Honda Car Forum

I write:
|around town, however, the car will start when jumpe started. Car is towed home

OPPS. This should say the car will **NOT** start when jumped started.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|The details (long):
|In the last few weeks, the car has died on multiple occasions around town
|and on a long road trip. The car would just lose power. Pull off the road and
|am not able to start it. In all cases it was a drained battery. Charge
|it up or jump start it and we're good to go. Same thing happens recently
|around town, however, the car will start when jumpe started. Car is towed home
|and we charge battery fully. The car cranks vigoriously, but will not start!
|This is now the second alternator so I no longer think this is the cause (at
|least not directly). As mentioned above, I've eliminated a few possibilities
|and figure it might be (in order of likelyhood) - ECU (computer), main relay,
|or injectors.

How many miles on the car?

I haven't heard of the main fuel relay failing twice. (Though I guess with
enough years and miles, it will.) I think there was a defect in the original
one in this year's Hondas. Subsequent relays don't have this defect.

Check and consider replacing: spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap and
rotor. This is around $100 in parts and very little labor.

Have you ever replaced the distributor coil on this car? If not, consider
doing so. It may not be the problem but your car is probably due for a new
one, so it's probably worthwhile. Max. of about $100 in parts and another
$100 in labor.

Same for the ignitor (a.k.a. ignition module). Also max. of about $100 in
parts and another $100 in labor.

How old's the battery (years and miles)? I ask because it may be
complicating the above problems.


"Gary H" <garyhgaryh@yahoo.com> wrote
> I write:
> |around town, however, the car will start when jumpe started. Car is
towed home
>
> OPPS. This should say the car will **NOT** start when jumped started.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> |The details (long):
> |In the last few weeks, the car has died on multiple occasions around town
> |and on a long road trip. The car would just lose power. Pull off the
road and
> |am not able to start it. In all cases it was a drained battery. Charge
> |it up or jump start it and we're good to go. Same thing happens recently
> |around town, however, the car will start when jumpe started. Car is
towed home
> |and we charge battery fully. The car cranks vigoriously, but will not
start!
> |This is now the second alternator so I no longer think this is the cause
(at
> |least not directly). As mentioned above, I've eliminated a few
possibilities
> |and figure it might be (in order of likelyhood) - ECU (computer), main
relay,
> |or injectors.

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:36:03 GMT, "Caliban"
<caliban03nospam@earthlink.net> wrote:

>How many miles on the car?
>
>I haven't heard of the main fuel relay failing twice. (Though I guess with
>enough years and miles, it will.) I think there was a defect in the original
>one in this year's Hondas. Subsequent relays don't have this defect.
>
>Check and consider replacing: spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap and
>rotor. This is around $100 in parts and very little labor.
>
>Have you ever replaced the distributor coil on this car? If not, consider
>doing so. It may not be the problem but your car is probably due for a new
>one, so it's probably worthwhile. Max. of about $100 in parts and another
>$100 in labor.
>
>Same for the ignitor (a.k.a. ignition module). Also max. of about $100 in
>parts and another $100 in labor.
>
>How old's the battery (years and miles)? I ask because it may be
>complicating the above problems.

Gary said he was getting spark which would seem to rule out these
ignition parts and he said it cranks well so the battery must be OK.

Hey Gary, how did you check the spark? Was it strong or merely
present?

I would be tempted to put another fuel pump relay in as a test.

I checked the sparks three ways. I have a spark tester which plugs inline
between the plug and wire. I also took out the plug and watched it arc
when cranked (wire connected). I also watched it arc from dist to wire.
The spark didn't seem all that powerful, but that's all relative. A weak
spark should still cause combustion.

I tested the fuel pressure at the fuel rail. When ignition was turned on
with banjo bolt unbolted, gas shot up out of the bolt as expected.

I'm at a loss on what's going on since I'm getting spark and fuel. I haven't
checked if I'm getting air (not sure what the best way to do that is). With
all three present (air, spark, and fuel), I should be getting combustion.
perhaps my timing is off because I have a supra that won't start if the timing
is way out of range.
Gary

gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote in message news:<q0t3ov086g4jf2tprrk6ofss7fp27u6olf@4ax.com>. ..
> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:36:03 GMT, "Caliban"
> <caliban03nospam@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >How many miles on the car?
> >
> >I haven't heard of the main fuel relay failing twice. (Though I guess with
> >enough years and miles, it will.) I think there was a defect in the original
> >one in this year's Hondas. Subsequent relays don't have this defect.
> >
> >Check and consider replacing: spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap and
> >rotor. This is around $100 in parts and very little labor.
> >
> >Have you ever replaced the distributor coil on this car? If not, consider
> >doing so. It may not be the problem but your car is probably due for a new
> >one, so it's probably worthwhile. Max. of about $100 in parts and another
> >$100 in labor.
> >
> >Same for the ignitor (a.k.a. ignition module). Also max. of about $100 in
> >parts and another $100 in labor.
> >
> >How old's the battery (years and miles)? I ask because it may be
> >complicating the above problems.
>
> Gary said he was getting spark which would seem to rule out these
> ignition parts and he said it cranks well so the battery must be OK.
>
> Hey Gary, how did you check the spark? Was it strong or merely
> present?
>
> I would be tempted to put another fuel pump relay in as a test.

You've mentioned not getting air? Usually when the catalytic is jammed, the
car looses power and come to a complete stop and no start. There will be
little or no air intake flows or muffler exhausts.

Fuel is best check by smelling the plugs, it tells you richness, fouling,
flooding, etc. If all fuel injectors aren't working, a check engine light is
designed to light up in most cases.

The 90 Accord produces a large arc when using a (normal electrical) ground
wire placed near the coil's secondary (the coil's output) or other areas but
will produce a small arc when using the plugs as a test jig. A good igniter
also plays a part in producing a large arc. Here's why.

Step 1. A simple coil test should consists of supplying the coil's ( + ) and
(-) for 14ms a watch the arc.
Step 2. Now compare this arc to the one produced from the stock igniter, I
mean by cranking the motor. The igniter produced arc should be at least four
times larger, and larger as the gap to ground increases. If step 1 produces
a very, very weak arc and step 2 produces a weak arc, then the coil is in
question.

I've had many Hondas that will start with 2-3 teeth off the T-belt.
Koji


>I checked the sparks three ways. I have a spark tester which plugs inline
>between the plug and wire. I also took out the plug and watched it arc
>when cranked (wire connected). I also watched it arc from dist to wire.
>The spark didn't seem all that powerful, but that's all relative. A weak
>spark should still cause combustion.
>
>I tested the fuel pressure at the fuel rail. When ignition was turned on
>with banjo bolt unbolted, gas shot up out of the bolt as expected.
>
>I'm at a loss on what's going on since I'm getting spark and fuel. I
haven't
>checked if I'm getting air (not sure what the best way to do that is).
With
>all three present (air, spark, and fuel), I should be getting combustion.
>perhaps my timing is off because I have a supra that won't start if the
timing
>is way out of range.
>Gary
>
>gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote in message
news:<q0t3ov086g4jf2tprrk6ofss7fp27u6olf@4ax.com>. ..
>> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:36:03 GMT, "Caliban"
>> <caliban03nospam@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >How many miles on the car?
>> >
>> >I haven't heard of the main fuel relay failing twice. (Though I guess
with
>> >enough years and miles, it will.) I think there was a defect in the
original
>> >one in this year's Hondas. Subsequent relays don't have this defect.
>> >
>> >Check and consider replacing: spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap
and
>> >rotor. This is around $100 in parts and very little labor.
>> >
>> >Have you ever replaced the distributor coil on this car? If not,
consider
>> >doing so. It may not be the problem but your car is probably due for a
new
>> >one, so it's probably worthwhile. Max. of about $100 in parts and
another
>> >$100 in labor.
>> >
>> >Same for the ignitor (a.k.a. ignition module). Also max. of about $100
in
>> >parts and another $100 in labor.
>> >
>> >How old's the battery (years and miles)? I ask because it may be
>> >complicating the above problems.
>>
>> Gary said he was getting spark which would seem to rule out these
>> ignition parts and he said it cranks well so the battery must be OK.
>>
>> Hey Gary, how did you check the spark? Was it strong or merely
>> present?
>>
>> I would be tempted to put another fuel pump relay in as a test.

On 6 Oct 2003 04:48:10 -0700, garyhgaryh@yahoo.com (Gary H) wrote:

>I write:
>|around town, however, the car will start when jumpe started. Car is towed home
>
>OPPS. This should say the car will **NOT** start when jumped started.
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>|The details (long):
>|In the last few weeks, the car has died on multiple occasions around town
>|and on a long road trip. The car would just lose power. Pull off the road and
>|am not able to start it. In all cases it was a drained battery. Charge
>|it up or jump start it and we're good to go. Same thing happens recently
>|around town, however, the car will start when jumpe started. Car is towed home
>|and we charge battery fully. The car cranks vigoriously, but will not start!
>|This is now the second alternator so I no longer think this is the cause (at
>|least not directly). As mentioned above, I've eliminated a few possibilities
>|and figure it might be (in order of likelyhood) - ECU (computer), main relay,
>|or injectors.

Before suspecting the ECU you should check sensors like the TW sensor and
MAP sensor - a simple check of resistance can tell if they're way off.
The main relay is easy to check - listen for the fuel pump running for
2secs when you turn on the ignition. There has to be a reason for the
battery discharging so often and could also be the final cause of your
non-start - check for shorts with the car turned off and then with the
ignition on... and of course check grounding and wire harnesses.

IIRC if you crank for 30secs you should get a check engine code. Was that
a Honda OEM alternator? There have been reports of aftermarket rebuilds
failing fairly quickly.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

The question should be why isn`t my alternator charging. It sounds
like you're loosing power to your ignition or fuel system. According
to your complaints you loss battery power coming to a stop suggests an
electrical problem. Here`s what I see.

I have seen one Honda with acid dripping down into the wire harness`s
sleeve corroding the main wire that connects to the alternator and
other systems. But does not effect the starter and won`t start. The
battery will not charge and the corrosion is visibly undetectable. The
dash lights are slightly dimmed.

If it were your case, I would jump 12V battery to ignition switch 12V
main (white) in left foot fuse box using a thick cable to bring back
that current.
Koji

> You've mentioned not getting air? Usually when the catalytic is jammed, the
> car looses power and come to a complete stop and no start. There will be
> little or no air intake flows or muffler exhausts.
>
> Fuel is best check by smelling the plugs, it tells you richness, fouling,
> flooding, etc. If all fuel injectors aren't working, a check engine light is
> designed to light up in most cases.
>
> The 90 Accord produces a large arc when using a (normal electrical) ground
> wire placed near the coil's secondary (the coil's output) or other areas but
> will produce a small arc when using the plugs as a test jig. A good igniter
> also plays a part in producing a large arc. Here's why.
>
> Step 1. A simple coil test should consists of supplying the coil's ( + ) and
> (-) for 14ms a watch the arc.
> Step 2. Now compare this arc to the one produced from the stock igniter, I
> mean by cranking the motor. The igniter produced arc should be at least four
> times larger, and larger as the gap to ground increases. If step 1 produces
> a very, very weak arc and step 2 produces a weak arc, then the coil is in
> question.
>
> I've had many Hondas that will start with 2-3 teeth off the T-belt.
> Koji
>
>
> >I checked the sparks three ways. I have a spark tester which plugs inline
> >between the plug and wire. I also took out the plug and watched it arc
> >when cranked (wire connected). I also watched it arc from dist to wire.
> >The spark didn't seem all that powerful, but that's all relative. A weak
> >spark should still cause combustion.
> >
> >I tested the fuel pressure at the fuel rail. When ignition was turned on
> >with banjo bolt unbolted, gas shot up out of the bolt as expected.
> >
> >I'm at a loss on what's going on since I'm getting spark and fuel. I
> haven't
> >checked if I'm getting air (not sure what the best way to do that is).
> With
> >all three present (air, spark, and fuel), I should be getting combustion.
> >perhaps my timing is off because I have a supra that won't start if the
> timing
> >is way out of range.
> >Gary
> >
> >gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote in message
> news:<q0t3ov086g4jf2tprrk6ofss7fp27u6olf@4ax.com>. ..
> >> On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:36:03 GMT, "Caliban"
> >> <caliban03nospam@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >How many miles on the car?
> >> >
> >> >I haven't heard of the main fuel relay failing twice. (Though I guess
> with
> >> >enough years and miles, it will.) I think there was a defect in the
> original
> >> >one in this year's Hondas. Subsequent relays don't have this defect.
> >> >
> >> >Check and consider replacing: spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap
> and
> >> >rotor. This is around $100 in parts and very little labor.
> >> >
> >> >Have you ever replaced the distributor coil on this car? If not,
> consider
> >> >doing so. It may not be the problem but your car is probably due for a
> new
> >> >one, so it's probably worthwhile. Max. of about $100 in parts and
> another
> >> >$100 in labor.
> >> >
> >> >Same for the ignitor (a.k.a. ignition module). Also max. of about $100
> in
> >> >parts and another $100 in labor.
> >> >
> >> >How old's the battery (years and miles)? I ask because it may be
> >> >complicating the above problems.
> >>
> >> Gary said he was getting spark which would seem to rule out these
> >> ignition parts and he said it cranks well so the battery must be OK.
> >>
> >> Hey Gary, how did you check the spark? Was it strong or merely
> >> present?
> >>
> >> I would be tempted to put another fuel pump relay in as a test.

fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com (George Macdonald) wrote in message news:<3f832f84.42841608@news.tellurian.com>...
> Before suspecting the ECU you should check sensors like the TW sensor and
> MAP sensor - a simple check of resistance can tell if they're way off.
> The main relay is easy to check - listen for the fuel pump running for
> 2secs when you turn on the ignition. There has to be a reason for the
> battery discharging so often and could also be the final cause of your
> non-start - check for shorts with the car turned off and then with the
> ignition on... and of course check grounding and wire harnesses.
>
> IIRC if you crank for 30secs you should get a check engine code. Was that
> a Honda OEM alternator? There have been reports of aftermarket rebuilds
> failing fairly quickly.
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

George,
I've had two alternators in there. OEM and a rebuilt one.
Alternator aside, the car should start with a good battery.
Would a shorted alternator cause a no-start?

The main relay is 1.5 yrs old. I will check again though.
Gary

apple26pie@yahoo.com (Koji San) wrote in message news:<fa1ef2c1.0310080308.6eb35ada@posting.google. com>...
> The question should be why isn`t my alternator charging. It sounds
> like you're loosing power to your ignition or fuel system. According
> to your complaints you loss battery power coming to a stop suggests an
> electrical problem. Here`s what I see.
>
> I have seen one Honda with acid dripping down into the wire harness`s
> sleeve corroding the main wire that connects to the alternator and
> other systems. But does not effect the starter and won`t start. The
> battery will not charge and the corrosion is visibly undetectable. The
> dash lights are slightly dimmed.
>
> If it were your case, I would jump 12V battery to ignition switch 12V
> main (white) in left foot fuse box using a thick cable to bring back
> that current.
> Koji

Koji,
Dash light are not dim, but that's something I will check.
How do I check the engine light on an accord?
Thanks,
Gary

The yellow check engine light should light up while the key is turned
to the ignition position. It should go out after starting. If you
never see it light in the process of getting the engine running there
is a problem. Possibly the light itself.


On 10 Oct 2003 19:05:25 -0700, garyhgaryh@yahoo.com (Gary H) wrote:

>apple26pie@yahoo.com (Koji San) wrote in message news:<fa1ef2c1.0310080308.6eb35ada@posting.google. com>...
>> The question should be why isn`t my alternator charging. It sounds
>> like you're loosing power to your ignition or fuel system. According
>> to your complaints you loss battery power coming to a stop suggests an
>> electrical problem. Here`s what I see.
>>
>> I have seen one Honda with acid dripping down into the wire harness`s
>> sleeve corroding the main wire that connects to the alternator and
>> other systems. But does not effect the starter and won`t start. The
>> battery will not charge and the corrosion is visibly undetectable. The
>> dash lights are slightly dimmed.
>>
>> If it were your case, I would jump 12V battery to ignition switch 12V
>> main (white) in left foot fuse box using a thick cable to bring back
>> that current.
>> Koji
>
>Koji,
>Dash light are not dim, but that's something I will check.
>How do I check the engine light on an accord?
>Thanks,
>Gary