Honda Car Forum

"Barry S." <nntp@spamsack.org> wrote
> <sbigelowPOV@rogers.com> wrote:
> >"Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote
> >> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake
> >> > Thanks for the caution re the air gun. I'll read up on it. Safety
> >> > first. I've seen the outcome of one too many accidents where it was
> >> > not.
>
> Wouldn't worry about the impact gun taking your arm off. It doesn't
> happen. However, you should wear Z87 compliant eye protection because
> things can go flying.
>
> >> That caution is not realistic. An air impact gun is specifically designed
> >> to allow any able-bodied individuals to safely exert forces otherwise not
> >> possible for them. The gun will NOT "rip your arms off", as Curly does say
> >> later.
>
> This is absolutely correct.
>
> >> A major drawback of the breaker bar method is that, if improperly applied,
> >> you risk damage to the engine mounts. There's a reason all garages use air
> >> impact tools.
>
> The other problem with breaker bars is that if you don't have a
> vehicle lift, e.g. your lying on ground using jack stands, it can be
> hard to get enough torque on it and maintain a good angle so that the
> socket doesn't slip off. With the impact, you're hitting it straight
> on. No chance of rounding the bolt off.
>
> >> If you can swing the compressor rental (easy enough in most locales),
> >> that's the best way to go, hands down.
>
> Home Depot rents them for a small sum. I'm not sure if you can rent a
> 1/2" impact wrench, if not, invest in one.

Thanks all for the comments. I gather those of you who have an air impact wrench
(with an air compressor) use it a lot? I can see using it for my tire rotations
(with drive adapters as needed) but am not sure I'd use it for much else besides
the pulley bolt, so I am leaning towards rental. Comments welcome.

Still, I see several 1/2-inch air impact wrenches (rated well over 130 ft-lbs of
torque) at http://www.arizonatools.com/catalog/...288-3069-3071/ . They
range in price from around $40 to over $100. If the $40 version is quite
adequate to do the pulley bolt, then with an air compressor I can see laying out
the money for my own. Is such an inexpensive impact wrench worth the money?

I realize a decent air compressor is another pile of dough. But I can find
plenty more uses for it. E.g. inflating car and bike tires and blowing clean
parts.

On 1/3/04 3:21 PM, in article
rnGJb.35004$Pg1.14201@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks all for the comments. I gather those of you who have an air impact
> wrench
> (with an air compressor) use it a lot? I can see using it for my tire
> rotations
> (with drive adapters as needed) but am not sure I'd use it for much else
> besides
> the pulley bolt, so I am leaning towards rental. Comments welcome.
>
> Still, I see several 1/2-inch air impact wrenches (rated well over 130 ft-lbs
> of
> torque) at http://www.arizonatools.com/catalog/...288-3069-3071/ .


130 ft-lbs is about what you torque the crank bolt back down to. To get it
off you will need considerably more than that.



> They
> range in price from around $40 to over $100. If the $40 version is quite
> adequate to do the pulley bolt, then with an air compressor I can see laying
> out
> the money for my own. Is such an inexpensive impact wrench worth the money?
>
> I realize a decent air compressor is another pile of dough. But I can find
> plenty more uses for it. E.g. inflating car and bike tires and blowing clean
> parts.
>
>

"E. Meyer" <e.meyerNOSPAM@ieee.org> spake unto the masses in
news:BC1CB461.3745A%e.meyerNOSPAM@ieee.org:

>
>
> 130 ft-lbs is about what you torque the crank bolt back down to. To
> get it off you will need considerably more than that.


My guess is around 500 ft lbs to crack it loose, which is why some people
have to use a 3/4" drive to do the job. Sometimes low-force shocks are much
better than high-force steady pressure.

I was lucky with mine. All it took was a few back-and-forths with a 250lb
electric 1/2" and out she came.

My mechanic tells me he has encountered some bolts that refused to budge
even when assaulted with a 3/4 incher. That's when the air hammer comes in.
(I erred earlier when I said the air hammer came after the 1/2").

--
TeGGeR®

"Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote
> "E. Meyer" <e.meyerNOSPAM@ieee.org> spake
> > 130 ft-lbs is about what you torque the crank bolt back down to. To
> > get it off you will need considerably more than that.
>
>
> My guess is around 500 ft lbs to crack it loose, which is why some people
> have to use a 3/4" drive to do the job. Sometimes low-force shocks are much
> better than high-force steady pressure.
>
> I was lucky with mine. All it took was a few back-and-forths with a 250lb
> electric 1/2" and out she came.

Just to double check, I gather that the direction of rotation of the crankshaft
is such as to tighten the pulley bolt.

Meaning when I go to re-assemble everything, if I get close to 130 ft-lbs., all
will likely be fine, as the torque on the bolt will slowly increase over time?

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 21:21:27 GMT, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Thanks all for the comments. I gather those of you who have an air impact wrench
>(with an air compressor) use it a lot? I can see using it for my tire rotations
>(with drive adapters as needed) but am not sure I'd use it for much else besides
>the pulley bolt, so I am leaning towards rental. Comments welcome.

Rent one.. You'll wonder how you lived without it and will eventually
buy one. If you goto a regular auto repair shop, you'll find they
make extensive use of air powered tools. One reason is speed, if it
takes them all day to do a Honda timing belt or tire rotation, they're
losing money. The other reason is that if you can avoid putting your
body into sub-optimal situations (like where you would slam your head
or fingers into a piece of metal if the wrench slips) and thus, not
risk injury when trying to break a really tight bolt loose. You can't
use air tools on everything, but they will sometimes save you a lot of
time and potential hurt.

The impact wrench turns out to be very handy for tire rotations, brake
jobs, timing belt crankshaft bolts, unbolting suspension parts, and
sometimes when using gear pullers. I find they are sometimes really
handy on brake calipers where I have a straight on shot if I turn my
steering wheel. Otherwise, I'd have to use a ratchet or box end
wrench which increases the likelyhood I'll slam my fingers into
something.

>Still, I see several 1/2-inch air impact wrenches (rated well over 130 ft-lbs of
>torque) at http://www.arizonatools.com/catalog/...288-3069-3071/ . They
>range in price from around $40 to over $100. If the $40 version is quite
>adequate to do the pulley bolt, then with an air compressor I can see laying out
>the money for my own. Is such an inexpensive impact wrench worth the money?

Sometimes, but I feel generally not. With air tools, it seems like
you really do get what you pay for.. If you have an "Air Tool Store"
in your town, visit them and try out a cheap one (think Harbor
Freight) and an expensive one.. I've generally found the more
expensive one is going to be smoother and have effortless power. The
Ingersoll Rand IR231 is $85 at Maxtools.com and will more than meet
your needs.

__________________
Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'.
N38.6 W121.4

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake unto the masses in
news:GBJJb.35455$Pg1.27388@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net:

>
> "Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote
>> "E. Meyer" <e.meyerNOSPAM@ieee.org> spake
>> > 130 ft-lbs is about what you torque the crank bolt back down to.
>> > To get it off you will need considerably more than that.
>>
>>
>> My guess is around 500 ft lbs to crack it loose, which is why some
>> people have to use a 3/4" drive to do the job. Sometimes low-force
>> shocks are much better than high-force steady pressure.
>>
>> I was lucky with mine. All it took was a few back-and-forths with a
>> 250lb electric 1/2" and out she came.
>
> Just to double check, I gather that the direction of rotation of the
> crankshaft is such as to tighten the pulley bolt.


Yup. That and rust are what make it such a hair-pulling exercise to get off
the next time.

If you're standing beside the driver's fender, looking across the car to
the passenger fender, the engine is turning counter-clockwise, or the top
of the timing belt going towards the front of the car. The new 1.7 engine
is the first Honda engine to run opposite to this direction.


>
> Meaning when I go to re-assemble everything, if I get close to 130
> ft-lbs., all will likely be fine, as the torque on the bolt will
> slowly increase over time?


If you have a torque wrench, it should be no problem getting the torque to
130 ft lbs. That's not really much, but it's hard to "feel" that amount of
torque unless you've done it a lot.

It's not a good idea to undertorque, especially if you don't really know
what you've actually tightened it to. The bolt CAN loosen off instead of
tighten. A neighbor of mine with a Prelude had just this happen. His bolt
came off on the freeway, as did the crank pulley. He was late getting home
that night...

--
TeGGeR®

"Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake
> > Just to double check, I gather that the direction of rotation of the
> > crankshaft is such as to tighten the pulley bolt.
>
> Yup. That and rust are what make it such a hair-pulling exercise to get off
> the next time.
>
> If you're standing beside the driver's fender, looking across the car to
> the passenger fender, the engine is turning counter-clockwise, or the top
> of the timing belt going towards the front of the car. The new 1.7 engine
> is the first Honda engine to run opposite to this direction.

Wait a second: The pulley bolt has a right-handed thread on a 1991 (and most or
all) Honda Civic(s), isn't it?

If so, and the engine rotates as you say, then the bolt will tend to be
unscrewed.

What am I missing?

> > Meaning when I go to re-assemble everything, if I get close to 130
> > ft-lbs., all will likely be fine, as the torque on the bolt will
> > slowly increase over time?
>
>
> If you have a torque wrench, it should be no problem getting the torque to
> 130 ft lbs. That's not really much, but it's hard to "feel" that amount of
> torque unless you've done it a lot.
>
> It's not a good idea to undertorque, especially if you don't really know
> what you've actually tightened it to. The bolt CAN loosen off instead of
> tighten. A neighbor of mine with a Prelude had just this happen. His bolt
> came off on the freeway, as did the crank pulley. He was late getting home
> that night...

Okay.

Barry, got your suggestion re air impact wrenches ('one gets what one pays for
in this case').

> Thanks all for the comments. I gather those of you who have an air impact wrench
> (with an air compressor) use it a lot? I can see using it for my tire rotations
> (with drive adapters as needed) but am not sure I'd use it for much else besides
> the pulley bolt, so I am leaning towards rental. Comments welcome.
>
> Still, I see several 1/2-inch air impact wrenches (rated well over 130 ft-lbs of
> torque) at http://www.arizonatools.com/catalog/...288-3069-3071/ . They
> range in price from around $40 to over $100. If the $40 version is quite
> adequate to do the pulley bolt, then with an air compressor I can see laying out
> the money for my own. Is such an inexpensive impact wrench worth the money?
>
> I realize a decent air compressor is another pile of dough. But I can find
> plenty more uses for it. E.g. inflating car and bike tires and blowing clean
> parts.

If you go the http://www.harborfreight.com you can find a range of air
compressors at a low cost. Even buying the compressor and the wrench you
probably pay less than having the dealer do the work.

On 4 Jan 2004 01:32:58 GMT, "Tegger®"
<teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote:

>"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake unto the masses in
>news:GBJJb.35455$Pg1.27388@newsread1.news.pas.ear thlink.net:
>
>>
>> "Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote
>>> "E. Meyer" <e.meyerNOSPAM@ieee.org> spake
>>> > 130 ft-lbs is about what you torque the crank bolt back down to.
>>> > To get it off you will need considerably more than that.
>>>
>>>
>>> My guess is around 500 ft lbs to crack it loose, which is why some
>>> people have to use a 3/4" drive to do the job. Sometimes low-force
>>> shocks are much better than high-force steady pressure.
>>>
>>> I was lucky with mine. All it took was a few back-and-forths with a
>>> 250lb electric 1/2" and out she came.
>>
>> Just to double check, I gather that the direction of rotation of the
>> crankshaft is such as to tighten the pulley bolt.
>
>
>Yup. That and rust are what make it such a hair-pulling exercise to get off
>the next time.
>
>If you're standing beside the driver's fender, looking across the car to
>the passenger fender, the engine is turning counter-clockwise, or the top
>of the timing belt going towards the front of the car. The new 1.7 engine
>is the first Honda engine to run opposite to this direction.
>
>
>>
>> Meaning when I go to re-assemble everything, if I get close to 130
>> ft-lbs., all will likely be fine, as the torque on the bolt will
>> slowly increase over time?

I recommend a 120 ft-lb torque stick. They are simply an extension
between the socket and the impact wrench that limits the torque so as
not to overtorque the bolt. I think you can buy them individually,
but they are usually sold in sets.

__________________
Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'.
N38.6 W121.4

Tegger,

I put the smilie face in there for a reason :-) But just picture the image!

Anyway, I think the best advantage of the air tool (for those who can
get ahold of one) is not having to bolt the flywheel in place, or put
the 'rope in the hole' because the nut cracks free before the engine
really gets a chance to turn over. Not suitable if the belt is already
broken, though.

Isn't that bolt tightened to ~180 ft. lb. ??

'Curly'

=======================

> TeGGeR® said:
> That caution is not realistic. An air impact gun is specifically designed
> to allow any able-bodied individuals to safely exert forces otherwise not
> possible for them. The gun will NOT "rip your arms off", as Curly does say
> later.
>
> An impact gun works by a series of rapidly applied shocks of very short
> duration, which is why it sounds the way it does. The shocks are of too
> short duration to overcome the mass of the engine, your arms or the gun
> itself. If you were to use a normal hand-drill, which applies steady
> torquing force, and you weren't holding on tightly enough, it WILL try to
> twist itself out of your hands as it tries to spin, since the duration of
> the torque application is the length of time you hold the trigger.
>
> A major drawback of the breaker bar method is that, if improperly applied,
> you risk damage to the engine mounts. There's a reason all garages use air
> impact tools.
>
> If you can swing the compressor rental (easy enough in most locales),
> that's the best way to go, hands down.
>
>