Honda Car Forum

#1 (**permalink**) 27 Aug 2003, 01:35 pm

Hi!
This is for babadi and those who replied to him. As someone who
has been involved with cars and engines of different types for a long
time, including our current 2003 Accord, here is my opinion: Accepting
the validity of the factory recommended initial oil change period on new
engines(the factory installed oil does indeed have some extra
additives), no engine ever wore out or developed problems prematurely
because of too frequent oil changes. There is however, lots of evidence
that when the oil/filter is not changed often enough, problems will
occur. This applies to all engines--automotive general use, automotive
racing, boat engines, aircraft engines(piston type), truck engines,
industrial engines, lawn mower engines, etc. etc. Why a given car
manufacturer would specify a long oil change interval after the break in
period is over is something I don't care to comment on here, but you
might want to think about why they would do that.

Ken

babadi wrote:

>Greetings,
>
>What would be an appropriate interval at which to change the oil on a 2003
>CRV? It has just over 3000 miles at this point, and a friend suggested
>doing it now, even though the manual says it should be done only after
>5000-10,000 miles (depending on the "severity" of your driving.) Most of my
>driving is on congested suburban streets and highways.
>
>Thanks.
>
>

#2 (**permalink**) 28 Aug 2003, 03:08 pm

Hey, thanks, George, I was considering an oil change (5,000 miles, Civic Si,
hot weather) even though I knew basically what you said. You've made up my
mind with that excellent post to refrain for a few thousand miles more.

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
news:3f4db040.72994943@news.tellurian.com...
| On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:35:53 GMT, "Kenneth J. Harris"
| <kharris@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
|
| >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
| >--------------030003000205080904020607
| >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
| >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| >
| >Hi!
| > This is for babadi and those who replied to him. As someone who
| >has been involved with cars and engines of different types for a long
| >time, including our current 2003 Accord, here is my opinion: Accepting
| >the validity of the factory recommended initial oil change period on new
| >engines(the factory installed oil does indeed have some extra
| >additives), no engine ever wore out or developed problems prematurely
| >because of too frequent oil changes.
|
| Depends what you mean by wear out - they *may* develop other problems,
like
| high oil consumption due to leaky rings which were never bedded in
| properly. Honda is not alone here with their "special" break-in oil and
| the results of ignoring their recommendations *are* known. See here:
| <http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/65043.phtml>
|
| > There is however, lots of evidence
| >that when the oil/filter is not changed often enough, problems will
| >occur. This applies to all engines--automotive general use, automotive
| >racing, boat engines, aircraft engines(piston type), truck engines,
| >industrial engines, lawn mower engines, etc. etc. Why a given car
| >manufacturer would specify a long oil change interval after the break in
| >period is over is something I don't care to comment on here, but you
| >might want to think about why they would do that.
|
| Things change!
|
| >
| >babadi wrote:
| >
| >>Greetings,
| >>
| >>What would be an appropriate interval at which to change the oil on a
2003
| >>CRV? It has just over 3000 miles at this point, and a friend suggested
| >>doing it now, even though the manual says it should be done only after
| >>5000-10,000 miles (depending on the "severity" of your driving.) Most of
my
| >>driving is on congested suburban streets and highways.
| >>
| >>Thanks.
| >>
| >>
| >
| >--------------030003000205080904020607
| >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
| >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| >
| ><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
| ><html>
| ><head>
| > <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
| > <title></title>
| ></head>
| ><body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
| >Hi! 
| >     This is for babadi and those who replied to
him.  As someone who
| >has been involved with cars and engines of different types for a long
| >time, including our current 2003 Accord, here is my opinion: 
Accepting
| >the validity of the factory recommended initial oil change period on
| >new engines(the factory installed oil does indeed have some extra
| >additives), no engine ever wore out or developed problems prematurely
| >because of too frequent oil changes.  There is however, lots
of
| >evidence that when the oil/filter is not changed often enough,
| >problems will occur.  This applies to all engines--automotive
general
| >use, automotive racing, boat engines, aircraft engines(piston type),
| >truck engines, industrial engines, lawn mower engines, etc. etc. 
Why a
| >given car manufacturer would specify a long oil change interval after
| >the break in period is over is something I don't care to comment on
| >here, but you might want to think about why they would do that. 
| > 
| >Ken 
| > 
| >babadi wrote: 
| ><blockquote type="cite"
| > cite="midXns93E47FBC42A54martinREMOVETOREPLYg@167. 206.3.3">
| > <pre wrap="">Greetings,
| >
| >What would be an appropriate interval at which to change the oil on a
2003
| >CRV? It has just over 3000 miles at this point, and a friend suggested
| >doing it now, even though the manual says it should be done only after
| >5000-10,000 miles (depending on the "severity" of your driving.) Most of
my
| >driving is on congested suburban streets and highways.
| >
| >Thanks.
| > </pre>
| ></blockquote>
| ></body>
| ></html>
| >
| >--------------030003000205080904020607--
| >
|
| Rgds, George Macdonald
|
| "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who,
me??

#3 (**permalink**) 05 Sep 2003, 08:45 pm

George McD:

I read the below attached,as well as the posting on the Audi World Forum
which you presented as a link, with interest. I changed the oil on my 03
Honda Element at 2300 or so miles, even though the manual said 10K for
the first change. I got conflicting advice from Honda dealership
personnel, including, "there is no break -in oil in use any more by
Honda". No matter who I asked and where I looked I was unable to find
any specifics or any conclusive technical discussion, including in the
Manual, which did not "educate" as to a break in oil, but just made the
statemnent that the oil should be left in for 10K. I would have found
it helpful and persuasive if I had been told, by Honda somewhere, that
there is a special oil in use, what it does, what the too early dumping
of it might do, if putting such oil back in later could compensate for
or correct any of the improper breaking in that might have taken place,
etc. Ie., the point by Don on AudiWorld that we should not second
guess the engineers is a good point, but this point would have been
stronger if the engineers had presented an explanation that accompannied
their proscription, in the manual. Surely they must know how much fable
and fiction and misinformation exists regarding this topic.
I come from an era where a 1000 mile oil change was not excessive; I
also had a mechanical engineer for a father, one who wanted to
understand the underlying chemistry and physics, and was not content
with pat rules and proscriptions.

Assuming Honda will now sell me "break-in oil", is there any point in
putting it in, at 14000 miles???

Thanks to any and all.

George Macdonald wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:35:53 GMT, "Kenneth J. Harris"
> <kharris@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
>
>
>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>>--------------030003000205080904020607
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>Hi!
>> This is for babadi and those who replied to him. As someone who
>>has been involved with cars and engines of different types for a long
>>time, including our current 2003 Accord, here is my opinion: Accepting
>>the validity of the factory recommended initial oil change period on new
>>engines(the factory installed oil does indeed have some extra
>>additives), no engine ever wore out or developed problems prematurely
>>because of too frequent oil changes.
>
>
> Depends what you mean by wear out - they *may* develop other problems, like
> high oil consumption due to leaky rings which were never bedded in
> properly. Honda is not alone here with their "special" break-in oil and
> the results of ignoring their recommendations *are* known. See here:
> <http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/65043.phtml>
>
>> There is however, lots of evidence
>>that when the oil/filter is not changed often enough, problems will
>>occur. This applies to all engines--automotive general use, automotive
>>racing, boat engines, aircraft engines(piston type), truck engines,
>>industrial engines, lawn mower engines, etc. etc. Why a given car
>>manufacturer would specify a long oil change interval after the break in
>>period is over is something I don't care to comment on here, but you
>>might want to think about why they would do that.
>
>
> Things change!
>
>
>>babadi wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Greetings,
>>>
>>>What would be an appropriate interval at which to change the oil on a 2003
>>>CRV? It has just over 3000 miles at this point, and a friend suggested
>>>doing it now, even though the manual says it should be done only after
>>>5000-10,000 miles (depending on the "severity" of your driving.) Most of my
>>>driving is on congested suburban streets and highways.
>>>
>>>Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--------------030003000205080904020607
>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
>><html>
>><head>
>> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
>> <title></title>
>></head>
>><body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
>>Hi! 
>>     This is for babadi and those who replied to him.  As someone who
>>has been involved with cars and engines of different types for a long
>>time, including our current 2003 Accord, here is my opinion:  Accepting
>>the validity of the factory recommended initial oil change period on
>>new engines(the factory installed oil does indeed have some extra
>>additives), no engine ever wore out or developed problems prematurely
>>because of too frequent oil changes.  There is however, lots of
>>evidence that when the oil/filter is not changed often enough,
>>problems will occur.  This applies to all engines--automotive general
>>use, automotive racing, boat engines, aircraft engines(piston type),
>>truck engines, industrial engines, lawn mower engines, etc. etc.  Why a
>>given car manufacturer would specify a long oil change interval after
>>the break in period is over is something I don't care to comment on
>>here, but you might want to think about why they would do that. 
>> 
>>Ken 
>> 
>>babadi wrote: 
>><blockquote type="cite"
>>cite="midXns93E47FBC42A54martinREMOVETOREPLYg@16 7.206.3.3">
>> <pre wrap="">Greetings,
>>
>>What would be an appropriate interval at which to change the oil on a 2003
>>CRV? It has just over 3000 miles at this point, and a friend suggested
>>doing it now, even though the manual says it should be done only after
>>5000-10,000 miles (depending on the "severity" of your driving.) Most of my
>>driving is on congested suburban streets and highways.
>>
>>Thanks.
>> </pre>
>></blockquote>
>></body>
>></html>
>>
>>--------------030003000205080904020607--
>>
>
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

#4 (**permalink**) 06 Sep 2003, 09:44 am

No, your engine is fine. Feel free to run regular dino or synthetic
oil. Worst case IMHO would be that it MAY start consuming some oil a
little earlier, maybe at 100,000 miles instead of 120,000 miles.

I have been following the whole break in issue for years online and my
only conclusion is that its probably best not to run synthetic oil until
the engine is broken in - anywhere from 3k miles to 7k miles depending
on the car.

In article <3F593C1C.1020002@worldlynx.net>,
sam <innomid@worldlynx.net> wrote:

> George McD:
>
> I read the below attached,as well as the posting on the Audi World Forum
> which you presented as a link, with interest. I changed the oil on my 03
> Honda Element at 2300 or so miles, even though the manual said 10K for
> the first change. I got conflicting advice from Honda dealership
> personnel, including, "there is no break -in oil in use any more by
> Honda". No matter who I asked and where I looked I was unable to find
> any specifics or any conclusive technical discussion, including in the
> Manual, which did not "educate" as to a break in oil, but just made the
> statemnent that the oil should be left in for 10K. I would have found
> it helpful and persuasive if I had been told, by Honda somewhere, that
> there is a special oil in use, what it does, what the too early dumping
> of it might do, if putting such oil back in later could compensate for
> or correct any of the improper breaking in that might have taken place,
> etc. Ie., the point by Don on AudiWorld that we should not second
> guess the engineers is a good point, but this point would have been
> stronger if the engineers had presented an explanation that accompannied
> their proscription, in the manual. Surely they must know how much fable
> and fiction and misinformation exists regarding this topic.
> I come from an era where a 1000 mile oil change was not excessive; I
> also had a mechanical engineer for a father, one who wanted to
> understand the underlying chemistry and physics, and was not content
> with pat rules and proscriptions.
>
> Assuming Honda will now sell me "break-in oil", is there any point in
> putting it in, at 14000 miles???
>
> Thanks to any and all.
>
> George Macdonald wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:35:53 GMT, "Kenneth J. Harris"
> > <kharris@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >>--------------030003000205080904020607
> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >>
> >>Hi!
> >> This is for babadi and those who replied to him. As someone who
> >>has been involved with cars and engines of different types for a long
> >>time, including our current 2003 Accord, here is my opinion: Accepting
> >>the validity of the factory recommended initial oil change period on new
> >>engines(the factory installed oil does indeed have some extra
> >>additives), no engine ever wore out or developed problems prematurely
> >>because of too frequent oil changes.
> >
> >
> > Depends what you mean by wear out - they *may* develop other problems, like
> > high oil consumption due to leaky rings which were never bedded in
> > properly. Honda is not alone here with their "special" break-in oil and
> > the results of ignoring their recommendations *are* known. See here:
> > <http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/65043.phtml>
> >
> >> There is however, lots of evidence
> >>that when the oil/filter is not changed often enough, problems will
> >>occur. This applies to all engines--automotive general use, automotive
> >>racing, boat engines, aircraft engines(piston type), truck engines,
> >>industrial engines, lawn mower engines, etc. etc. Why a given car
> >>manufacturer would specify a long oil change interval after the break in
> >>period is over is something I don't care to comment on here, but you
> >>might want to think about why they would do that.
> >
> >
> > Things change!
> >
> >
> >>babadi wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Greetings,
> >>>
> >>>What would be an appropriate interval at which to change the oil on a 2003
> >>>CRV? It has just over 3000 miles at this point, and a friend suggested
> >>>doing it now, even though the manual says it should be done only after
> >>>5000-10,000 miles (depending on the "severity" of your driving.) Most of
> >>>my
> >>>driving is on congested suburban streets and highways.
> >>>
> >>>Thanks.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>--------------030003000205080904020607
> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >>
> >><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
> >><html>
> >><head>
> >> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
> >> <title></title>
> >></head>
> >><body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
> >>Hi! 
> >>     This is for babadi and those who replied to
> >>him.  As someone who
> >>has been involved with cars and engines of different types for a long
> >>time, including our current 2003 Accord, here is my opinion: 
> >>Accepting
> >>the validity of the factory recommended initial oil change period on
> >>new engines(the factory installed oil does indeed have some extra
> >>additives), no engine ever wore out or developed problems prematurely
> >>because of too frequent oil changes.  There is however, lots of
> >>evidence that when the oil/filter is not changed often enough,
> >>problems will occur.  This applies to all engines--automotive general
> >>use, automotive racing, boat engines, aircraft engines(piston type),
> >>truck engines, industrial engines, lawn mower engines, etc. etc.  Why
> >>a
> >>given car manufacturer would specify a long oil change interval after
> >>the break in period is over is something I don't care to comment on
> >>here, but you might want to think about why they would do that. 
> >> 
> >>Ken 
> >> 
> >>babadi wrote: 
> >><blockquote type="cite"
> >>cite="midXns93E47FBC42A54martinREMOVETOREPLYg@16 7.206.3.3">
> >> <pre wrap="">Greetings,
> >>
> >>What would be an appropriate interval at which to change the oil on a 2003
> >>CRV? It has just over 3000 miles at this point, and a friend suggested
> >>doing it now, even though the manual says it should be done only after
> >>5000-10,000 miles (depending on the "severity" of your driving.) Most of my
> >>driving is on congested suburban streets and highways.
> >>
> >>Thanks.
> >> </pre>
> >></blockquote>
> >></body>
> >></html>
> >>
> >>--------------030003000205080904020607--
> >>
> >
> >
> > Rgds, George Macdonald
> >
> > "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who,
> > me??
>

#5 (**permalink**) 06 Sep 2003, 07:30 pm

"sam" <innomid@worldlynx.net> wrote in message
news:3F593C1C.1020002@worldlynx.net...
> George McD:
>
> I read the below attached,as well as the posting on the Audi World Forum
> which you presented as a link, with interest. I changed the oil on my 03
> Honda Element at 2300 or so miles, even though the manual said 10K for
> the first change. I got conflicting advice from Honda dealership
> personnel, including, "there is no break -in oil in use any more by
> Honda". No matter who I asked and where I looked I was unable to find
> any specifics or any conclusive technical discussion, including in the
> Manual, which did not "educate" as to a break in oil, but just made the
> statemnent that the oil should be left in for 10K. I would have found
> it helpful and persuasive if I had been told, by Honda somewhere, that
> there is a special oil in use, what it does, what the too early dumping
> of it might do, if putting such oil back in later could compensate for
> or correct any of the improper breaking in that might have taken place,
> etc. Ie., the point by Don on AudiWorld that we should not second
> guess the engineers is a good point, but this point would have been
> stronger if the engineers had presented an explanation that accompannied
> their proscription, in the manual. Surely they must know how much fable
> and fiction and misinformation exists regarding this topic.
> I come from an era where a 1000 mile oil change was not excessive; I
> also had a mechanical engineer for a father, one who wanted to
> understand the underlying chemistry and physics, and was not content
> with pat rules and proscriptions.
>
> Assuming Honda will now sell me "break-in oil", is there any point in
> putting it in, at 14000 miles???
>
> Thanks to any and all.

Why are you still asking for advice? You ignored written instructions by
Honda and the solid advice from Don on AudiWorld for what purpose? Your
engine has an oil filter which is very effective in catching metal particles
and dirt from initial assembly. You had very little to gain by changing the
oil prematurely. You now face the risk of permanent high oil consumption
from unseated piston rings. Did it ever occur to you that if Honda really
felt it was advantageous to change the oil at 2300 miles, they would have
recommend this in the manual? Honda engines will last a very long time if
you just follow the recommended maintenace intervals.

#6 (**permalink**) 06 Sep 2003, 10:42 pm

What is obvious to you, and to me in hindsight, is not always obvious at
the start of a process. You have apparently been involved with these
things for a long time, I just bought my first new vehicle in 23 years.
Honda in their manual made a statement about changing the oil at 10 k;
they did not offer any explanation for this. There was no reference to
proper seating of rings or other things. People at various Honda
dealerships (who presumably should know something) said completely
conflicting things. There is a lot of advice from a lot of people on
both sides of the issue- The old wisdom -change the oil more rather
than less- get rid of particles that might remain in the block from the
manufacturing process, etc- is deep seated in many of us.
I am merely trying to say that a clear explication from the Honda people
as to WHY it would be better to leave the initial oil in - ie., the
seating of the rings etc., would have been helpful and persuasive. the
fact that this question comes up so often should say something.

The Don on AudiWorld advice I did not see until a few days ago, 4 months
too late.

I have gotten some thoughtful responses on this list, and I am grateful
for them.

<> wrote:
> "sam" <innomid@worldlynx.net> wrote in message
> news:3F593C1C.1020002@worldlynx.net...
>
>>George McD:
>>
>>I read the below attached,as well as the posting on the Audi World Forum
>>which you presented as a link, with interest. I changed the oil on my 03
>>Honda Element at 2300 or so miles, even though the manual said 10K for
>>the first change. I got conflicting advice from Honda dealership
>>personnel, including, "there is no break -in oil in use any more by
>>Honda". No matter who I asked and where I looked I was unable to find
>>any specifics or any conclusive technical discussion, including in the
>>Manual, which did not "educate" as to a break in oil, but just made the
>>statemnent that the oil should be left in for 10K. I would have found
>>it helpful and persuasive if I had been told, by Honda somewhere, that
>>there is a special oil in use, what it does, what the too early dumping
>>of it might do, if putting such oil back in later could compensate for
>>or correct any of the improper breaking in that might have taken place,
>>etc. Ie., the point by Don on AudiWorld that we should not second
>>guess the engineers is a good point, but this point would have been
>>stronger if the engineers had presented an explanation that accompannied
>>their proscription, in the manual. Surely they must know how much fable
>>and fiction and misinformation exists regarding this topic.
>>I come from an era where a 1000 mile oil change was not excessive; I
>>also had a mechanical engineer for a father, one who wanted to
>>understand the underlying chemistry and physics, and was not content
>>with pat rules and proscriptions.
>>
>>Assuming Honda will now sell me "break-in oil", is there any point in
>>putting it in, at 14000 miles???
>>
>>Thanks to any and all.
>
>
> Why are you still asking for advice? You ignored written instructions by
> Honda and the solid advice from Don on AudiWorld for what purpose? Your
> engine has an oil filter which is very effective in catching metal particles
> and dirt from initial assembly. You had very little to gain by changing the
> oil prematurely. You now face the risk of permanent high oil consumption
> from unseated piston rings. Did it ever occur to you that if Honda really
> felt it was advantageous to change the oil at 2300 miles, they would have
> recommend this in the manual? Honda engines will last a very long time if
> you just follow the recommended maintenace intervals.
>
>

#7 (**permalink**) 07 Sep 2003, 06:46 am

On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 21:45:00 -0400, sam <innomid@worldlynx.net> wrote:

>George McD:
>
>I read the below attached,as well as the posting on the Audi World Forum
>which you presented as a link, with interest. I changed the oil on my 03
>Honda Element at 2300 or so miles, even though the manual said 10K for
>the first change. I got conflicting advice from Honda dealership
>personnel, including, "there is no break -in oil in use any more by
>Honda". No matter who I asked and where I looked I was unable to find
>any specifics or any conclusive technical discussion, including in the
>Manual, which did not "educate" as to a break in oil, but just made the
>statemnent that the oil should be left in for 10K. I would have found
>it helpful and persuasive if I had been told, by Honda somewhere, that
>there is a special oil in use, what it does, what the too early dumping
>of it might do, if putting such oil back in later could compensate for
>or correct any of the improper breaking in that might have taken place,
>etc. Ie., the point by Don on AudiWorld that we should not second
>guess the engineers is a good point, but this point would have been
>stronger if the engineers had presented an explanation that accompannied
>their proscription, in the manual. Surely they must know how much fable
>and fiction and misinformation exists regarding this topic.
>I come from an era where a 1000 mile oil change was not excessive; I
>also had a mechanical engineer for a father, one who wanted to
>understand the underlying chemistry and physics, and was not content
>with pat rules and proscriptions.

I know what you mean about wanting to know the whys and hows, rather than
taking advice "blindly". If you register and login at the Honda Owner Link
Web site, at this page
<http://www.ahm-ownerlink.com/Maintenance/maint_faqs.asp?faq=oil>, you'll
see the following:

"Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?
Your Acura engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated
for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns
and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.
American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine
long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first
maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your
specific driving conditions."

I wish there was more on the details but it does correspond with what Randy
Hubbard says, quoted by Don, in the Audiworld msg and he has credentials
which I'm willing to accept. We also know that with new advanced CNC
systems for the mfr of pistons, sleeves, rings etc. the parts in a modern
engine are much better finished at installation.

>Assuming Honda will now sell me "break-in oil", is there any point in
>putting it in, at 14000 miles???

I'd think not. It's my impression that the presence of the "minute
particles" is important in the developing wear patterns. OTOH I don't
think you should be too worried... remembering that conventional thinking
used to be that one should do the initial change at 500miles or so.

The way I read things is that you should do the inital change at the
interval defined according to the schedule expected over the future life of
the car. IOW if your driving profile fits the "normal" pattern, which I
think is fairly unusual, at 10K miles; if you fit the severe schedule, then
at 5K(?) miles or so. Also remember that the 10K schedule is recent and
for many people, quite controversial; just a couple of years back, Honda
was recommending 7.5K and 3750 as the normal and severe schedules.

>
>George Macdonald wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:35:53 GMT, "Kenneth J. Harris"
>> <kharris@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>>>--------------030003000205080904020607
>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>>
>>>Hi!
>>> This is for babadi and those who replied to him. As someone who
>>>has been involved with cars and engines of different types for a long
>>>time, including our current 2003 Accord, here is my opinion: Accepting
>>>the validity of the factory recommended initial oil change period on new
>>>engines(the factory installed oil does indeed have some extra
>>>additives), no engine ever wore out or developed problems prematurely
>>>because of too frequent oil changes.
>>
>>
>> Depends what you mean by wear out - they *may* develop other problems, like
>> high oil consumption due to leaky rings which were never bedded in
>> properly. Honda is not alone here with their "special" break-in oil and
>> the results of ignoring their recommendations *are* known. See here:
>> <http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/65043.phtml>
>>
>>> There is however, lots of evidence
>>>that when the oil/filter is not changed often enough, problems will
>>>occur. This applies to all engines--automotive general use, automotive
>>>racing, boat engines, aircraft engines(piston type), truck engines,
>>>industrial engines, lawn mower engines, etc. etc. Why a given car
>>>manufacturer would specify a long oil change interval after the break in
>>>period is over is something I don't care to comment on here, but you
>>>might want to think about why they would do that.
>>
>>
>> Things change!
>>
>>
>>>babadi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Greetings,
>>>>
>>>>What would be an appropriate interval at which to change the oil on a 2003
>>>>CRV? It has just over 3000 miles at this point, and a friend suggested
>>>>doing it now, even though the manual says it should be done only after
>>>>5000-10,000 miles (depending on the "severity" of your driving.) Most of my
>>>>driving is on congested suburban streets and highways.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>--------------030003000205080904020607
>>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>>
>>><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
>>><html>
>>><head>
>>> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
>>> <title></title>
>>></head>
>>><body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
>>>Hi! 
>>>     This is for babadi and those who replied to him.  As someone who
>>>has been involved with cars and engines of different types for a long
>>>time, including our current 2003 Accord, here is my opinion:  Accepting
>>>the validity of the factory recommended initial oil change period on
>>>new engines(the factory installed oil does indeed have some extra
>>>additives), no engine ever wore out or developed problems prematurely
>>>because of too frequent oil changes.  There is however, lots of
>>>evidence that when the oil/filter is not changed often enough,
>>>problems will occur.  This applies to all engines--automotive general
>>>use, automotive racing, boat engines, aircraft engines(piston type),
>>>truck engines, industrial engines, lawn mower engines, etc. etc.  Why a
>>>given car manufacturer would specify a long oil change interval after
>>>the break in period is over is something I don't care to comment on
>>>here, but you might want to think about why they would do that. 
>>> 
>>>Ken 
>>> 
>>>babadi wrote: 
>>><blockquote type="cite"
>>>cite="midXns93E47FBC42A54martinREMOVETOREPLYg@1 67.206.3.3">
>>> <pre wrap="">Greetings,
>>>
>>>What would be an appropriate interval at which to change the oil on a 2003
>>>CRV? It has just over 3000 miles at this point, and a friend suggested
>>>doing it now, even though the manual says it should be done only after
>>>5000-10,000 miles (depending on the "severity" of your driving.) Most of my
>>>driving is on congested suburban streets and highways.
>>>
>>>Thanks.
>>> </pre>
>>></blockquote>
>>></body>
>>></html>
>>>
>>>--------------030003000205080904020607--
>>>
>>
>>
>> Rgds, George Macdonald
>>
>> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
>

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

#8 (**permalink**) 14 Sep 2003, 06:38 pm

fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com (George Macdonald) wrote in message news:<3f5b057f.9125361@news.tellurian.com>...
> On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 21:45:00 -0400, sam <innomid@worldlynx.net> wrote:
>
> >George McD:
> >
> >I read the below attached,as well as the posting on the Audi World Forum
> >which you presented as a link, with interest. I changed the oil on my 03
> >Honda Element at 2300 or so miles, even though the manual said 10K for
> >the first change. I got conflicting advice from Honda dealership
> >personnel, including, "there is no break -in oil in use any more by
> >Honda". No matter who I asked and where I looked I was unable to find
> >any specifics or any conclusive technical discussion, including in the
> >Manual, which did not "educate" as to a break in oil, but just made the
> >statemnent that the oil should be left in for 10K. I would have found
> >it helpful and persuasive if I had been told, by Honda somewhere, that
> >there is a special oil in use, what it does, what the too early dumping
> >of it might do, if putting such oil back in later could compensate for
> >or correct any of the improper breaking in that might have taken place,
> >etc. Ie., the point by Don on AudiWorld that we should not second
> >guess the engineers is a good point, but this point would have been
> >stronger if the engineers had presented an explanation that accompannied
> >their proscription, in the manual. Surely they must know how much fable
> >and fiction and misinformation exists regarding this topic.
> >I come from an era where a 1000 mile oil change was not excessive; I
> >also had a mechanical engineer for a father, one who wanted to
> >understand the underlying chemistry and physics, and was not content
> >with pat rules and proscriptions.
>
> I know what you mean about wanting to know the whys and hows, rather than
> taking advice "blindly". If you register and login at the Honda Owner Link
> Web site, at this page
> <http://www.ahm-ownerlink.com/Maintenance/maint_faqs.asp?faq=oil>, you'll
> see the following:
>
> "Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?
> Your Acura engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated
> for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns
> and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.
> American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine
> long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first
> maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your
> specific driving conditions."
>
> I wish there was more on the details but it does correspond with what Randy
> Hubbard says, quoted by Don, in the Audiworld msg and he has credentials
> which I'm willing to accept. We also know that with new advanced CNC
> systems for the mfr of pistons, sleeves, rings etc. the parts in a modern
> engine are much better finished at installation.
>
> >Assuming Honda will now sell me "break-in oil", is there any point in
> >putting it in, at 14000 miles???
>
> I'd think not. It's my impression that the presence of the "minute
> particles" is important in the developing wear patterns. OTOH I don't
> think you should be too worried... remembering that conventional thinking
> used to be that one should do the initial change at 500miles or so.
>
> The way I read things is that you should do the inital change at the
> interval defined according to the schedule expected over the future life of
> the car. IOW if your driving profile fits the "normal" pattern, which I
> think is fairly unusual, at 10K miles; if you fit the severe schedule, then
> at 5K(?) miles or so. Also remember that the 10K schedule is recent and
> for many people, quite controversial; just a couple of years back, Honda
> was recommending 7.5K and 3750 as the normal and severe schedules.
>
> >
> >George Macdonald wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:35:53 GMT, "Kenneth J. Harris"
> >> <kharris@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >>>--------------030003000205080904020607
> >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> >>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >>>
> >>>Hi!
> >>> This is for babadi and those who replied to him. As someone who
> >>>has been involved with cars and engines of different types for a long
> >>>time, including our current 2003 Accord, here is my opinion: Accepting
> >>>the validity of the factory recommended initial oil change period on new
> >>>engines(the factory installed oil does indeed have some extra
> >>>additives), no engine ever wore out or developed problems prematurely
> >>>because of too frequent oil changes.
> >>
> >>
> >> Depends what you mean by wear out - they *may* develop other problems, like
> >> high oil consumption due to leaky rings which were never bedded in
> >> properly. Honda is not alone here with their "special" break-in oil and
> >> the results of ignoring their recommendations *are* known. See here:
> >> <http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/65043.phtml>
> >>
> >>> There is however, lots of evidence
> >>>that when the oil/filter is not changed often enough, problems will
> >>>occur. This applies to all engines--automotive general use, automotive
> >>>racing, boat engines, aircraft engines(piston type), truck engines,
> >>>industrial engines, lawn mower engines, etc. etc. Why a given car
> >>>manufacturer would specify a long oil change interval after the break in
> >>>period is over is something I don't care to comment on here, but you
> >>>might want to think about why they would do that.
> >>
> >>
> >> Things change!
> >>
> >>
> >>>babadi wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Greetings,
> >>>>
> >>>>What would be an appropriate interval at which to change the oil on a 2003
> >>>>CRV? It has just over 3000 miles at this point, and a friend suggested
> >>>>doing it now, even though the manual says it should be done only after
> >>>>5000-10,000 miles (depending on the "severity" of your driving.) Most of my
> >>>>driving is on congested suburban streets and highways.
> >>>>
> >>>>Thanks.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>--------------030003000205080904020607
> >>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> >>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >>>
> >>><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
> >>><html>
> >>><head>
> >>> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
> >>> <title></title>
> >>></head>
> >>><body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
> >>>Hi! 
> >>>     This is for babadi and those who replied to him.  As someone who
> >>>has been involved with cars and engines of different types for a long
> >>>time, including our current 2003 Accord, here is my opinion:  Accepting
> >>>the validity of the factory recommended initial oil change period on
> >>>new engines(the factory installed oil does indeed have some extra
> >>>additives), no engine ever wore out or developed problems prematurely
> >>>because of too frequent oil changes.  There is however, lots of
> >>>evidence that when the oil/filter is not changed often enough,
> >>>problems will occur.  This applies to all engines--automotive general
> >>>use, automotive racing, boat engines, aircraft engines(piston type),
> >>>truck engines, industrial engines, lawn mower engines, etc. etc.  Why a
> >>>given car manufacturer would specify a long oil change interval after
> >>>the break in period is over is something I don't care to comment on
> >>>here, but you might want to think about why they would do that. 
> >>> 
> >>>Ken 
> >>> 
> >>>babadi wrote: 
> >>><blockquote type="cite"
> >>>cite="midXns93E47FBC42A54martinREMOVETOREPLYg@1 67.206.3.3">
> >>> <pre wrap="">Greetings,
> >>>
> >>>What would be an appropriate interval at which to change the oil on a 2003
> >>>CRV? It has just over 3000 miles at this point, and a friend suggested
> >>>doing it now, even though the manual says it should be done only after
> >>>5000-10,000 miles (depending on the "severity" of your driving.) Most of my
> >>>driving is on congested suburban streets and highways.
> >>>
> >>>Thanks.
> >>> </pre>
> >>></blockquote>
> >>></body>
> >>></html>
> >>>
> >>>--------------030003000205080904020607--
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Rgds, George Macdonald
> >>
> >> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
> >
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

Well, I'm changing ht eoil in my Ex V6 tomorrow at 3200 miles. I used
to change it at 2000 the first time. My Honda dealer has its own
maintenance book at is recoimmending the first change at 3750 for $12.
Of course, they want to make money... but I think the prudent thing
to do is stick closer to 4k-5k than waiting until 10k. MTFWTAW.

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