unto the
> >masses in newsusfvv88vdhtn8bcpnvsadjoomfria39pi@4ax.com:
> >
> >>
> >> There have been estimates here of torque to get the pulley bolt off of
> >> 300-500lb/ft. Nobody seems to be sure if this is due to factory
> >> over-torquing or longterm heat cycling
> >
> >My guess is long-term heat-cycling combined with small amounts of rust
> >around the perimeter of the bolt head and washer
>
> And thats where my next favorite tool comes in, the air hammer. If
> you have a bolt that simply won't budge with the impact gun, hitting
> it straight on with the air hammer sometimes dislodges rust or
> whatever has it welded in place. The air hammer is also great for (as
> a last resort) removing wheel locks you don't have the keys for.
> However, there are usually better options.
>
> Lug nut removal with air hammer, see
> http://www.mailsack.org/lugnut.JPG I made a mess of this one, but dig
> in, and then angle the tool so it hits towards the left. Often you can
> kick them loose and hand back them off using this method.
>
> __________________
> Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with
'mail'.
> N38.6 W121.4

On 4 Jan 2004 09:44:08 -0600, Barry S. <nntp@spamsack.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 07:24:12 -0500, George Macdonald
><fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
>
<<snip>>

>>FWIW in the late-model Helm manuals, Honda specifically says to *not* use
>>an impact wrench for the tightening of the pulley bolt - nothing is said
>>about using one for loosening but they do show the pulley holder tool and a
>>breaker bar for the purpose. Of course if you don't have a pulley with the
>>50mm hex "socket" built in it leaves a question of what is the best method
>>to go about things. I also would not put an impact wrench on my wheel nuts
>>- they should be hand torqued.
>
>If you don't have the special Snap-On pulley holder, a torque stick +
>impact seems to work fine. The pulley holder would have been nice,
>but I use what's available!

There are apparently a few aftermarket pulley holders, including Schley and
Snap-On. I'm not sure who makes the tool Honda sells - no mfr name on it
but FWIW it's bar is an effective 30" in length. If Honda says don't do
the impact wrench it makes me wonder if there isn't some reason, e.g.
possible damage to bearings or valve train from the hammering?... maybe
VTEC mechanisms are particularly susceptible?

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??