Honda Car Forum

Dean said for all posterity...
> "John Smith" <some1@microsoft.com> wrote in message news:64xpb.99454
> > 4. General lack of information in the display and therefore lack of
> > control.
> >
> > When AUTO is on, it's ok to have only temperature levels displayed,
> > because> I realize that fan speed, temperature and modes are
> > dynamically changed depending on outside conditions and temp settings.
> > But as I turn off AUTO, I assume that these dynamic values are become
> > fixed, but I have no idea what they are. No fan or mode display at the
> > moment as well as AC ON or OFF indication.
>
> Probably designed by the same engineering bozos who left out the radio
> station display. When you're changing stations, it displays the radio
> station, but once the it displays the clock, there's no button to display
> the radio station again. (well, you can push the bass/treble/bal/fade button
> 5 times, but that's a pretty dumb workaround).

What bozos are you talking about?

The OP that you replied to said:

"Hello, this posting is applicable to 2003 EX model with climate
control but without NAVI."

My 2003 EX without NAVI displays the clock and radio station all
the time. The volume control will temporarily override the
station number, but only for a few seconds.

So, I'm thinking you must have the NAVI.



Casey

"What happens if you get scared half to death twice?"
-Steven Wright

dbrebell, thank you for your input,
i admit, example with "fan speed nearly 0" was not the best. more likely
situation is setting the temp below outside with AC off. i understand that
system will try to cool down as much as possible, but displayed temperature
values would make no use because they reflect something which cannot be
achieved in current conditions. making those values even lower does not
change anything. so, in my opinion, this nonlinear behavior does create a
confusion. well....., this was questionable matter, but below i describe
straight forward example of the confusion....

1. "auto" light on button is ON and "auto" indicator is ON.
2. pressing IntCirc button makes "auto light and indicator to go off, and
light on IntCirc button to come up.
3.pressing IntCirc button again makes light to go off but AUTO indication is
not restored.

now comes the question: is system in full AUTO mode after step 3 or not ?
if yes, then where is the indication, if no then what mode is it in and why
?

"dbrebel" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:kiqgqv8fj77obnf17j71raedsblj4frcei@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:58:35 -0500, "Dave Breda" <daveb@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >dbrebell,
> >these are quite plausible statements, but it's hard to imagine how
climate
> >control would work if some (one or more) parameters overridden ? e.g. how
> >anything would function if fan speed is fixed at nearly 0 ?
> >
>
> Well, that's how it works... if you set the fan speed at nearly 0,
> it's not going to do a very good job of climate control, but it'll do
> what it can based on what you've set. Honda has to design the system
> to work in semi-automatic mode regardless of how you manually override
> some setting, and they can't save you from yourself if you use the
> system in an illogical manner.
>
> Based on how the system operates on automatic, I doubt that many
> people would use the fan control to turn the fan speed down, since it
> goes WAY down all by itself. It's more likely that they'd turn the
> fan speed up, particularly if they're trying to clear very foggy
> windows or keep the windshield clear of snow or ice.
>
> >by the way, i have the same car, and i am confused with mode "auto"
itself.
> >when I turn the car on i have only temp values displayed, neither "auto"
> >indicator is displayed nor "ac on/off","mode","fan". based on your idea
it's
> >already auto mode because no overridden values are on. now, when i press
> >button "auto" indicator "auto" is displayed, so it means I have
overridden
> >what ....."auto" i had by default ????
> >
>
> Don't know what you did... mine always starts up in auto unless I've
> overridden something. Without watching you work the unit, it's
> impossible to guess what you've done. The things that you override
> are fan speed, mode and a/c on/off, and all display the set value when
> you do.
>
> What happens if you make sure that auto is on before you turn the car
> off? How is the system set when you start the car again?
>

"Casey" <cclremovethispart@cox.net> wrote in message news:KA%pb.9387
> My 2003 EX without NAVI displays the clock and radio station all
> the time. The volume control will temporarily override the
> station number, but only for a few seconds.

I should have been more specific: the Civic radio does not display radio
station after 5 seconds.

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 10:41:55 -0500, "Dave Breda" <daveb@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>dbrebell, thank you for your input,
>i admit, example with "fan speed nearly 0" was not the best. more likely
>situation is setting the temp below outside with AC off. i understand that
>system will try to cool down as much as possible, but displayed temperature
>values would make no use because they reflect something which cannot be
>achieved in current conditions. making those values even lower does not
>change anything. so, in my opinion, this nonlinear behavior does create a
>confusion. well....., this was questionable matter, but below i describe
>straight forward example of the confusion....
>
>1. "auto" light on button is ON and "auto" indicator is ON.
>2. pressing IntCirc button makes "auto light and indicator to go off, and
>light on IntCirc button to come up.
>3.pressing IntCirc button again makes light to go off but AUTO indication is
>not restored.
>
>now comes the question: is system in full AUTO mode after step 3 or not ?
>if yes, then where is the indication, if no then what mode is it in and why
>?
It's not in full AUTO mode at that point. It's going to be forced to
control the temperature as best it can without recirculating cabin
air. It IS working the same way it was in your step #1, when AUTO was
illuminated, but the AUTO light did not come on after your step #3
because at that point the system no longer has control over the
recirculation -- you have MANUALLY turned recirculate OFF. To get
back to full AUTO, you would have to press the AUTO button. The way
the indicators are lit and the status of the AC system as you describe
it makes perfect sense to me. I don't think it's confusing or
illogical.

>"dbrebel" <none@none.com> wrote in message
>news:kiqgqv8fj77obnf17j71raedsblj4frcei@4ax.com.. .
>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:58:35 -0500, "Dave Breda" <daveb@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >dbrebell,
>> >these are quite plausible statements, but it's hard to imagine how
>climate
>> >control would work if some (one or more) parameters overridden ? e.g. how
>> >anything would function if fan speed is fixed at nearly 0 ?
>> >
>>
>> Well, that's how it works... if you set the fan speed at nearly 0,
>> it's not going to do a very good job of climate control, but it'll do
>> what it can based on what you've set. Honda has to design the system
>> to work in semi-automatic mode regardless of how you manually override
>> some setting, and they can't save you from yourself if you use the
>> system in an illogical manner.
>>
>> Based on how the system operates on automatic, I doubt that many
>> people would use the fan control to turn the fan speed down, since it
>> goes WAY down all by itself. It's more likely that they'd turn the
>> fan speed up, particularly if they're trying to clear very foggy
>> windows or keep the windshield clear of snow or ice.
>>
>> >by the way, i have the same car, and i am confused with mode "auto"
>itself.
>> >when I turn the car on i have only temp values displayed, neither "auto"
>> >indicator is displayed nor "ac on/off","mode","fan". based on your idea
>it's
>> >already auto mode because no overridden values are on. now, when i press
>> >button "auto" indicator "auto" is displayed, so it means I have
>overridden
>> >what ....."auto" i had by default ????
>> >
>>
>> Don't know what you did... mine always starts up in auto unless I've
>> overridden something. Without watching you work the unit, it's
>> impossible to guess what you've done. The things that you override
>> are fan speed, mode and a/c on/off, and all display the set value when
>> you do.
>>
>> What happens if you make sure that auto is on before you turn the car
>> off? How is the system set when you start the car again?
>>
>

Ron

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 10:41:55 -0500, "Dave Breda" <daveb@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>dbrebell, thank you for your input,
>i admit, example with "fan speed nearly 0" was not the best. more likely
>situation is setting the temp below outside with AC off. i understand that
>system will try to cool down as much as possible, but displayed temperature
>values would make no use because they reflect something which cannot be
>achieved in current conditions. making those values even lower does not
>change anything. so, in my opinion, this nonlinear behavior does create a
>confusion. well....., this was questionable matter, but below i describe
>straight forward example of the confusion....
>
>1. "auto" light on button is ON and "auto" indicator is ON.
>2. pressing IntCirc button makes "auto light and indicator to go off, and
>light on IntCirc button to come up.
>3.pressing IntCirc button again makes light to go off but AUTO indication is
>not restored.
>
>now comes the question: is system in full AUTO mode after step 3 or not ?
>if yes, then where is the indication, if no then what mode is it in and why
>?
>

Milleron answered the AUTO question very well... thanks!

As for the statement about the temperature with the A/C off, it's
pretty much like the earlier fan question. There are so many
combinations of settings that you could use that it would be kinda
ridiculous to have all kinds of special behavior when you override
something. The question I have to ask is... what would you consider a
logical way for the system to react when you turn the A/C off? Should
it prevent you from setting the temp lower than outside temp? And
what about if you already have the temp set lower when you turn the
A/C off? Is the display supposed to jump to outside temp?

No, neither of those scenarios make sense, and would really be
confusing, because suddenly the temp controls would be nonlinear. The
temperature settings are just that, settings, and not a temperature
gauge. As with many things in a car, Honda has to rely on a measure
of common sense in people, and that they'd understand that, regardless
of the temp setting, you're not going to lower than outside temp if
you turn the A/C off. It's really no different than your thermostat
at home... you can set the temperature down to 60 degrees, but if you
don't have the A/C turned on, you'll never get there.

It may not make perfect sense to you, but it does to me. And I can't
imagine how they could change the control behavior to make more sense.

agreed, your explanation totally make sense to me, thank you

"Milleron" <millerdot90@SPAMlessosu.edu> wrote in message
news:ml6jqv0t0vjf0jgrsg3e4j1g7uaptv69k9@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 10:41:55 -0500, "Dave Breda" <daveb@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >dbrebell, thank you for your input,
> >i admit, example with "fan speed nearly 0" was not the best. more likely
> >situation is setting the temp below outside with AC off. i understand
that
> >system will try to cool down as much as possible, but displayed
temperature
> >values would make no use because they reflect something which cannot be
> >achieved in current conditions. making those values even lower does not
> >change anything. so, in my opinion, this nonlinear behavior does create a
> >confusion. well....., this was questionable matter, but below i describe
> >straight forward example of the confusion....
> >
> >1. "auto" light on button is ON and "auto" indicator is ON.
> >2. pressing IntCirc button makes "auto light and indicator to go off,
and
> >light on IntCirc button to come up.
> >3.pressing IntCirc button again makes light to go off but AUTO indication
is
> >not restored.
> >
> >now comes the question: is system in full AUTO mode after step 3 or not
?
> >if yes, then where is the indication, if no then what mode is it in and
why
> >?
> It's not in full AUTO mode at that point. It's going to be forced to
> control the temperature as best it can without recirculating cabin
> air. It IS working the same way it was in your step #1, when AUTO was
> illuminated, but the AUTO light did not come on after your step #3
> because at that point the system no longer has control over the
> recirculation -- you have MANUALLY turned recirculate OFF. To get
> back to full AUTO, you would have to press the AUTO button. The way
> the indicators are lit and the status of the AC system as you describe
> it makes perfect sense to me. I don't think it's confusing or
> illogical.
>
> >"dbrebel" <none@none.com> wrote in message
> >news:kiqgqv8fj77obnf17j71raedsblj4frcei@4ax.com.. .
> >> On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:58:35 -0500, "Dave Breda" <daveb@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >dbrebell,
> >> >these are quite plausible statements, but it's hard to imagine how
> >climate
> >> >control would work if some (one or more) parameters overridden ? e.g.
how
> >> >anything would function if fan speed is fixed at nearly 0 ?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Well, that's how it works... if you set the fan speed at nearly 0,
> >> it's not going to do a very good job of climate control, but it'll do
> >> what it can based on what you've set. Honda has to design the system
> >> to work in semi-automatic mode regardless of how you manually override
> >> some setting, and they can't save you from yourself if you use the
> >> system in an illogical manner.
> >>
> >> Based on how the system operates on automatic, I doubt that many
> >> people would use the fan control to turn the fan speed down, since it
> >> goes WAY down all by itself. It's more likely that they'd turn the
> >> fan speed up, particularly if they're trying to clear very foggy
> >> windows or keep the windshield clear of snow or ice.
> >>
> >> >by the way, i have the same car, and i am confused with mode "auto"
> >itself.
> >> >when I turn the car on i have only temp values displayed, neither
"auto"
> >> >indicator is displayed nor "ac on/off","mode","fan". based on your
idea
> >it's
> >> >already auto mode because no overridden values are on. now, when i
press
> >> >button "auto" indicator "auto" is displayed, so it means I have
> >overridden
> >> >what ....."auto" i had by default ????
> >> >
> >>
> >> Don't know what you did... mine always starts up in auto unless I've
> >> overridden something. Without watching you work the unit, it's
> >> impossible to guess what you've done. The things that you override
> >> are fan speed, mode and a/c on/off, and all display the set value when
> >> you do.
> >>
> >> What happens if you make sure that auto is on before you turn the car
> >> off? How is the system set when you start the car again?
> >>
> >
>
> Ron

My auto climate works great and the full auto and semi-auto works as
described here (which I like). I like the fact that I choose the mode
I like and still get the auto controlling the temp and fan speeds.

Mine does NOT revert to Auto when I shut off the car. It comes back on
exactly like it was when I shut it off. If I've set on of the
controls, it comes back on the same way. I like this and it would
annoy me if I had to reset it to my liking everytime I started up the
car.

Pushing Auto of course resets everything to automatic settings.



On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 03:23:14 GMT, dbrebel <none@none.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:58:35 -0500, "Dave Breda" <daveb@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>dbrebell,
>>these are quite plausible statements, but it's hard to imagine how climate
>>control would work if some (one or more) parameters overridden ? e.g. how
>>anything would function if fan speed is fixed at nearly 0 ?
>>
>
>Well, that's how it works... if you set the fan speed at nearly 0,
>it's not going to do a very good job of climate control, but it'll do
>what it can based on what you've set. Honda has to design the system
>to work in semi-automatic mode regardless of how you manually override
>some setting, and they can't save you from yourself if you use the
>system in an illogical manner.
>
>Based on how the system operates on automatic, I doubt that many
>people would use the fan control to turn the fan speed down, since it
>goes WAY down all by itself. It's more likely that they'd turn the
>fan speed up, particularly if they're trying to clear very foggy
>windows or keep the windshield clear of snow or ice.
>
>>by the way, i have the same car, and i am confused with mode "auto" itself.
>>when I turn the car on i have only temp values displayed, neither "auto"
>>indicator is displayed nor "ac on/off","mode","fan". based on your idea it's
>>already auto mode because no overridden values are on. now, when i press
>>button "auto" indicator "auto" is displayed, so it means I have overridden
>>what ....."auto" i had by default ????
>>
>
>Don't know what you did... mine always starts up in auto unless I've
>overridden something. Without watching you work the unit, it's
>impossible to guess what you've done. The things that you override
>are fan speed, mode and a/c on/off, and all display the set value when
>you do.
>
>What happens if you make sure that auto is on before you turn the car
>off? How is the system set when you start the car again?

drrebell, i agree with Milleron, but if you ask me what could be possibly
done if automatic system is off to avoid any confusion, the answer is
simple, and you don't have to strain your imagination. system should act
like conventional A/C :

DISPLAY LEVEL OF HEATING which is absolutely certain rather than DISPLAYING
TEMPERATURE which is in some conditions could be in fact meaningless or
abstract.

"dbrebel" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:ipbkqvojdp1qbjm5btn72enena5jvk6tm6@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 10:41:55 -0500, "Dave Breda" <daveb@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >dbrebell, thank you for your input,
> >i admit, example with "fan speed nearly 0" was not the best. more likely
> >situation is setting the temp below outside with AC off. i understand
that
> >system will try to cool down as much as possible, but displayed
temperature
> >values would make no use because they reflect something which cannot be
> >achieved in current conditions. making those values even lower does not
> >change anything. so, in my opinion, this nonlinear behavior does create a
> >confusion. well....., this was questionable matter, but below i describe
> >straight forward example of the confusion....
> >
> >1. "auto" light on button is ON and "auto" indicator is ON.
> >2. pressing IntCirc button makes "auto light and indicator to go off,
and
> >light on IntCirc button to come up.
> >3.pressing IntCirc button again makes light to go off but AUTO indication
is
> >not restored.
> >
> >now comes the question: is system in full AUTO mode after step 3 or not
?
> >if yes, then where is the indication, if no then what mode is it in and
why
> >?
> >
>
> Milleron answered the AUTO question very well... thanks!
>
> As for the statement about the temperature with the A/C off, it's
> pretty much like the earlier fan question. There are so many
> combinations of settings that you could use that it would be kinda
> ridiculous to have all kinds of special behavior when you override
> something. The question I have to ask is... what would you consider a
> logical way for the system to react when you turn the A/C off? Should
> it prevent you from setting the temp lower than outside temp? And
> what about if you already have the temp set lower when you turn the
> A/C off? Is the display supposed to jump to outside temp?
>
> No, neither of those scenarios make sense, and would really be
> confusing, because suddenly the temp controls would be nonlinear. The
> temperature settings are just that, settings, and not a temperature
> gauge. As with many things in a car, Honda has to rely on a measure
> of common sense in people, and that they'd understand that, regardless
> of the temp setting, you're not going to lower than outside temp if
> you turn the A/C off. It's really no different than your thermostat
> at home... you can set the temperature down to 60 degrees, but if you
> don't have the A/C turned on, you'll never get there.
>
> It may not make perfect sense to you, but it does to me. And I can't
> imagine how they could change the control behavior to make more sense.

Folks,

this discussion came to interesting question.....is it actually possible to
make discussed system to act like "conventional A/C" ? I bet NOT. And
otherwise was the wrong assumption at the first place.

Think about it...temperature is the only parameter you cannot "override".
This could mean that temperature sensor may be always ON !!! In other words
you cannot have control over "level of heating" regardless. Well, except
probably situations when you have "HI" or "LO" settings.

JS


"Dave Breda" <daveb@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mrwqb.100902$PD3.5350958@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> drrebell, i agree with Milleron, but if you ask me what could be possibly
> done if automatic system is off to avoid any confusion, the answer is
> simple, and you don't have to strain your imagination. system should act
> like conventional A/C :
>
> DISPLAY LEVEL OF HEATING which is absolutely certain rather than
DISPLAYING
> TEMPERATURE which is in some conditions could be in fact meaningless or
> abstract.
>
> "dbrebel" <none@none.com> wrote in message
> news:ipbkqvojdp1qbjm5btn72enena5jvk6tm6@4ax.com...
> > On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 10:41:55 -0500, "Dave Breda" <daveb@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >dbrebell, thank you for your input,
> > >i admit, example with "fan speed nearly 0" was not the best. more
likely
> > >situation is setting the temp below outside with AC off. i understand
> that
> > >system will try to cool down as much as possible, but displayed
> temperature
> > >values would make no use because they reflect something which cannot be
> > >achieved in current conditions. making those values even lower does not
> > >change anything. so, in my opinion, this nonlinear behavior does create
a
> > >confusion. well....., this was questionable matter, but below i
describe
> > >straight forward example of the confusion....
> > >
> > >1. "auto" light on button is ON and "auto" indicator is ON.
> > >2. pressing IntCirc button makes "auto light and indicator to go off,
> and
> > >light on IntCirc button to come up.
> > >3.pressing IntCirc button again makes light to go off but AUTO
indication
> is
> > >not restored.
> > >
> > >now comes the question: is system in full AUTO mode after step 3 or
not
> ?
> > >if yes, then where is the indication, if no then what mode is it in and
> why
> > >?
> > >
> >
> > Milleron answered the AUTO question very well... thanks!
> >
> > As for the statement about the temperature with the A/C off, it's
> > pretty much like the earlier fan question. There are so many
> > combinations of settings that you could use that it would be kinda
> > ridiculous to have all kinds of special behavior when you override
> > something. The question I have to ask is... what would you consider a
> > logical way for the system to react when you turn the A/C off? Should
> > it prevent you from setting the temp lower than outside temp? And
> > what about if you already have the temp set lower when you turn the
> > A/C off? Is the display supposed to jump to outside temp?
> >
> > No, neither of those scenarios make sense, and would really be
> > confusing, because suddenly the temp controls would be nonlinear. The
> > temperature settings are just that, settings, and not a temperature
> > gauge. As with many things in a car, Honda has to rely on a measure
> > of common sense in people, and that they'd understand that, regardless
> > of the temp setting, you're not going to lower than outside temp if
> > you turn the A/C off. It's really no different than your thermostat
> > at home... you can set the temperature down to 60 degrees, but if you
> > don't have the A/C turned on, you'll never get there.
> >
> > It may not make perfect sense to you, but it does to me. And I can't
> > imagine how they could change the control behavior to make more sense.
>
>

On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 13:29:08 -0500, "Dave Breda" <daveb@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>drrebell, i agree with Milleron, but if you ask me what could be possibly
>done if automatic system is off to avoid any confusion, the answer is
>simple, and you don't have to strain your imagination. system should act
>like conventional A/C :
>
>DISPLAY LEVEL OF HEATING which is absolutely certain rather than DISPLAYING
>TEMPERATURE which is in some conditions could be in fact meaningless or
>abstract.
>

That solution didn't occur to me. I guess such a way of thinking
pretty much requires that a person considers the way it's done to be
confusing. And the bottom line is, I don't. I feel that the lack of
consistency and added complexity in control operation has more
potential to confuse than the abstraction employed.

And it's not as if Honda invented this approach... automatic climate
control systems have used the "set the desired temperature" control
paradigm for years in systems from just about every auto manufacturer.
Apparently there haven't been enough complaints about how confusing
this paradigm is to prompt any of the manufacturers to change it.

So let's just say that I respect your viewpoint, but personally prefer
things the way they are.