Honda Car Forum

Just purchased a 99 Civic EX (51K miles, with ABS) a week ago and had the
first chance to really ring it out this long holiday weekend, which leads to
a question about some brake pulsing I experienced.

On the Interstate we hit some weekend traffic which caused us to literally
slow down to "0" mph. When braking on the way up, I experienced some
significant "pulsing" effects. These were NOT emergency stop situations, but
significant slowdowns over considerable distance. It happened multiple times
during the 150 mile trip up. I did NOT notice this happening on the way
back, although we took mostly back roads and only drove ~60 miles on the
Interstate system on the return trip. [When we picked up the car we also
drove Interstate and major highway for 30 miles and didn't have the
pulsating issue.]

The 99 Civic EX has ABS with rear drum/front disc brakes. Tires appear in
"good condition" and are fairly noisy (Firestones). I have no idea what the
condition of the brakes/rotors/drums are, but the car was "very clean" and
I'm told that the original owner did mostly highway driving. For
comparison, I have a 2001 Civic EX with ABS (discs front/rear, bought new)
and have never noticed the pulsating brakes issue I describe above.

I have to bring the car back to the dealer for mudflaps to be installed this
week anyway, but I'd like some clue as to what may be causing the pulsating
brake problem? [Of course the used car warranty is the useless 50-50 deal
for 30 days/1K miles.]

Thanks in advance for any hints that anyone might have on the cause of this
problem.

--

Regards,
Len Segal
--------------
My reply address is intentionally wrong to reduce SPAM Email.
NOTE: Please post response in newsgroup.

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 14:22:22 GMT, "Len Segal" <msn_news@ne_ws.oom> wrote:

>Just purchased a 99 Civic EX (51K miles, with ABS) a week ago and had the
>first chance to really ring it out this long holiday weekend, which leads to
>a question about some brake pulsing I experienced.
>
>On the Interstate we hit some weekend traffic which caused us to literally
>slow down to "0" mph. When braking on the way up, I experienced some
>significant "pulsing" effects. These were NOT emergency stop situations, but
>significant slowdowns over considerable distance. It happened multiple times
>during the 150 mile trip up. I did NOT notice this happening on the way
>back, although we took mostly back roads and only drove ~60 miles on the
>Interstate system on the return trip. [When we picked up the car we also
>drove Interstate and major highway for 30 miles and didn't have the
>pulsating issue.]
>
>The 99 Civic EX has ABS with rear drum/front disc brakes. Tires appear in
>"good condition" and are fairly noisy (Firestones). I have no idea what the
>condition of the brakes/rotors/drums are, but the car was "very clean" and
>I'm told that the original owner did mostly highway driving. For
>comparison, I have a 2001 Civic EX with ABS (discs front/rear, bought new)
>and have never noticed the pulsating brakes issue I describe above.
>
>I have to bring the car back to the dealer for mudflaps to be installed this
>week anyway, but I'd like some clue as to what may be causing the pulsating
>brake problem? [Of course the used car warranty is the useless 50-50 deal
>for 30 days/1K miles.]
>
>Thanks in advance for any hints that anyone might have on the cause of this
>problem.

It's probably temp dependent rotor warp - endemic to many new cars now.
There's not enough mass in the rotors and they try to get away with venting
to cool them quicker which only aggravates the problem with uneven cooling.
IME one hard, high speed emergency stop is enough to start the problem.
You should check the wheel nuts torques to be sure they are even and
80lb/ft but it likely won't help.

The dealer will likely suggest turning but from my own observations with my
'99 Integra, the rotors are not warped when cold and the turning will just
reduce the mass further and could make things worse. The only solution is
new rotors and to hope they last a bit longer.

BTW this site <http://www.importrp.com/home.html> is showing good prices on
Brembo OE type rotors. I haven't used them yet but if anyone has any
experience or remarks on them I'd like to hear.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

George,

Many thanks for the reply. This sounds like quite a challenge to T/S!
Especially since a 60 mile highway trip home didn't cause the problem. I
guess that I need to get out more in rush hours to test this out! <g>

Who makes the rotors for Honda? Never heard of Brembo. How big a job (DIY)
is it to replace the rotors (e.g. do they come with wheel bearings
installed)? Pressing in wheel bearings is not DIY unless you have the proper
equipment (which I don't). [I've pulled rotors many years in the past
(either VW, German Mercury Capri or American Mercury). My last Toy Camry and
Acura Integra didn't need this kind of work, so I've been lazy over the past
16 years <g>.

--

Regards,
Len Segal
--------------
My reply address is intentionally wrong to reduce SPAM Email.
Please post responses in newsgroup.

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
news:3f552097.49726888@news.tellurian.com...
> On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 14:22:22 GMT, "Len Segal" <msn_news@ne_ws.oom> wrote:
>
> >Just purchased a 99 Civic EX (51K miles, with ABS) a week ago and had the
> >first chance to really ring it out this long holiday weekend, which leads
to
> >a question about some brake pulsing I experienced.
> >
> >On the Interstate we hit some weekend traffic which caused us to
literally
> >slow down to "0" mph. When braking on the way up, I experienced some
> >significant "pulsing" effects. These were NOT emergency stop situations,
but
> >significant slowdowns over considerable distance. It happened multiple
times
> >during the 150 mile trip up. I did NOT notice this happening on the way
> >back, although we took mostly back roads and only drove ~60 miles on the
> >Interstate system on the return trip. [When we picked up the car we also
> >drove Interstate and major highway for 30 miles and didn't have the
> >pulsating issue.]
> >
> >The 99 Civic EX has ABS with rear drum/front disc brakes. Tires appear in
> >"good condition" and are fairly noisy (Firestones). I have no idea what
the
> >condition of the brakes/rotors/drums are, but the car was "very clean"
and
> >I'm told that the original owner did mostly highway driving. For
> >comparison, I have a 2001 Civic EX with ABS (discs front/rear, bought
new)
> >and have never noticed the pulsating brakes issue I describe above.
> >
> >I have to bring the car back to the dealer for mudflaps to be installed
this
> >week anyway, but I'd like some clue as to what may be causing the
pulsating
> >brake problem? [Of course the used car warranty is the useless 50-50 deal
> >for 30 days/1K miles.]
> >
> >Thanks in advance for any hints that anyone might have on the cause of
this
> >problem.
>
> It's probably temp dependent rotor warp - endemic to many new cars now.
> There's not enough mass in the rotors and they try to get away with
venting
> to cool them quicker which only aggravates the problem with uneven
cooling.
> IME one hard, high speed emergency stop is enough to start the problem.
> You should check the wheel nuts torques to be sure they are even and
> 80lb/ft but it likely won't help.
>
> The dealer will likely suggest turning but from my own observations with
my
> '99 Integra, the rotors are not warped when cold and the turning will just
> reduce the mass further and could make things worse. The only solution is
> new rotors and to hope they last a bit longer.
>
> BTW this site <http://www.importrp.com/home.html> is showing good prices
on
> Brembo OE type rotors. I haven't used them yet but if anyone has any
> experience or remarks on them I'd like to hear.
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who,
me??

On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:29:47 GMT, "Len Segal" <msn_news@ne_ws.oom> wrote:

>George,
>
>Many thanks for the reply. This sounds like quite a challenge to T/S!
>Especially since a 60 mile highway trip home didn't cause the problem. I
>guess that I need to get out more in rush hours to test this out! <g>

There's been lots of discussion here and I've been I've been trying to
diagnose this elusive warping for a while now. From what I see, based on a
suggestion of someone else, it appears that the pulsing is reproducible at
certain speeds - e.g. it is almost certain to happen at ~80mph if you brake
fairly hard. Above that speed it's OK but as the car slows down past 80mph
it starts... and once started it only goes away when the rotor cools down
sufficiently.

>Who makes the rotors for Honda?

AFAIK most of the Honda brake parts are made by Nissin. There's been a
suggestion that the parts sold in the U.S. under the AEM brand are also
Nissin.

> Never heard of Brembo.

One of the most famous brake mfr names worldwide there is.:-) They are
famous for their racing calipers and drilled rotors. It was my thought to
try their OE type rotors since the Honda parts are all afflicted with the
warp problem. The Brembo OE may be as bad but, from my POV, that's worth
finding out.:-)

> How big a job (DIY)
>is it to replace the rotors (e.g. do they come with wheel bearings
>installed)? Pressing in wheel bearings is not DIY unless you have the proper
>equipment (which I don't). [I've pulled rotors many years in the past
>(either VW, German Mercury Capri or American Mercury). My last Toy Camry and
>Acura Integra didn't need this kind of work, so I've been lazy over the past
>16 years <g>.

No - in most cases, apart from Accords between 1990 to 1997 (I think those
are the years), the rotors are only held on the outer side of the hub with
a set screw and you do not need to disturb the bearing. The worst part is
getting the set screw out, which often ends up with drilling - there are a
couple of threaded holes in the rotors which you turn a M8 bolt into to
push the rotor off the hub.

>--------------
>My reply address is intentionally wrong to reduce SPAM Email.
>Please post responses in newsgroup.
>
>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
>news:3f552097.49726888@news.tellurian.com...
>> On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 14:22:22 GMT, "Len Segal" <msn_news@ne_ws.oom> wrote:
>>
>> >Just purchased a 99 Civic EX (51K miles, with ABS) a week ago and had the
>> >first chance to really ring it out this long holiday weekend, which leads
>to
>> >a question about some brake pulsing I experienced.
>> >
>> >On the Interstate we hit some weekend traffic which caused us to
>literally
>> >slow down to "0" mph. When braking on the way up, I experienced some
>> >significant "pulsing" effects. These were NOT emergency stop situations,
>but
>> >significant slowdowns over considerable distance. It happened multiple
>times
>> >during the 150 mile trip up. I did NOT notice this happening on the way
>> >back, although we took mostly back roads and only drove ~60 miles on the
>> >Interstate system on the return trip. [When we picked up the car we also
>> >drove Interstate and major highway for 30 miles and didn't have the
>> >pulsating issue.]
>> >
>> >The 99 Civic EX has ABS with rear drum/front disc brakes. Tires appear in
>> >"good condition" and are fairly noisy (Firestones). I have no idea what
>the
>> >condition of the brakes/rotors/drums are, but the car was "very clean"
>and
>> >I'm told that the original owner did mostly highway driving. For
>> >comparison, I have a 2001 Civic EX with ABS (discs front/rear, bought
>new)
>> >and have never noticed the pulsating brakes issue I describe above.
>> >
>> >I have to bring the car back to the dealer for mudflaps to be installed
>this
>> >week anyway, but I'd like some clue as to what may be causing the
>pulsating
>> >brake problem? [Of course the used car warranty is the useless 50-50 deal
>> >for 30 days/1K miles.]
>> >
>> >Thanks in advance for any hints that anyone might have on the cause of
>this
>> >problem.
>>
>> It's probably temp dependent rotor warp - endemic to many new cars now.
>> There's not enough mass in the rotors and they try to get away with
>venting
>> to cool them quicker which only aggravates the problem with uneven
>cooling.
>> IME one hard, high speed emergency stop is enough to start the problem.
>> You should check the wheel nuts torques to be sure they are even and
>> 80lb/ft but it likely won't help.
>>
>> The dealer will likely suggest turning but from my own observations with
>my
>> '99 Integra, the rotors are not warped when cold and the turning will just
>> reduce the mass further and could make things worse. The only solution is
>> new rotors and to hope they last a bit longer.
>>
>> BTW this site <http://www.importrp.com/home.html> is showing good prices
>on
>> Brembo OE type rotors. I haven't used them yet but if anyone has any
>> experience or remarks on them I'd like to hear.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

George,

It appears that you "nailed it". A ~20 mile trip on Saturday with both high
speed and abrupt slowdowns (totally predictable on this particular stretch
of highway) resulted in the problem re-occurring (although not as severe as
the first time).

Now to have a chat with the dealer who sold me the car and see what they are
willing to do.

Thanks again.

--

Regards,
Len Segal
--------------
My reply address is intentionally wrong to reduce SPAM Email.
Please post responses in newsgroup.

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
news:3f58e97b.34923369@news.tellurian.com...
> On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:29:47 GMT, "Len Segal" <msn_news@ne_ws.oom> wrote:
>
> >George,
> >
> >Many thanks for the reply. This sounds like quite a challenge to T/S!
> >Especially since a 60 mile highway trip home didn't cause the problem. I
> >guess that I need to get out more in rush hours to test this out! <g>
>
> There's been lots of discussion here and I've been I've been trying to
> diagnose this elusive warping for a while now. From what I see, based on
a
> suggestion of someone else, it appears that the pulsing is reproducible at
> certain speeds - e.g. it is almost certain to happen at ~80mph if you
brake
> fairly hard. Above that speed it's OK but as the car slows down past
80mph
> it starts... and once started it only goes away when the rotor cools down
> sufficiently.
>
> >Who makes the rotors for Honda?
>
> AFAIK most of the Honda brake parts are made by Nissin. There's been a
> suggestion that the parts sold in the U.S. under the AEM brand are also
> Nissin.
>
> > Never heard of Brembo.
>
> One of the most famous brake mfr names worldwide there is.:-) They are
> famous for their racing calipers and drilled rotors. It was my thought to
> try their OE type rotors since the Honda parts are all afflicted with the
> warp problem. The Brembo OE may be as bad but, from my POV, that's worth
> finding out.:-)
>
> > How big a job (DIY)
> >is it to replace the rotors (e.g. do they come with wheel bearings
> >installed)? Pressing in wheel bearings is not DIY unless you have the
proper
> >equipment (which I don't). [I've pulled rotors many years in the past
> >(either VW, German Mercury Capri or American Mercury). My last Toy Camry
and
> >Acura Integra didn't need this kind of work, so I've been lazy over the
past
> >16 years <g>.
>
> No - in most cases, apart from Accords between 1990 to 1997 (I think those
> are the years), the rotors are only held on the outer side of the hub with
> a set screw and you do not need to disturb the bearing. The worst part is
> getting the set screw out, which often ends up with drilling - there are a
> couple of threaded holes in the rotors which you turn a M8 bolt into to
> push the rotor off the hub.
>
> >--------------
> >My reply address is intentionally wrong to reduce SPAM Email.
> >Please post responses in newsgroup.
> >
> >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in
message
> >news:3f552097.49726888@news.tellurian.com...
> >> On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 14:22:22 GMT, "Len Segal" <msn_news@ne_ws.oom>
wrote:
> >>
> >> >Just purchased a 99 Civic EX (51K miles, with ABS) a week ago and had
the
> >> >first chance to really ring it out this long holiday weekend, which
leads
> >to
> >> >a question about some brake pulsing I experienced.
> >> >
> >> >On the Interstate we hit some weekend traffic which caused us to
> >literally
> >> >slow down to "0" mph. When braking on the way up, I experienced some
> >> >significant "pulsing" effects. These were NOT emergency stop
situations,
> >but
> >> >significant slowdowns over considerable distance. It happened multiple
> >times
> >> >during the 150 mile trip up. I did NOT notice this happening on the
way
> >> >back, although we took mostly back roads and only drove ~60 miles on
the
> >> >Interstate system on the return trip. [When we picked up the car we
also
> >> >drove Interstate and major highway for 30 miles and didn't have the
> >> >pulsating issue.]
> >> >
> >> >The 99 Civic EX has ABS with rear drum/front disc brakes. Tires appear
in
> >> >"good condition" and are fairly noisy (Firestones). I have no idea
what
> >the
> >> >condition of the brakes/rotors/drums are, but the car was "very clean"
> >and
> >> >I'm told that the original owner did mostly highway driving. For
> >> >comparison, I have a 2001 Civic EX with ABS (discs front/rear, bought
> >new)
> >> >and have never noticed the pulsating brakes issue I describe above.
> >> >
> >> >I have to bring the car back to the dealer for mudflaps to be
installed
> >this
> >> >week anyway, but I'd like some clue as to what may be causing the
> >pulsating
> >> >brake problem? [Of course the used car warranty is the useless 50-50
deal
> >> >for 30 days/1K miles.]
> >> >
> >> >Thanks in advance for any hints that anyone might have on the cause of
> >this
> >> >problem.
> >>
> >> It's probably temp dependent rotor warp - endemic to many new cars now.
> >> There's not enough mass in the rotors and they try to get away with
> >venting
> >> to cool them quicker which only aggravates the problem with uneven
> >cooling.
> >> IME one hard, high speed emergency stop is enough to start the problem.
> >> You should check the wheel nuts torques to be sure they are even and
> >> 80lb/ft but it likely won't help.
> >>
> >> The dealer will likely suggest turning but from my own observations
with
> >my
> >> '99 Integra, the rotors are not warped when cold and the turning will
just
> >> reduce the mass further and could make things worse. The only solution
is
> >> new rotors and to hope they last a bit longer.
> >>
> >> BTW this site <http://www.importrp.com/home.html> is showing good
prices
> >on
> >> Brembo OE type rotors. I haven't used them yet but if anyone has any
> >> experience or remarks on them I'd like to hear.
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who,
me??

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 16:48:44 GMT, "Len Segal" <msn_news@ne_ws.oom> wrote:

>George,
>
>It appears that you "nailed it". A ~20 mile trip on Saturday with both high
>speed and abrupt slowdowns (totally predictable on this particular stretch
>of highway) resulted in the problem re-occurring (although not as severe as
>the first time).
>
>Now to have a chat with the dealer who sold me the car and see what they are
>willing to do.

They'll probably suggest turning which is just a waste of time for reasons
I already mentioned. One thing you might try first is cleaning the rotors
- my warp got better when I cleaned the rotors off with an alcohol soaked
clean cloth... but not for long. Quicker method: it may also help to: with
the brakes cold, douse liberally with water from a hose and before it gets
a chance to dry off drive the car with the brakes lightly applied for a
short distance.

I also suspect that part of my problem started when I had to have some
bodywork done on my car and the shop "detailed" it, without informing me.
The "detailer" sprayed tire wet - I hate the stuff anyway - all over the
wheels and it got through onto the rotors.

Here's an article written by the late Carroll Smith on brake warp:
<http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm> - it's rather
esoteric and not clear how much of the info transfers to production cars...
but worth reading.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

My rotors fluttered only when braking at 65-80. It was turned twice.
It finally stopped with new tires. The effect is to drive 500 miles
and it'll clean and straigten out your rotors. I make it a habit of
expensive tires on front and balanced bi-annually. Works for me.

> >It appears that you "nailed it". A ~20 mile trip on Saturday with both high
> >speed and abrupt slowdowns (totally predictable on this particular stretch
> >of highway) resulted in the problem re-occurring (although not as severe as
> >the first time).
> >
> >Now to have a chat with the dealer who sold me the car and see what they are
> >willing to do.
>
> They'll probably suggest turning which is just a waste of time for reasons
> I already mentioned. One thing you might try first is cleaning the rotors
> - my warp got better when I cleaned the rotors off with an alcohol soaked
> clean cloth... but not for long. Quicker method: it may also help to: with
> the brakes cold, douse liberally with water from a hose and before it gets
> a chance to dry off drive the car with the brakes lightly applied for a
> short distance.
>
> I also suspect that part of my problem started when I had to have some
> bodywork done on my car and the shop "detailed" it, without informing me.
> The "detailer" sprayed tire wet - I hate the stuff anyway - all over the
> wheels and it got through onto the rotors.
>
> Here's an article written by the late Carroll Smith on brake warp:
> <http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm> - it's rather
> esoteric and not clear how much of the info transfers to production cars...
> but worth reading.
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

On 9 Sep 2003 22:49:11 -0700, apple26pie@yahoo.com (Koji San) wrote:

>My rotors fluttered only when braking at 65-80. It was turned twice.
>It finally stopped with new tires. The effect is to drive 500 miles
>and it'll clean and straigten out your rotors. I make it a habit of
>expensive tires on front and balanced bi-annually. Works for me.

Tires being able to straighten out bent rotors doesn't sound too convincing
to me.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??