Honda Car Forum

Driving '90 Honda accord and it just quit.
- Found and fixed a short to the fuel pump
- replaced fuel non-working fuel pump
- replace weak ignition coil now have good spark
- replace fuel filter.

Car turns over but does not want to fire – am at a lost as to what to do now?

Thanks for any help.

"honda_driver" <swevley@yahoo.com> wrote
> Driving '90 Honda accord and it just quit.
> - Found and fixed a short to the fuel pump
> - replaced fuel non-working fuel pump
> - replace weak ignition coil now have good spark
> - replace fuel filter.
>
> Car turns over but does not want to fire - am at a lost as to what to do
now?

Consider replacing the ignitor (a.k.a. ignition module), located on the
distributor. The ignitor can get fouled up easily by other parts that are
not working, like the coil.

It's $95 at http://www.honda-auto-parts-wholesale.com/ , and free shipping
on anything over $50.

On 2 Sep 2003 20:07:59 -0700, swevley@yahoo.com (honda_driver) wrote:

>Driving '90 Honda accord and it just quit.
>- Found and fixed a short to the fuel pump
>- replaced fuel non-working fuel pump
>- replace weak ignition coil now have good spark
>- replace fuel filter.
>
>Car turns over but does not want to fire – am at a lost as to what to do now?

So is that replaced fuel pump running?

It should run for a couple of seconds when the key is turned on. If
the system was drained the ignition may have to be turned on and off
without turning the engine six or seven times before the fuel rail is
refilled and brought up to pressure. THEN try a start.

"Caliban" <caliban27@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<CXn5b.7037$tw6.1465@newsread4.news.pas.earth link.net>...
> "honda_driver" <swevley@yahoo.com> wrote
> > Driving '90 Honda accord and it just quit.
> > - Found and fixed a short to the fuel pump
> > - replaced fuel non-working fuel pump
> > - replace weak ignition coil now have good spark
> > - replace fuel filter.
> >
> > Car turns over but does not want to fire - am at a lost as to what to do
> now?
>
> Consider replacing the ignitor (a.k.a. ignition module), located on the
> distributor. The ignitor can get fouled up easily by other parts that are
> not working, like the coil.
>
> It's $95 at http://www.honda-auto-parts-wholesale.com/ , and free shipping
> on anything over $50.

Would I still get spark in the ignitor is not working properly? Would
spraying start fluid into the intake to see if it fire would be enough
of a test to say that the ignitor is working?

Thanks for the ideas.

> My research indicates that, yes, you may very well still get a spark with
> the ignitor not working properly. A description of the function of a Honda
> ignitor appears at
> http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/elec...er/igniter.htm. It seems to
> me that the description indicates the plugs may very well still have spark
> when the ignition coil is failing.

Most ignitors just fail and no spark. If it's intermittent then it
might produce random but healthy spark. It depends how it fails.

> I see from the circuit diagram at this site that the ignitor is electrically
> in parallel with the ignition coil,

It appears to be in series. Current flows from the ignitor to the
coil. Coils never gets ground on its own.

> so it makes sense to me at the moment
> that electricity may get to the spark plugs even when the ignitor is not
> working properly. But it may be insufficient voltage, etc.

Yes, 12v alone won't produce a spark as path is broken at the rotor.
And yes with insufficient current to the coil, spark won't produce.
-End.



> I am not thee expert here, so I couldn't answer this for sure off the top of
> my head. But I was curious...
>
> Note the commentary about the main fuel relay here, too.
>
> Have you ever replaced either the ignitor or the main fuel relay on your
> Accord?
>
> They typically both die well within ten years.
>
> My comments on your Accord are "biased" by my experience with my car's
> ignitor and main fuel relay, as well as reading the many posts here
> reporting failures of the same.
>
> >Would
> > spraying start fluid into the intake to see if it fire would be enough
> > of a test to say that the ignitor is working?
>
> I would try the checks listed at
> http://www.crx.org/southcal/tech/ign...er-testing.htm . A careful
> reading of this site suggests to me again that, indeed, a failing ignitor
> may still give a spark at the plugs.
>
> To see more discussions of benchtesting the ignitor, go to
> www.groups.google.com and search for: voltage (igniter OR ignitor) (Honda
> OR Civic OR Accord)
>
> Note that both the sites I give above give directions for replacing the
> ignitor.
>
> > Thanks for the ideas.
>
> Welcome. They are just ideas. Hopefully someone with a bit more experience
> will confirm or deny the details I give above.
>
> Hope you get your car back soon. Updates are welcome. :-)
>
> From yet another site, a test question (to which I do not have the answer
> for sure):
>
> The purpose of the igniter is to:
> 1. Control on time of the primary circuit
> 2. Provide dwell angle according to RPM
> 3. Provide current limiting
> 4. All of the above
>
> I think the answer is 3. If it's not 3 by itself, then I think it's 3 with
> one or both of the others.

> > > > Driving '90 Honda accord and it just quit.
> > > > - Found and fixed a short to the fuel pump
> > > > - replaced fuel non-working fuel pump
> > > > - replace weak ignition coil now have good spark
> > > > - replace fuel filter.
> > > >
> > > > Car turns over but does not want to fire - am at a lost as to what to
> do
> > > now?
> > >
> > > Consider replacing the ignitor (a.k.a. ignition module), located on the
> > > distributor. The ignitor can get fouled up easily by other parts that
> are
> > > not working, like the coil.
> > >
> > > It's $95 at http://www.honda-auto-parts-wholesale.com/ , and free
> shipping
> > > on anything over $50.
> >
> > Would I still get spark in the ignitor is not working properly?
>

"Ricky Spartacus" <RickySpartan@mailandnews.com> wrote
Caliban wrote
> > I see from the circuit diagram at this site that the ignitor is
electrically
> > in parallel with the ignition coil,
>
> It appears to be in series. Current flows from the ignitor to the
> coil. Coils never gets ground on its own.

You're right. I misread the schematic at the original site I gave earlier. I
should have traced the current flow to the ground (on the far right)...

I think http://www.rustpuppy.org/ignition/Ignition1a.htm has a better
schematic (at the bottom) for the layperson.

I gather the schematic at the original site is indicating that the NPN
transistor switch (see the second site; hope I have this right) receives an
electrical signal deriving from the same power source feeding the positive
terminal of the primary coil. So a part (the signal converter? a.ka. the
triggerer or triggering device?) of what's in the ignition module is in
parallel with the primary coil during some (all?) of the operation. Please
anyone feel free to explain if I have this wrong.

The "technician's school" test at
http://gworobec.users.50megs.com/1010b.html, with answers at the bottom,
helped shed more light on the operation of the ignitor (a.k.a. ignition
module or similar) for me.

The original site is a different schematic from the new site. The
first circuit (Honda) the second is (GM*s HEI.) The original site is
series-parallel circuit after looking twice. People always debate over
electrical theory. That*s why they call it theory.

The signal pulse that came from the ignition module (that gets power
source same as the coil) is either Hi or Low at the base of NPN. Hi or
Lo means positive or negative. When it becomes Hi it*s in
series-parallel with the NPN. When it*s Low it becomes parallel to NPN
and coil. All this is debatable.
gworobec.com does not open.
Ricky Spartacus


> Caliban wrote
> > > I see from the circuit diagram at this site that the ignitor is
> electrically
> > > in parallel with the ignition coil,
> >
> > It appears to be in series. Current flows from the ignitor to the
> > coil. Coils never gets ground on its own.
>
> You're right. I misread the schematic at the original site I gave earlier. I
> should have traced the current flow to the ground (on the far right)...
>
> I think http://www.rustpuppy.org/ignition/Ignition1a.htm has a better
> schematic (at the bottom) for the layperson.
>
> I gather the schematic at the original site is indicating that the NPN
> transistor switch (see the second site; hope I have this right) receives an
> electrical signal deriving from the same power source feeding the positive
> terminal of the primary coil. So a part (the signal converter? a.ka. the
> triggerer or triggering device?) of what's in the ignition module is in
> parallel with the primary coil during some (all?) of the operation. Please
> anyone feel free to explain if I have this wrong.
>
> The "technician's school" test at
> http://gworobec.users.50megs.com/1010b.html, with answers at the bottom,
> helped shed more light on the operation of the ignitor (a.k.a. ignition
> module or similar) for me.

"Koji San" <apple26pie@yahoo.com> wrote
> The original site is a different schematic from the new site. The
> first circuit (Honda) the second is (GM*s HEI.)

Are you claiming the Honda Ignitor has no NPN transistor and no signal
converter?

> The original site is
> series-parallel circuit after looking twice. People always debate over
> electrical theory.

No, not always.

> That*s why they call it theory.
>
> The signal pulse that came from the ignition module (that gets power
> source same as the coil)

(Meaning the signal pulse gets power from the same source as the coil.)

> is either Hi or Low at the base of NPN. Hi or
> Lo means positive or negative. When it becomes Hi it*s in
> series-parallel with the NPN.

I think it's more accurate to say that when the base is Hi the transistor is
"on," and current will flow from the primary coil through the transistor
(emitter and collector, or NN parts of the transistor) to ground. In this
condition the signal converter is in a branch that is in parallel to the
branch that contains the primary coil. Also in this condition, the primary
coil is in series with the transistor's emitter and collector.

> When it*s Low it becomes parallel to NPN
> and coil.

When the base is Lo, the transistor is "off," and the transistor is
effectively an open between the primary coil and ground. In this condition,
no current flows through the primary coil. Also in this condition, the
signal converter is not in a closed circuit with the primary coil, so it's
meaningless to speak of it being electrically in either parallel or series.

>All this is debatable.

Well, we might debate it, as is common on Usenet, but I think most experts
would come to a consensus on what is happening.

> gworobec.com does not open.

I just tried again the links I gave in my earlier post. They all open.

> > The original site is a different schematic from the new site. The
> > first circuit (Honda) the second is (GM*s HEI.)
>
> Are you claiming the Honda Ignitor has no NPN transistor and no signal
> converter?

Nope. The later generations of Hondas uses NPN but older model uses
transistors similar to an isolated (photo) transitor activated by an
embedded LED. So this transistor is activated by electromagnetic
induction inside distributor (with no signal converter) which then
activates the LED. This isolated transitor is based on a theory under
careful observation but never seen schematic.

> > The original site is
> > series-parallel circuit after looking twice. People always debate over
> > electrical theory.
>
> No, not always.
>
> > That*s why they call it theory.
> >
> > The signal pulse that came from the ignition module (that gets power
> > source same as the coil)
>
> (Meaning the signal pulse gets power from the same source as the coil.)
>
> > is either Hi or Low at the base of NPN. Hi or
> > Lo means positive or negative. When it becomes Hi it*s in
> > series-parallel with the NPN.
>
> I think it's more accurate to say that when the base is Hi the transistor is
> "on," and current will flow from the primary coil through the transistor
> (emitter and collector, or NN parts of the transistor) to ground. In this
> condition the signal converter is in a branch that is in parallel to the
> branch that contains the primary coil. Also in this condition, the primary
> coil is in series with the transistor's emitter and collector.

I see. During the "on" state, does curent pass from ground to NPN and
to the signal converter? If this is true then it's in series-parallel.

> > When it*s Low it becomes parallel to NPN
> > and coil.
>
> When the base is Lo, the transistor is "off," and the transistor is
> effectively an open between the primary coil and ground. In this condition,
> no current flows through the primary coil. Also in this condition, the
> signal converter is not in a closed circuit with the primary coil, so it's
> meaningless to speak of it being electrically in either parallel or series.

You're right. When it*s Low it becomes neither. Because electronics
defines true series or parallel must have complete current path(s.) In
this case it's open, I'd overlooked.

> > gworobec.com does not open.
>
> I just tried again the links I gave in my earlier post. They all open.

Sorry, does not open in Mountain View, CA.

"Koji San" <apple26pie@yahoo.com> wrote
> > > The original site is a different schematic from the new site. The
> > > first circuit (Honda) the second is (GM*s HEI.)
> >
> > Are you claiming the Honda Ignitor has no NPN transistor and no signal
> > converter?
>
> Nope. The later generations of Hondas uses NPN but older model uses
> transistors similar to an isolated (photo) transitor activated by an
> embedded LED. So this transistor is activated by electromagnetic
> induction inside distributor (with no signal converter) which then
> activates the LED. This isolated transitor is based on a theory under
> careful observation but never seen schematic.

I need a citation to believe this. Your lack of command of English garbles
the message, too...

Sorry I don't speak your language so we could expedite this exchange.

I really would like to know for sure what "triggers" the ignitor's
transistor in circa 1990 Honda Accords and Civics. Seems to me whatever is
doing the triggering is *inside* the ignitor (= ignition module) and
powered by the same source that powers the distributor primary coil. Both
the Honda drawing and a lot of reading about electronic ignition systems
suggests this.

> > > The original site is
> > > series-parallel circuit after looking twice. People always debate over
> > > electrical theory.
> >
> > No, not always.
> >
> > > That*s why they call it theory.
> > >
> > > The signal pulse that came from the ignition module (that gets power
> > > source same as the coil)
> >
> > (Meaning the signal pulse gets power from the same source as the coil.)
> >
> > > is either Hi or Low at the base of NPN. Hi or
> > > Lo means positive or negative. When it becomes Hi it*s in
> > > series-parallel with the NPN.
> >
> > I think it's more accurate to say that when the base is Hi the
transistor is
> > "on," and current will flow from the primary coil through the transistor
> > (emitter and collector, or NN parts of the transistor) to ground. In
this
> > condition the signal converter is in a branch that is in parallel to the
> > branch that contains the primary coil. Also in this condition, the
primary
> > coil is in series with the transistor's emitter and collector.
>
> I see. During the "on" state, does curent pass from ground to NPN and
> to the signal converter?

No. It passes from the signal converter to ground (or to be exact, signal
converter to base to emitter to ground).

For NPN: Ib = Ic - Ie
where I stands for current, and the subscripts are c = collector, b = base,
and e = emitter. The ignitor's transistor's collector is connected to the
primary coil's "low" side. Note the little arrow on the ignitor's transistor
in the GM drawing. The arrow (among other things) indicates it's an NPN
transistor.

For PNP: Ib = Ie - Ic, and the little arrow is reversed. Perhaps you are
thinking of PNP.

In both NPN and PNP, Ib is very small. It's so small that when the
transistor is "on," it's typically assumed Ic = Ie.

>If this is true then it's in series-parallel.

I think your descriptor "series-parallel" is inaccurate and not used by
electrical/electronics technicians or engineers. I certainly don't find it
helpful to describe what is going on. Hopefully we agree on the following
definitions of "series" and "parallel."

Electrical component P and S are in series if they are directly connected
and have the same amount of current flowing through them.

Electrical components P and S are in parallel (or their branches are in
paralle) if they (or their branches) are directly connected and have the
same voltage drop across them.

Back to the ignition system. When the NPN transistor is "on", the primary
coil P and signal converter S are probably technically neither in parallel
nor in series. From the Honda drawing I first cited, it *appears* they are
each in a branch parallel to the other's branch, as I posted before. But
it's not clear what else is in the branches, so concluding P and S are
exactly in parallel with each other (having the same voltage drops across
each) would be wrong, from what I can tell. When the transistor is "off," P
and S are in series, but any current passing through P is negligible. It's
effectively an open.

This brings us back to the original point: If an ignitor has "failed" or is
intermittently failing, will there be spark at the plugs?

At this point, my feeling is we can talk about the transistor failing or the
signal converter (or whatever is triggering the transistor) failing. The
transistor can fail either in the "on" position or in the "off" position.
The triggerer can fail to provide the correct current to the transistor's
base. Or some variations on these. If the transistor fails in the "on"
position, it seems to me one will see spark at the plugs during diagnostics,
but the car should not start or, if it does, it will run erratically and not
for long. If the transistor fails "off", then there will not be a spark at
the plugs, and hence there will be no start at all. If the triggerer is not
working right, then there may be spark at the plugs, but it might not be the
correct voltage at the plugs, or the voltage is erratic.

Comments welcome.

> > > When it*s Low it becomes parallel to NPN
> > > and coil.
> >
> > When the base is Lo, the transistor is "off," and the transistor is
> > effectively an open between the primary coil and ground. In this
condition,
> > no current flows through the primary coil. Also in this condition, the
> > signal converter is not in a closed circuit with the primary coil, so
it's
> > meaningless to speak of it being electrically in either parallel or
series.
>
> You're right. When it*s Low it becomes neither. Because electronics
> defines true series or parallel must have complete current path(s.) In
> this case it's open, I'd overlooked.
>
> > > gworobec.com does not open.
> >
> > I just tried again the links I gave in my earlier post. They all open.
>
> Sorry, does not open in Mountain View, CA.

Maybe your computer or internet service provider is messed up?

Here's the link again: http://gworobec.users.50megs.com/1010b.html . Try
copying and pasting it.

Or here are the test questions. The answers are at the very bottom.

1. What is the maximum voltage that some modern ignition systems can
produce?

a. 20,000
b. 50,000
c. 60,000
d. 100,000

2. What is the primary job of the ignition coil?

a. convert low voltage to high
voltage
b. convert high voltage to low
voltage
c. reduce primary voltage
d. reduce secondary voltage

3. What causes the electronic module to stop the flow of primary current?

a. a signal from the contact points
b. a signal from the triggering
device
c. coil self-induction
d. coil over-voltage

4. Dwell is controlled by the ________

a. vacuum advance
b. centrifugal advance
c. distributor cap
d. none of the above

5. Where is the Power Transistor located?

a. pickup coil assembly
b. ignition module
c. coil
d. ignition switch

6. Triggering devices are operated by rotation of the ______

a. distributor shaft
b. crankshaft
c. camshaft
d. all of the above, depending on
the design

7. If the spark plug heat range is too cold, what could happen?

a. fouling
b. preignition
c. detonation
d. weak spark

8. A spark plug gap of .025" (.635 mm) would be found on

a. the newest vehicles
b. vehicles with electronic
ignition
c. older vehicles
d. both A and B

9. The most common spark plug gaps used today are about ______

a. .025"(.635 mm) to .045"(1.1 mm)
b. .045"(1.1 mm) to .065"(1.65 mm)
c. .065"(1.65 mm) to .095"(2.413
mm)
d. .095"(2.413 mm) to .120"(3.04
mm)

10. Using a resistor spark plug reduces what undesirable condition?

a. static
b. radio interference
c. electrode overheating
d. both A and B

11. A six cylinder engine with direct ignition has how many ignition coils?

a. 1
b. 2
c. 3
d. 6

12. In a centrifugal advance mechanism the spark advance responds to

a. engine load
b. calibrated weight springs
c. engine speed
d. distributor breaker points

13. In Solid State ignition systems

a. no coil is used
b. no breaker points are used
c. breaker points carry low current
d. secondary voltage is lower that
point type

14. Technician A says that the contact points and condenser are part of the
secondary
circuit. Technician B says that all components in the distributor
are part of the
secondary circuit. Who is right?

a. A only
b. B only
c. both A and B
d. neither A nor B

15. Dwell is defined as

a. point gap in thousandths of an
inch
b. the voltage in the primary
circuit
c. the length of time in degrees of
rotation the points are open
d. the length of time in degrees of
rotation the points are closed

16. What component is used to open and close the primary circuit on an
electronic
ignition system?

a. transistor
b. condenser
c. diode
d. points

17. Technician A says that when the coil fires on a DIS system, it actually
fires two spark
plugs at the same time. Technician B says that when the DIS system
fires, both cylinders
are on the compression stroke at the same time. Who is right?

a. A only
b. B only
c. both A and B
d. neither A nor B

18. Technician A says that a DIS system uses one coil for each spark plug.
Technician B
says that some systems use one coil for every two spark plugs. Who
is correct?

a. A only
b. B only
c. both A and B
d. neither A nor B

19. Technician A says that the coil fires when the points open. Technician
B says that the
coil fires when the points close. Who is right?

a. A only
b. B only
c. both A and B
d. neither A nor B

20. An ohmmeter is connected from the coil + terminal to the coil secondary
tower. Technician
A says that this will test the coil primary resistance. Technician
B says that this will check
secondary resistance. Who is right?

a. A only
b. B only
c. both A and B
d. neither A nor B

21. Technician A says that ignition systems usually put out in excess of
40KV. Technician B
says that the system will only put out enough voltage to jump the
gap at the spark
plug. Who is right?

a. A only
b. B only
c. both A and B
d. neither A nor B

22. A distributor pickup coil (pulse generator) produces electricity and
sends it to the

a. starter relay
b. coil
c. distributor
d. ignition module

23. Which components are connected in parallel?

a. ignition switch and primary
circuit
b. coil primary and resistor
c. points and condenser
d. module and coil primary

24. Spark plug wires have resistance to prevent

a. plug fouling
b. miss under load
c. radio interference
d. none of the above

25. Vacuum and centrifugal advance mechanisms can be found on engines
equipped
with ____________ ignition systems.

a. direct
b. electronic
c. compression
d. distributorless

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

KEY
1 C
2 A
3 B
4 D
5 B
6 D
7 A
8 C
9 B
10 D
11 C
12 C
13 B
14 D
15 D
16 A
17 A
18 B
19 A
20 B
21 B
22 D
23 C
24 C
25 B