Honda Car Forum

My car has 145,000km and I've been getting the oil changed religiously
at every 5000km. Anyways, today I took it at the Honda dealership for an
oil change, drove it home and checked the oil. The oil in the engine was
obviously fresh from the resent change, but it was already dirty. I took
the car back to the dealership and inquired about the problem and the
service rep told me it was because my engine was old. And, I needed to
have my engine flushed. I've had many cars in the past and have yet to
encounter a situation in which the oil would gets fowled up over a 15km
drive. The Honda Rep acted as if its was common knowledge that an older
car's oil would be dirty after an oil change. Can anyone support her
conclusion???

btw, I'm planning to get the oil changed again (next week) at a local
mechanic shop while i'm on site. I'm going to ensure the the oil filter
is replaced and I doubt I'd encounter the same situation described
above. The most frustrating thing about this entire situation is that
I've been giving the bastard mobil-1 to use (I wonder what they've been
doing with in...).

Pars
98 Hatch

"pars" <"sdaro(remove)"@hotmail.com> wrote
> My car has 145,000km and I've been getting the oil changed religiously
> at every 5000km. Anyways, today I took it at the Honda dealership for an
> oil change, drove it home and checked the oil. The oil in the engine was
> obviously fresh from the resent change, but it was already dirty.

"fresh... but... dirty"? This is kind of a confusing statement. Do you have
a lot of experience checking the oil appearance before and after an oil
change? I just want to check this...

> I took
> the car back to the dealership and inquired about the problem and the
> service rep told me it was because my engine was old. And, I needed to
> have my engine flushed. I've had many cars in the past and have yet to
> encounter a situation in which the oil would gets fowled up over a 15km
> drive. The Honda Rep acted as if its was common knowledge that an older
> car's oil would be dirty after an oil change. Can anyone support her
> conclusion???

I've had experience with oil changes in two cars having over 115k kilometers
on them, and I have never observed dirty-looking oil after driving only a
short distance. (I always change the oil filter, too, on these oil changes,
BTW.) The oil always looks pretty golden for at least hundreds of miles;
probably over a thousand or even two thousand (depending on the quality of
the filter I used?). My cars have never had an "engine flush." Does she mean
an injector cleaning? Or use of a fuel additive that allegedly cleans the
engine's cylinders and valves?

I did replace my positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) valve recently, and
this seems to have resulted in cleaner oil for a longer time. It's a roughly
$20 or under part and takes under ten minutes for an experienced technician
to change out. Have you had this replaced yet? If not, I'd say you're due. I
now plan to change mine out around every 100k kilometers; maybe more often.

> btw, I'm planning to get the oil changed again (next week) at a local
> mechanic shop while i'm on site.

Have them give the old oil and old filter back to you. Compare it to some
new oil of the same brand. Maybe this shop would be willing to break open
the old filter and give their opinion on whether it's fairly new.

> I'm going to ensure the the oil filter
> is replaced and I doubt I'd encounter the same situation described
> above. The most frustrating thing about this entire situation is that
> I've been giving the bastard mobil-1 to use (I wonder what they've been
> doing with in...).

I have only used non-synthetic oils in my Honda, so I can't comment on
Mobil-1. (Been thinking about switching, though. Need to research it.)

Let the group know what happens... :-)

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 05:37:31 -0400, pars <"sdaro(remove)"@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>btw, I'm planning to get the oil changed again (next week) at a local
>mechanic shop while i'm on site. I'm going to ensure the the oil filter
>is replaced and I doubt I'd encounter the same situation described
>above. The most frustrating thing about this entire situation is that
>I've been giving the bastard mobil-1 to use (I wonder what they've been
>doing with in...).
>


I read where the new supersyn Mobil 1 is darker than the previous
versions. This might explain why the oil is darker than it used to
be.

Here is the statement:

http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/mobil1.htm

The new ingredient gives Mobil 1 a slightly darker color than before,
which improves visibility when reading a dipstick. The new additive
also allows Mobil 1 to pass a much wider battery of industry oil
standards, including ILSAC GF-3, American Petroleum Institute's
SL/SH/CF specifications, European ACEA standards and Japanese
valvetrain requirements.

-
--
Curtis Newton
cnewton@remove-me.akaMail.com
http://surf.to/cnewton
<delete remove-me. to respond to email>
ICQ: 4899169

Caliban wrote:

> "pars" <"sdaro(remove)"@hotmail.com> wrote
> > My car has 145,000km and I've been getting the oil changed religiously
> > at every 5000km. Anyways, today I took it at the Honda dealership for an
> > oil change, drove it home and checked the oil. The oil in the engine was
> > obviously fresh from the resent change, but it was already dirty.
>
> "fresh... but... dirty"? This is kind of a confusing statement. Do you have
> a lot of experience checking the oil appearance before and after an oil
> change? I just want to check this...

When looking at the oil with the naked eye, it was similar in color and texture
to the the oil in a fresh bottle of mobil-1. However, it was blacken with
obvious sediments floating in the oil. This was apparent when whipping the oil
onto a white paper towel. .I also did a back-to-back comparison by dipping the
oil-stick into a fresh bottle of mobil-1 and comparing it with the stuff in the
engine. The difference was very noticeable.

>
> > I took
> > the car back to the dealership and inquired about the problem and the
> > service rep told me it was because my engine was old. And, I needed to
> > have my engine flushed. I've had many cars in the past and have yet to
> > encounter a situation in which the oil would gets fowled up over a 15km
> > drive. The Honda Rep acted as if its was common knowledge that an older
> > car's oil would be dirty after an oil change. Can anyone support her
> > conclusion???
>
> I've had experience with oil changes in two cars having over 115k kilometers
> on them, and I have never observed dirty-looking oil after driving only a
> short distance.

I've driven 7 cars (since 1986) and have done all the maintenance work for my
dad's car when I was younger. I've also never noticed the oil looking dirty
immediately after an oil change.

> (I always change the oil filter, too, on these oil changes,
> BTW.) The oil always looks pretty golden for at least hundreds of miles;
> probably over a thousand or even two thousand (depending on the quality of
> the filter I used?). My cars have never had an "engine flush." Does she mean
> an injector cleaning? Or use of a fuel additive that allegedly cleans the
> engine's cylinders and valves?

I assumed an oil flush since the problem isn't with the fuel system (perhaps I
should have clarified it). BTW, the stuff that Honda uses is more golden in
color (my wife has the same model car but she uses the Honda oil) while the
mobil-1 seems a little more transparent and brownish in comparisons.

>
>
> I did replace my positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) valve recently, and
> this seems to have resulted in cleaner oil for a longer time. It's a roughly
> $20 or under part and takes under ten minutes for an experienced technician
> to change out. Have you had this replaced yet? If not, I'd say you're due.

Sounds like good advice since I've never had it changed. However, I doubt it
caused the problem describe above, unless the PCV can retain a great deal of
dirt that can be blown back into the engine.


> I
> now plan to change mine out around every 100k kilometers; maybe more often.
>
> > btw, I'm planning to get the oil changed again (next week) at a local
> > mechanic shop while i'm on site.
>
> Have them give the old oil and old filter back to you. Compare it to some
> new oil of the same brand. Maybe this shop would be willing to break open
> the old filter and give their opinion on whether it's fairly new.

Keeping or braking-open the old oil-filter sounds like a good Idea. I'll mention
it to the mechanic.

>
>
> > I'm going to ensure the the oil filter
> > is replaced and I doubt I'd encounter the same situation described
> > above. The most frustrating thing about this entire situation is that
> > I've been giving the bastard mobil-1 to use (I wonder what they've been
> > doing with in...).
>
> I have only used non-synthetic oils in my Honda, so I can't comment on
> Mobil-1. (Been thinking about switching, though. Need to research it.)

I highly recommend it. I still hve one of the fastest stock 98 Hatch on the
road, even after 145,000km of abuse. Last week, I got a 650km from a tank of gas
from combined city and highway (usually I get less mileage, but I was taking it
easy because of the black-out).


>
>
> Let the group know what happens... :-)

will do.

thx,
Pars
98 DX Hatch

"pars" <"sdaro(remove)"@hotmail.com> wrote
[Other latest comments from pars about comparing the oil in the car with new
oil noted, along with other poster's comment about Mobil-1 being darker.]
> > I did replace my positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) valve recently,
and
> > this seems to have resulted in cleaner oil for a longer time. It's a
roughly
> > $20 or under part and takes under ten minutes for an experienced
technician
> > to change out. Have you had this replaced yet? If not, I'd say you're
due.
>
> Sounds like good advice since I've never had it changed. However, I doubt
it
> caused the problem describe above, unless the PCV can retain a great deal
of
> dirt that can be blown back into the engine.

Yes, it can. The PCV valve is a check valve. It permits the passage of
crankcase fumes to the engine's air inlet, so any uncombusted fuel in the
fumes may go through the combustion process again. It improves the engine
efficiency, among other things.

My original PCV valve was over 200k kilometers old and was fully of a waxy,
black, buildup. I am sure it wasn't working as designed. (Some people have
posted ways to check it here in the past, but after reading up on it, it was
a no-brainer to me to just replace the thing, given its age.) My fuel
mileage improved a lot after I replaced it. I check my oil about once a
week, and I think my oil is staying cleaner longer, too.

I am a little doubtful it can dirty up your oil so quickly. But maybe so.

snip
> > I have only used non-synthetic oils in my Honda, so I can't comment on
> > Mobil-1. (Been thinking about switching, though. Need to research it.)
>
> I highly recommend it. I still hve one of the fastest stock 98 Hatch on
the
> road, even after 145,000km of abuse. Last week, I got a 650km from a tank
of gas
> from combined city and highway (usually I get less mileage, but I was
taking it
> easy because of the black-out).

Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a closer look before my next oil change.

Curtis Newton wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 05:37:31 -0400, pars <"sdaro(remove)"@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >btw, I'm planning to get the oil changed again (next week) at a local
> >mechanic shop while i'm on site. I'm going to ensure the the oil filter
> >is replaced and I doubt I'd encounter the same situation described
> >above. The most frustrating thing about this entire situation is that
> >I've been giving the bastard mobil-1 to use (I wonder what they've been
> >doing with in...).
> >
>
> I read where the new supersyn Mobil 1 is darker than the previous
> versions. This might explain why the oil is darker than it used to
> be.

Interesting. But, the dirt was obvious after wiping it onto a white paper
towel.
BTW, I have some doubts about this new Mobel-1..but I guess I don't have a
choice. My stash of the old stuff recently ran out.

Pars
98 Hatch

>
>
> Here is the statement:
>
> http://members.aol.com/carleyware/library/mobil1.htm
>
> The new ingredient gives Mobil 1 a slightly darker color than before,
> which improves visibility when reading a dipstick. The new additive
> also allows Mobil 1 to pass a much wider battery of industry oil
> standards, including ILSAC GF-3, American Petroleum Institute's
> SL/SH/CF specifications, European ACEA standards and Japanese
> valvetrain requirements.
>
> -
> --
> Curtis Newton
> cnewton@remove-me.akaMail.com
> http://surf.to/cnewton
> <delete remove-me. to respond to email>
> ICQ: 4899169

pars wrote:

> Caliban wrote:
>
>>"pars" <"sdaro(remove)"@hotmail.com> wrote
>>
>>>My car has 145,000km and I've been getting the oil changed religiously
>>>at every 5000km. Anyways, today I took it at the Honda dealership for an
>>>oil change, drove it home and checked the oil. The oil in the engine was
>>>obviously fresh from the resent change, but it was already dirty.
>>
>>"fresh... but... dirty"? This is kind of a confusing statement. Do you have
>>a lot of experience checking the oil appearance before and after an oil
>>change? I just want to check this...
>
> When looking at the oil with the naked eye, it was similar in color and texture
> to the the oil in a fresh bottle of mobil-1. However, it was blacken with
> obvious sediments floating in the oil. This was apparent when whipping the oil
> onto a white paper towel. .I also did a back-to-back comparison by dipping the
> oil-stick into a fresh bottle of mobil-1 and comparing it with the stuff in the
> engine. The difference was very noticeable.

Be sure to "whip it good".

pars <"sdaro(remove)"@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3F48D609.6F37FCE3@hotmail.com>...
> > > I took
> > > the car back to the dealership and inquired about the problem and the
> > > service rep told me it was because my engine was old. And, I needed to
> > > have my engine flushed. I've had many cars in the past and have yet to
> > > encounter a situation in which the oil would gets fowled up over a 15km
> > > drive. The Honda Rep acted as if its was common knowledge that an older
> > > car's oil would be dirty after an oil change. Can anyone support her
> > > conclusion???

From what I know, and "engine flush" is where they dump some kind of
cleaner into your engine and let it idle for a minutes prior to
changing the oil. This is supposed to loosen up any buildup inside
your engine and the contaminants will come out when they change your
oil. That's what they say, anyway. I've had it done once in the life
of my car (200K+ km), and Walmart charges $10 on top of the regular
oil change to do this. For some odd reason, they claim they do not
sell this "engine flush" to the general public and can only have it
done at the garage. (?)

That being said, I would agree with the diagnosis that you need an
engine flush, as there is likely some buildup inside your engine and
some of the debris broke free after changing the oil and that is the
"dirt" you see in the fresh oil...

Then again, I never claimed to be a certified mechanic, so what do I
know... ;-)

> Sounds like good advice since I've never had it changed. However, I doubt it
> caused the problem describe above, unless the PCV can retain a great deal of
> dirt that can be blown back into the engine.

Definitely change the PCV if you never have before. It's a very cheap
part, particularly if you don't go OEM. I actually just bought a Fram
PCV valve for my Integra at Walmart - $3.97CND!.... and that was one
of the more *expensive* ones. 30 seconds to install.

The easiest way to check if the PCV is still good is to unplug it and
give it a shake - you should hear the bearing inside rattle. If it
doesn't, then it's all gummed up and not doing it's job. But again,
after 100K+, I think it's worth changing for $4 whether it rattles or
not.

> I highly recommend it. I still hve one of the fastest stock 98 Hatch on the
> road, even after 145,000km of abuse.

I find this statement amusing. Which is it - is it stock or is the
"fastest 98 Hatch"? If it truly were *stock*, would it not stand to
reason that all "98 Hatches" (of same engine/trim, obviously) would be
equal?


Kevin
96 Integra

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 05:37:31 -0400, pars <"sdaro(remove)"@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>My car has 145,000km and I've been getting the oil changed religiously
>at every 5000km. Anyways, today I took it at the Honda dealership for an
>oil change, drove it home and checked the oil. The oil in the engine was
>obviously fresh from the resent change, but it was already dirty. I took
>the car back to the dealership and inquired about the problem and the
>service rep told me it was because my engine was old. And, I needed to
>have my engine flushed. I've had many cars in the past and have yet to
>encounter a situation in which the oil would gets fowled up over a 15km
>drive. The Honda Rep acted as if its was common knowledge that an older
>car's oil would be dirty after an oil change. Can anyone support her
>conclusion???

IME, on old engines it's normal for the fresh oil to take a slightly darker
cast more quickly than a newer engine but I can't say I've seen any
difference between say, a 60K engine and 100K engine in that respect - both
take a slightly darker cast quickly, since a drain can never drain all the
engine in the block passages. Check the dry fill for a stripped down
engine vs. an oil change with filter to see how much gets left behind.

Did you check if they did a proper drain through the drain hole? Some
quick places - dunno about dealers - use the suction tube down the dipstick
hole to do the "drain" and it will not get all the old stuff out. You
*did* check your engine serial number" is correct?:-)

Have you checked the inside of the oil filler cap for residue?... also have
a peek down inside the hole for any possible accumulated crud. What air
filter are you using? Check it for holes.

>btw, I'm planning to get the oil changed again (next week) at a local
>mechanic shop while i'm on site. I'm going to ensure the the oil filter
>is replaced and I doubt I'd encounter the same situation described
>above. The most frustrating thing about this entire situation is that
>I've been giving the bastard mobil-1 to use (I wonder what they've been
>doing with in...).

You could always get an oil analysis done to be sure - save a sample of the
drain of what the dealer put in to have it checked. The PCV valve change
others have suggested sounds like a good idea to me.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

Kevin Sargent wrote:

> pars <"sdaro(remove)"@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3F48D609.6F37FCE3@hotmail.com>...
> > > > I took
> > > > the car back to the dealership and inquired about the problem and the
> > > > service rep told me it was because my engine was old. And, I needed to
> > > > have my engine flushed. I've had many cars in the past and have yet to
> > > > encounter a situation in which the oil would gets fowled up over a 15km
> > > > drive. The Honda Rep acted as if its was common knowledge that an older
> > > > car's oil would be dirty after an oil change. Can anyone support her
> > > > conclusion???
>
> From what I know, and "engine flush" is where they dump some kind of
> cleaner into your engine and let it idle for a minutes prior to
> changing the oil. This is supposed to loosen up any buildup inside
> your engine and the contaminants will come out when they change your
> oil. That's what they say, anyway. I've had it done once in the life
> of my car (200K+ km), and Walmart charges $10 on top of the regular
> oil change to do this. For some odd reason, they claim they do not
> sell this "engine flush" to the general public and can only have it
> done at the garage. (?)
>
> That being said, I would agree with the diagnosis that you need an
> engine flush, as there is likely some buildup inside your engine and
> some of the debris broke free after changing the oil and that is the
> "dirt" you see in the fresh oil...

True, there's definitely too much "dirt" in my engine. However, the reason for all the dirt
build-up is suspect since I've been using mobel-1 since the car was new and it's always been
dealer maintained. The flush sounds like a good idea, but i'm somewhat reluctant to put
anything other then mobel-1 into my engine. I'm probably going to increase the oil change
intervals and hope that'll clear up the problem.

Pars

>
>
> Then again, I never claimed to be a certified mechanic, so what do I
> know... ;-)
>
> > Sounds like good advice since I've never had it changed. However, I doubt it
> > caused the problem describe above, unless the PCV can retain a great deal of
> > dirt that can be blown back into the engine.
>
> Definitely change the PCV if you never have before. It's a very cheap
> part, particularly if you don't go OEM. I actually just bought a Fram
> PCV valve for my Integra at Walmart - $3.97CND!.... and that was one
> of the more *expensive* ones. 30 seconds to install.
>
> The easiest way to check if the PCV is still good is to unplug it and
> give it a shake - you should hear the bearing inside rattle. If it
> doesn't, then it's all gummed up and not doing it's job. But again,
> after 100K+, I think it's worth changing for $4 whether it rattles or
> not.
>
> > I highly recommend it. I still hve one of the fastest stock 98 Hatch on the
> > road, even after 145,000km of abuse.
>
> I find this statement amusing. Which is it - is it stock or is the
> "fastest 98 Hatch"? If it truly were *stock*, would it not stand to
> reason that all "98 Hatches" (of same engine/trim, obviously) would be
> equal?
>
> Kevin
> 96 Integra