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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 28 Jul 2012, 02:30 pm
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: ILX - any comments?

In article <f49818996096gh0ivqbecdrb9aqv3s9lel@4ax.com>,
JRStern <JRStern@foobar.invalid> wrote:

> Anybody hereabouts have any comments on the new ILX, any model?
>
> I'm actually thinking it might be what I've been looking for, a
> slightly fancier Civic, something smaller than an Accord. The TSX
> never quite did it for me.
>
> J.


So specifically what about the European Accord-based TSX (smaller than
American Accord) was somehow lacking compared to the ILX, which is just
a Civic with leather seats and better audio and a 4 year warranty sold
by a dealership with higher overhead and a *more* expensive service
department?

SOMEBODY has to pay for the Acura dealer goodies that the Honda dealer
doesn't have, and that's the sucker who buys the car.

And the ILX is so transparently nothing more Honda's Cimarron:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Cimarron

Cadillac failed horribly when they gave this treatment to GM's entry
level economy car (Chevy Citation), and now Honda goes down the same
path?

Honda's management has SERIOUSLY put their heads in the sand. You could
probably ask them directly about why they think this is any different
than the Cimarron situation, and they'd specifically deny having any
knowledge of the Cimarron--which we all know is pure bullshit. Honda
thinks THEY can do something that Cadillac couldn't do, because Honda
thinks they're better. Honda thinks they can fool the buyers like this,
and that the buyers are such idiots they'll respond in droves.

Civic Si w/nav and 18" alloys (factory leather not available), $27K
MSRP. ILX 6 speed manual (nee Civic Si) with factory included leather
plus a few goodies, $31K MSRP.

Or Civic Si w/nav and 18" alloys and aftermarket leather for less than
$31K MSRP.

I'm deadly serious: what about a TSX is inferior to the ILX? And why
pay a few thou more for the Acura badge when buying a Civic Si (for
example)?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 28 Jul 2012, 06:48 pm
Dave Garrett
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: ILX - any comments?

In article <elmop-55FF74.15301028072012@news.eternal-september.org>,
elmop@nastydesigns.com says...

> So specifically what about the European Accord-based TSX (smaller than
> American Accord) was somehow lacking compared to the ILX, which is just
> a Civic with leather seats and better audio and a 4 year warranty sold
> by a dealership with higher overhead and a *more* expensive service
> department?
>
> SOMEBODY has to pay for the Acura dealer goodies that the Honda dealer
> doesn't have, and that's the sucker who buys the car.
>
> And the ILX is so transparently nothing more Honda's Cimarron:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Cimarron
>
> Cadillac failed horribly when they gave this treatment to GM's entry
> level economy car (Chevy Citation), and now Honda goes down the same
> path?
>
> Honda's management has SERIOUSLY put their heads in the sand. You could
> probably ask them directly about why they think this is any different
> than the Cimarron situation, and they'd specifically deny having any
> knowledge of the Cimarron--which we all know is pure bullshit. Honda
> thinks THEY can do something that Cadillac couldn't do, because Honda
> thinks they're better. Honda thinks they can fool the buyers like this,
> and that the buyers are such idiots they'll respond in droves.
>
> Civic Si w/nav and 18" alloys (factory leather not available), $27K
> MSRP. ILX 6 speed manual (nee Civic Si) with factory included leather
> plus a few goodies, $31K MSRP.
>
> Or Civic Si w/nav and 18" alloys and aftermarket leather for less than
> $31K MSRP.
>
> I'm deadly serious: what about a TSX is inferior to the ILX? And why
> pay a few thou more for the Acura badge when buying a Civic Si (for
> example)?


I haven't driven the new Civic Si yet, but based on what I've read about
the engine I'm wondering why they even bothered to call it an Si. From
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Civic_Si#2012):

"The 9th generation Civic Si comes in a Coupe and a Sedan. The most
notable difference from the previous generation is the engine upgrade.
The Civic Si now features a K24Z7, 11.0:1 Compression, 2.4L 201 hp
engine (a higher compression version of the one found in the Honda CR-V)
capable of producing 170 lbft (230 Nm) of torque. The peak torque can
be achieved at a much lower rpm as well, 4400 rpm vs the previous 6000
rpm. Due to the increased stroke implimented to increase midrange
torque, the redline has been reduced to 7000 rpm, with a fuel cut at
7200 rpm."

So Honda essentially took the most distinguishing feature of an Si, a
high-revving engine with its power output concentrated at the top end,
and drastically changed its character with a longer stroke, trading revs
for torque. And you get to pay almost $30K for the privilege of owning
one. No thanks.

Dave
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 28 Jul 2012, 09:02 pm
JRStern
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: ILX - any comments?

On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 15:30:10 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>So specifically what about the European Accord-based TSX (smaller than
>American Accord) was somehow lacking compared to the ILX, which is just
>a Civic with leather seats and better audio and a 4 year warranty sold
>by a dealership with higher overhead and a *more* expensive service
>department?


Well, only that it *was* just a smaller Accord and not noticeably
sportier or much of anything-ier and did carry a couple of grand for
the badge.

>SOMEBODY has to pay for the Acura dealer goodies that the Honda dealer
>doesn't have, and that's the sucker who buys the car.
>
>And the ILX is so transparently nothing more Honda's Cimarron:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Cimarron
>
>Cadillac failed horribly when they gave this treatment to GM's entry
>level economy car (Chevy Citation), and now Honda goes down the same
>path?


Chevy Cavalier, but yeah.

>Honda's management has SERIOUSLY put their heads in the sand. You could
>probably ask them directly about why they think this is any different
>than the Cimarron situation, and they'd specifically deny having any
>knowledge of the Cimarron--which we all know is pure bullshit. Honda
>thinks THEY can do something that Cadillac couldn't do, because Honda
>thinks they're better. Honda thinks they can fool the buyers like this,
>and that the buyers are such idiots they'll respond in droves.


Wull yeah, but that's what they do with Acura these days, sell the TL
as a barely discernible difference from the Accord.

So my question is, anything new or better about this one?

I'm sensing that you think not.

>Civic Si w/nav and 18" alloys (factory leather not available), $27K
>MSRP. ILX 6 speed manual (nee Civic Si) with factory included leather
>plus a few goodies, $31K MSRP.
>
>Or Civic Si w/nav and 18" alloys and aftermarket leather for less than
>$31K MSRP.
>
>I'm deadly serious: what about a TSX is inferior to the ILX? And why
>pay a few thou more for the Acura badge when buying a Civic Si (for
>example)?


Cuz the base ILX is only about $26k, and comes with a little more
gingerbread and warranty and whatnot. And maybe I'm even willing to
pay about $59 for the badge.

Well, I went and sat in one a couple of hours ago on the showroom
floor, battery disconnected so I couldn't even adjust the seats, but
right off the view forward seems awfully narrow vertically compared to
my 2010 Accord. Are all the Civics that constrained? Ugh.

I like the feature list. They are trying to keep the price down. BUT
they do seem to have forgotten there has to be a car under all those
optimized gingerbread options.

There was a white TSX wagon sitting next to it on the showroom floor,
roof rack with surfboards to set the mood. Y'know what, I noticed a
TSX wagon on the road the other day, and that's a nice looking car. I
have no particular need for a wagon and don't surf, but it still
seemed to have more panache than the base TSX.

I just keep falling back to the midline Accords as the best deal in
the line, and it just seems so disappointing, maybe I need to go try a
Beamer or something, ... but the Accords are such a screaming value,
going anywhere else costs at least modest bucks.

The ILX engine choices - a 2.0 with 150hp, a bit slow on the road
these days, or the 2.4 out of the Accord, very strokey and boring.
Can't they let the 2.0 rev like the S2000 and at least pretend to
deliver 200hp? Or Cthulhu forbid put a turbo on it? Or even the
electric assist but tuned for performance rather than just economy?
Maybe next year, but my lease is coming up now. Anyway maybe it
doesn't matter, Acura's idea of "sporty" has always been to lower the
suspension half an inch and the roofline two inches, when the market
has been screaming for *taller* cars for years, sporty or not. I miss
my 1999 CL, curious boattail styling with almost a bubble cabin but it
all *worked*, at least for me. If Acura put that styling onto the
Civic platform, with some zippier engine, that would be the ticket for
me. But at least I want the paddle shifters (which the ILX has), cuz
the Accord's non-responsiveness is driving me nutz. Seems the only
Honda offering the shifters is the V6 coupe. Hey, I don't suppose
those can be added by the dealer to an i4 sedan? Hmm.

J.

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 28 Jul 2012, 09:25 pm
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: ILX - any comments?

In article <575918h8kftmqoddnib7hc69viabegbt4o@4ax.com>,
JRStern <JRStern@foobar.invalid> wrote:

> I just keep falling back to the midline Accords as the best deal in
> the line, and it just seems so disappointing, maybe I need to go try a
> Beamer or something, ... but the Accords are such a screaming value,
> going anywhere else costs at least modest bucks.


Then go also look at the new Camry and the new Altima, and evaluate
those fresh designs and their values against the current Accord.

Car and Driver absolutely loved the new Camry (um, maybe they focused on
the sport model, I forget) and the new Altima looks like a killer deal.

(Beemers are the motorcycles; the cars are Bimmers.)
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 30 Jul 2012, 03:08 pm
Scott W
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: ILX - any comments?

Altima is nice if you can get over the CV tranny.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote in message
news:elmop-447801.22252228072012@news.eternal-september.org...

In article <575918h8kftmqoddnib7hc69viabegbt4o@4ax.com>,
JRStern <JRStern@foobar.invalid> wrote:

> I just keep falling back to the midline Accords as the best deal in
> the line, and it just seems so disappointing, maybe I need to go try a
> Beamer or something, ... but the Accords are such a screaming value,
> going anywhere else costs at least modest bucks.


Then go also look at the new Camry and the new Altima, and evaluate
those fresh designs and their values against the current Accord.

Car and Driver absolutely loved the new Camry (um, maybe they focused on
the sport model, I forget) and the new Altima looks like a killer deal.

(Beemers are the motorcycles; the cars are Bimmers.)

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 30 Jul 2012, 04:31 pm
Howard Lester
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: ILX - any comments?

"Scott W" wrote

> Altima is nice if you can get over the CV tranny.


What don't *you* like about a CV transmission?
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 30 Jul 2012, 05:51 pm
Scott W
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: ILX - any comments?

Everything.

"Howard Lester" wrote in message news:jv6ui0$vak$1@dont-email.me...

"Scott W" wrote

> Altima is nice if you can get over the CV tranny.


What don't *you* like about a CV transmission?
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 30 Jul 2012, 08:02 pm
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: ILX - any comments?

In article <DfCdnVkF2bmcjYrNnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@earthlink.com> ,
"Scott W" <ScottW2000@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Howard Lester" wrote in message news:jv6ui0$vak$1@dont-email.me...
>
> "Scott W" wrote
>
> > Altima is nice if you can get over the CV tranny.

>
> What don't *you* like about a CV transmission?
>
> Everything.


Specifically, we mean.

It's an automatic transmission. What don't you like about a CVT vs. a
traditional geared automatic transmission?
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 31 Jul 2012, 10:16 am
Howard Lester
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: ILX - any comments?

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote

>> What don't *you* like about a CV transmission?
>>
>> Everything.


> Specifically, we mean.
>
> It's an automatic transmission. What don't you like about a CVT vs. a
> traditional geared automatic transmission?


To follow on, the reason I ask is because the new (2013 - ) Accords'
automatics will be CVT, and I'm considering buying one next year or the
following.

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 31 Jul 2012, 11:33 am
Alan Bowler
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: ILX - any comments?

On 7/30/2012 6:51 PM, Scott W wrote:
> What don't *you* like about a CV transmission?


He's probably just echoing the automotive journalists
that almost all hate CVTs. The like the jerkier acceleration
you get with transmissions that shift actual gears. It feels
to them that they get to speed faster even though they don't.
With a CVT when you step in the gas you get a more or less
steady acceleration rate. With gear shifting you get alternating
periods of high and low (or zero) acceleration for an average
that is about the same or a little less than the CVT. However,
the journalist remembers the feel of being pushed back harder
into the seat during the higher parts of the cycle and so
is more impressed.

There is the other effect that since you don't need quite
as high acceleration periods, and the engine can stay closer to
its best performance speed, CVT equiped cars can usually
be built with lower horsepower (more fuel effiecient) engines.
Journalists are always very impressed with higher horsepower
numbers, even if they result in higher fuel costs and no
better useful performance.
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