Honda Car Forum

I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets
say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according to
car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly
mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of a
BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry? If they like
that engine, then open the BMW engine up and make an exact copy of the
parts, etc.

If computer makers copied the IBM PC through reverse engineering (because of
patents, etc) why cant car makers just copy each other flat out? I'm sure
BMW doesn't have some patent on the suspension geometry.

Does Toyota know something we don't? I mean, it's mostly us driving
enthusiast that want a car that drives like a BMW, but does the avg. Joe
want to drive a car that has the "bmw ride"? Maybe not. But if Lexus is
flat out aiming at the 3er, then I don't know why they cant make a car that
drives exactly like one.

what do u guys think?

If you want a BMW why not just buy one?

Jack

"elmo" <m@vfd.com> wrote in message
news:lvK7b.604$vn.12828@sea-read.news.verio.net...
> I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets
> say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according
to
> car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly
> mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of
a
> BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry? If they like
> that engine, then open the BMW engine up and make an exact copy of the
> parts, etc.
>
> If computer makers copied the IBM PC through reverse engineering (because
of
> patents, etc) why cant car makers just copy each other flat out? I'm sure
> BMW doesn't have some patent on the suspension geometry.
>
> Does Toyota know something we don't? I mean, it's mostly us driving
> enthusiast that want a car that drives like a BMW, but does the avg. Joe
> want to drive a car that has the "bmw ride"? Maybe not. But if Lexus is
> flat out aiming at the 3er, then I don't know why they cant make a car
that
> drives exactly like one.
>
> what do u guys think?
>
>

The CAN make a copy of the 3 Series if they wanted to.

What you have to understand it that automakers design and build to a
perceived customer and an expected set of demands that customer might have.
They seem to think that a BMW customer is some sort of anamoly that has a
unique set of demands, or something. They seem to think that what they are
building has broader appeal in the market place. If they build a car like a
BMW, and it appeals to 5% of the buyers, or they build a car like the Camry
that appeals to 40%, which do you think they will build?

There are complexities that go along with the decision to build like BMW
builds, but they seem to think that people will rather spend 22,000 and get
close to what they really want than spend 32,000 to actually get it. Of
course, now that you and I have a BMW in our garage, we appreciate the value
of the extra 10 grand. ;-)



"elmo" <m@vfd.com> wrote in message
news:lvK7b.604$vn.12828@sea-read.news.verio.net...
> I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets
> say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according
to
> car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly
> mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of
a
> BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry? If they like
> that engine, then open the BMW engine up and make an exact copy of the
> parts, etc.
>
> If computer makers copied the IBM PC through reverse engineering (because
of
> patents, etc) why cant car makers just copy each other flat out? I'm sure
> BMW doesn't have some patent on the suspension geometry.
>
> Does Toyota know something we don't? I mean, it's mostly us driving
> enthusiast that want a car that drives like a BMW, but does the avg. Joe
> want to drive a car that has the "bmw ride"? Maybe not. But if Lexus is
> flat out aiming at the 3er, then I don't know why they cant make a car
that
> drives exactly like one.
>
> what do u guys think?
>
>

They could make one, but remember - BMWs are not really any
more reliable than GMs. Good, but not great.

All that performance comes at a price, afterall. A bit
lighter weight here, a bit higher revving engine there...
Unless you want to get a Mercedes AMG model, and pay upwards
of 50K, then you "settle" for a AMG lite(aka BMW for $15K less).

They could make a very good BMW clone but to achieve a truly comparable car
(suspension, electronics etc), their cost would be very close to that of a
BMW.

"elmo" <m@vfd.com> wrote in message
news:lvK7b.604$vn.12828@sea-read.news.verio.net...
> I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets
> say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according
to
> car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly
> mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of
a
> BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry? If they like
> that engine, then open the BMW engine up and make an exact copy of the
> parts, etc.
>
> If computer makers copied the IBM PC through reverse engineering (because
of
> patents, etc) why cant car makers just copy each other flat out? I'm sure
> BMW doesn't have some patent on the suspension geometry.
>
> Does Toyota know something we don't? I mean, it's mostly us driving
> enthusiast that want a car that drives like a BMW, but does the avg. Joe
> want to drive a car that has the "bmw ride"? Maybe not. But if Lexus is
> flat out aiming at the 3er, then I don't know why they cant make a car
that
> drives exactly like one.
>
> what do u guys think?
>
>

From: elmo (m@vfd.com)
Subject: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a
BMW?
This is the only article in this thread
View: Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.autos.bmw, alt.autos.lexus, alt.autos.toyota,
rec.autos.makers.honda
Date: 2003-09-10 11:58:35 PST

It is difference in engineering and production cost, my friend. The
way BMW manufactures their cars is substantially different from great
Japanese companies namely, Toyota and Honda. If Toyota starts putting
technology in a Corolla that is more or less the same that is found
BMW, it would end up costing the customer after the profit margin
almost the same as a BMW 3 series. Now, that does not necessarily mean
that the reliability of German cars is better than Japanese. Far from
that. Nevertheless, the fit, finish and quality of all the components
used in the car ( BMW uses laser etching to even out the body for that
perfect finishing) is what separates the German cars from the rest of
the flock. Although, the compact car division is getting so
competitive the new models (2004 Corolla, for instance. I have driven
four Corolla models my dad's 1982/83 in my mid teens about 8 years
ago, 1995, 1999 and now my own new 2004 Corolla Sport) is a massive
improvement over the predecessor models. No one could have predicted
the quality and cutting edge technology I expect the same with the
next Honda Civic as well and who knows one day they will have cars in
compact category that can stand next to a BMW or Audi 1.8T.

Best wishes,

Faisal A Sheikh



"elmo" <m@vfd.com> wrote in message news:<lvK7b.604$vn.12828@sea-read.news.verio.net>...
> I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets
> say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according to
> car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly
> mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of a
> BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry? If they like
> that engine, then open the BMW engine up and make an exact copy of the
> parts, etc.
>
> If computer makers copied the IBM PC through reverse engineering (because of
> patents, etc) why cant car makers just copy each other flat out? I'm sure
> BMW doesn't have some patent on the suspension geometry.
>
> Does Toyota know something we don't? I mean, it's mostly us driving
> enthusiast that want a car that drives like a BMW, but does the avg. Joe
> want to drive a car that has the "bmw ride"? Maybe not. But if Lexus is
> flat out aiming at the 3er, then I don't know why they cant make a car that
> drives exactly like one.
>
> what do u guys think?

Falling asleep through elmo's post...

> what do u guys think?

Don't think they need to. They are trying to with that Lexus, but they
make thier money with bread and butter cars like Corollas and the new
trucks.

--
"If you can't change a tire, you're not allowed to have a beard. It's the
most basic part of a car: If you don't know that much about a car, you
really shouldn't be driving, should you?" - Jimmy Kimmel
http://www.cafeshops.com/creexul.2534632
Owner of Henry Cotter, apparently not the first,
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...=UTF-8&oe=UTF-
8&q=author:manofhour%40webtv.net+

"FaisalCorollaS" <faisalAjmalSheikh@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c6f426c.0309101234.e1efb4d@posting.google.com ...
> From: elmo (m@vfd.com)
> Subject: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a
> BMW?
> This is the only article in this thread
> View: Original Format
> Newsgroups: alt.autos.bmw, alt.autos.lexus, alt.autos.toyota,
> rec.autos.makers.honda
> Date: 2003-09-10 11:58:35 PST
>
> It is difference in engineering and production cost, my friend. The
> way BMW manufactures their cars is substantially different from great
> Japanese companies namely, Toyota and Honda. If Toyota starts putting
> technology in a Corolla that is more or less the same that is found
> BMW, it would end up costing the customer after the profit margin
> almost the same as a BMW 3 series. Now, that does not necessarily mean
> that the reliability of German cars is better than Japanese. Far from
> that. Nevertheless, the fit, finish and quality of all the components
> used in the car ( BMW uses laser etching to even out the body for that
> perfect finishing) is what separates the German cars from the rest of
> the flock. Although, the compact car division is getting so
> competitive the new models (2004 Corolla, for instance. I have driven
> four Corolla models my dad's 1982/83 in my mid teens about 8 years
> ago, 1995, 1999 and now my own new 2004 Corolla Sport) is a massive
> improvement over the predecessor models. No one could have predicted
> the quality and cutting edge technology I expect the same with the
> next Honda Civic as well and who knows one day they will have cars in
> compact category that can stand next to a BMW or Audi 1.8T.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Faisal A Sheikh
>

But you are comparing a corolla and a 3er. What i'm saying is, when Lexus
decided to build a "3 series killer" which is the IS and came short (based
on opinion ofcourse) of making a car which is as fun to drive as the
3er...i'm sure Lexus engineers realized that the IS was no 3er killer when
they had the prototype, it was a good alternative to it because of the
cheaper price and higher reliability, but I'm sure that they were not
focusing on building a car that is 2nd in the fun to drive category (the
reason people buy BMWs) and first in quality and value. Why didn't they
just do a mechanical copy of the 3er to start of with and then beat BMW by
offering the car w/ a lower price and higher quality (which they can easily
do w/ more efficient production)? And I don't buy the argument that BMW
uses higher quality components Vs. Toyota, infact its quite the opposite.
How many electrical problems do people exp. w/ Mercedes and BMW's Vs.
Toyota, Im sure the problem rate w/ BMW components (mostly made by Bosch) is
much higher then a toyota (mostly made by denso). Anyone making an argument
that BMW employees a higher quality standard (including in production)
compared to Lexus has to be smoking some real good shit.

"Jack G" <jack.grouell@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:tSK7b.29984$ae6.22542@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> If you want a BMW why not just buy one?
>
> Jack
>

Because BMW reliability is not that great.

"elmo" <m@vfd.com> wrote in message
news:lvK7b.604$vn.12828@sea-read.news.verio.net...
> I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets
> say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according
to
> car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly
> mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of
a
> BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry?

Well, that's kind of what Nissan did with the Datsun 510...