Honda Car Forum

"lastnn30" <lastnn30@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<g3XTa.69294$zwL.49489@news04.bloor.is.net.ca ble.rogers.com>...
> Question, I have Honda Civic 2001 (47500km) I have never tested the old of
> the transition (5 speed transmission). Now when I try to change the shift
> from lets say 1 to 2 or 3 to 4 etc I feel it is not smooth. Do you think I
> should do something? Do you think the oil need to be changed/add ? when the
> transmission oil should be change/add usually. Thanks.

Change the transmission oil. The safe choice is the Honda MTF but many
people (myself included) use Red Line MTL. 10W30 motor oil was spec'd
for years but it was never a good choice to lubricate a syncromesh
transmission.

If your dealership doesn't have the Honda MTF, you can get it at
www.manhonda.com or other on-line retailers.

--- Bror Jace

Bror Jace wrote:
>
> "lastnn30" <lastnn30@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<g3XTa.69294$zwL.49489@news04.bloor.is.net.ca ble.rogers.com>...
> > Question, I have Honda Civic 2001 (47500km) I have never tested the old of
> > the transition (5 speed transmission). Now when I try to change the shift
> > from lets say 1 to 2 or 3 to 4 etc I feel it is not smooth. Do you think I
> > should do something? Do you think the oil need to be changed/add ? when the
> > transmission oil should be change/add usually. Thanks.
>
> Change the transmission oil. The safe choice is the Honda MTF but many
> people (myself included) use Red Line MTL. 10W30 motor oil was spec'd
> for years but it was never a good choice to lubricate a syncromesh
> transmission.
>
> If your dealership doesn't have the Honda MTF, you can get it at
> www.manhonda.com or other on-line retailers.
>
> --- Bror Jace



Once you use RedLine, you'll never go back to anything else. Been
running the stuff in my old cars for years...


--
Regards,

JT (Residing in Austin, Texas)


1931 Studebaker President State Coupe (Q4) - Big Big Project
1955 Studebaker President State Coupe
1955 Studebaker President State Sedan
1956 Studebaker Power Hawk - Long Time Fun Car - (Will be burial
container)
1963 Studebaker Lark Custom 4 Door Sedan
1964 Studebaker Champ P/U T-6 Long Bed
1965 Honda Dream 305
1989 Honda CRX
1956 Leica M2

I'll never use Redline MTL in a Honda tranny again. It eats away at the
plastic bearing cage for the input shaft bearing.

http://www.codyscafe.com/~mrbone/pic...goodbadISB.jpg

--
Charles Tague
93 Honda Civic DX HB
1.6L SOHC VTEC 14.85 @ 89 mph,1.98 60 ft.
With ZEX 85 hp ZEX 13.09 @ 103 mph, 1.81 60ft.
86 Pontiac Trans Am
225/50/15 GForce Drag Radials
305 peanut cammed 15.29 @ 88 mph
http://home.cinci.rr.com/mistab0ne/
"JETman" <jetassoc@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3F21E70D.62EBCA56@worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Bror Jace wrote:
> >
> > "lastnn30" <lastnn30@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<g3XTa.69294$zwL.49489@news04.bloor.is.net.ca ble.rogers.com>...
> > > Question, I have Honda Civic 2001 (47500km) I have never tested the
old of
> > > the transition (5 speed transmission). Now when I try to change the
shift
> > > from lets say 1 to 2 or 3 to 4 etc I feel it is not smooth. Do you
think I
> > > should do something? Do you think the oil need to be changed/add ?
when the
> > > transmission oil should be change/add usually. Thanks.
> >
> > Change the transmission oil. The safe choice is the Honda MTF but many
> > people (myself included) use Red Line MTL. 10W30 motor oil was spec'd
> > for years but it was never a good choice to lubricate a syncromesh
> > transmission.
> >
> > If your dealership doesn't have the Honda MTF, you can get it at
> > www.manhonda.com or other on-line retailers.
> >
> > --- Bror Jace
>
>
>
> Once you use RedLine, you'll never go back to anything else. Been
> running the stuff in my old cars for years...
>
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> JT (Residing in Austin, Texas)
>
>
> 1931 Studebaker President State Coupe (Q4) - Big Big Project
> 1955 Studebaker President State Coupe
> 1955 Studebaker President State Sedan
> 1956 Studebaker Power Hawk - Long Time Fun Car - (Will be burial
> container)
> 1963 Studebaker Lark Custom 4 Door Sedan
> 1964 Studebaker Champ P/U T-6 Long Bed
> 1965 Honda Dream 305
> 1989 Honda CRX
> 1956 Leica M2

"Mista Bone" <MistaB0ne@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message news:<UrmUa.6774$dO2.226@fe2.columbus.rr.com>...
> I'll never use Redline MTL in a Honda tranny again. It eats away at the
> plastic bearing cage for the input shaft bearing.
>
> http://www.codyscafe.com/~mrbone/pic...goodbadISB.jpg

Bone, is that a shot of that RSX tranny you've posted before?

I know you've never been a fan of the Red Line gear oils but I've used
them with great results in a '90 Integra and my '95 Civic Coupe.
Combined, those two cars racked up 220,000 miles with me as a driver
and another 100,000+ with others at the wheel. Great shifting, no
problems.

If you're right about the MTL eating a plastic seal, that's pretty sad
for Honda. They should know better than to put such a finicky seal in
their tranny when so many people use the Red Line synchromesh fluids.
They've been around for well over a decade.

But if I had an RSX, I'd rather be safe than sorry and use the
not-particularly-impressive Honda MTF. Oh well.

--- Bror Jace

For the best in oil & lubrication discussion try:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi

On 27 Jul 2003 18:21:54 -0700, brorjace@hotmail.com (Bror Jace) wrote:

>"Mista Bone" <MistaB0ne@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message news:<UrmUa.6774$dO2.226@fe2.columbus.rr.com>...
>> I'll never use Redline MTL in a Honda tranny again. It eats away at the
>> plastic bearing cage for the input shaft bearing.
>>
>> http://www.codyscafe.com/~mrbone/pic...goodbadISB.jpg
>
>Bone, is that a shot of that RSX tranny you've posted before?
>
>I know you've never been a fan of the Red Line gear oils but I've used
>them with great results in a '90 Integra and my '95 Civic Coupe.
>Combined, those two cars racked up 220,000 miles with me as a driver
>and another 100,000+ with others at the wheel. Great shifting, no
>problems.
>
>If you're right about the MTL eating a plastic seal, that's pretty sad
>for Honda. They should know better than to put such a finicky seal in
>their tranny when so many people use the Red Line synchromesh fluids.
>They've been around for well over a decade.

It's not the seal that got destroyed - it's the bearing cage and it wasn't
clear if it suffered due to solvency of the plastic in the oil or if it got
worn away by abrasion. It's completely gone though - all eight balls are
jammed against each other in the bad bearing.

>But if I had an RSX, I'd rather be safe than sorry and use the
>not-particularly-impressive Honda MTF. Oh well.

The Honda MTF works fine for me.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com (George Macdonald) wrote in message news:<3f24c261.75946917@news.tellurian.com>...

> It's not the seal that got destroyed - it's the bearing cage and it wasn't
> clear if it suffered due to solvency of the plastic in the oil or if it got
> worn away by abrasion. It's completely gone though - all eight balls are
> jammed against each other in the bad bearing.

Was there a big difference between the 5th and 6th generation Civic
5-speeds? My '95 Coupe went 132,000 miles (122,000 miles on MTL)
without a single tranny-related problem. If solvency WAS an issue, it
surely would have reared its ugly head in my car as I ran it much,
much longer.

> The Honda MTF works fine for me.

I've never tried the stuff. A virgin oil analysis on it shows it to be
a fairly ordinary-looking fluid. No special anti-wear (moly,
borate-esters, etc ...) just a good dose of what looks like ZDDP ...
in quantities motor oils used to have the stuff.

I just know that MTL (70W80) was a vast improvement over the factory
fill in both my '90 Integra as well as the '95 Civic. Who knows what
they put in the trannies back then at the factory?

What I like most about the Red Line fluids is their cold-shift
capabilities. Dead-of-winter graunch is greatly eliminated. In fact, I
have to get rid of the crappy factory gear oil in my Sentra Spec-V's
6-speed before this coming winter. The tranny is full of graunch at
any temp under 40F until it's thoroughly warm. I have to shift very s
l o w l y and c a r e f u l l y until the car is well warmed up to
keep from grinding. I figure MT-90 (75W90) will be a significant
improvement ... and it's the most popular fluid with other Spec
drivers.

--- Bror Jace
(Saratoga, NY)

On 28 Jul 2003 19:46:29 -0700, brorjace@hotmail.com (Bror Jace) wrote:

>fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com (George Macdonald) wrote in message news:<3f24c261.75946917@news.tellurian.com>...
>
>> It's not the seal that got destroyed - it's the bearing cage and it wasn't
>> clear if it suffered due to solvency of the plastic in the oil or if it got
>> worn away by abrasion. It's completely gone though - all eight balls are
>> jammed against each other in the bad bearing.
>
>Was there a big difference between the 5th and 6th generation Civic
>5-speeds? My '95 Coupe went 132,000 miles (122,000 miles on MTL)
>without a single tranny-related problem. If solvency WAS an issue, it
>surely would have reared its ugly head in my car as I ran it much,
>much longer.

I didn't say it was solvency. Even if it was then I'd indict RedLine
before Hionda on the subject of testing and warnings... given your later
remarks about Honda MTF.

>> The Honda MTF works fine for me.
>
>I've never tried the stuff. A virgin oil analysis on it shows it to be
>a fairly ordinary-looking fluid. No special anti-wear (moly,
>borate-esters, etc ...) just a good dose of what looks like ZDDP ...
>in quantities motor oils used to have the stuff.

I'm not sure how a lubricant/fluid arrives at being characterized as
"ordinary-looking"... nor what the "analysis" actually examined.
Borate-esters would appear to be something I would not expect to find in
Honda MTF, given that they are currently being test marketed by the
additive mfrs - maybe something I'd want nothing to do with until that
testing is done. Obviously ZDDP works well and has for years and of
course, there's no catalytic converter in a gear box - in fact if ZDDP had
not been blacklisted by the auto mfrs we'd probably still be using it in
our engines and MoDTC would be an obscure chemical.

The Honda Australia site used to show the "Honda MTF" with the mention that
it was a 75W/80 API gear lubricant - not even sure if it'd be the same
stuff - but it was not rated as EP so I'd expect a modest (non-extreme)
friction modifier content.

>I just know that MTL (70W80) was a vast improvement over the factory
>fill in both my '90 Integra as well as the '95 Civic. Who knows what
>they put in the trannies back then at the factory?
>
>What I like most about the Red Line fluids is their cold-shift
>capabilities. Dead-of-winter graunch is greatly eliminated. In fact, I
>have to get rid of the crappy factory gear oil in my Sentra Spec-V's
>6-speed before this coming winter. The tranny is full of graunch at
>any temp under 40F until it's thoroughly warm. I have to shift very s
>l o w l y and c a r e f u l l y until the car is well warmed up to
>keep from grinding. I figure MT-90 (75W90) will be a significant
>improvement ... and it's the most popular fluid with other Spec
>drivers.

Yes with Honda MTF, you *do* have to shift gently in low temps - not for
long though - but I expect that Honda is quite sure that it is not
incompatible with the metallurgy of their gearbox components.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

George Macdonald wrote:


> Yes with Honda MTF, you *do* have to shift gently in low temps - not for
> long though - but I expect that Honda is quite sure that it is not
> incompatible with the metallurgy of their gearbox components.
>

Umm, I think you meant "plasticlurgy"

The 1988-2000 Civic SOHC tranny all use the same input shaft bearings. I
myself have never had a "ISB" bearing failure, but I usually have the tranny
out every 15k-20K miles for replacing 1-2 shifter fork, yes I drive
ABUSIVE!!!!!

The 1996-2000 trannys use a different (steel) shifter fork design that
doesn't break like the 1988-1995 shifter forks.

They ARE NOT interchangeable.

Redline MTL leaves behind red GLOBS unless flushed with dino oil. The tranny
in the link was ran with dino oil for 3,000 miles just to see if the problem
was from Redline MTL, but it was too late.

I've ran Redline MTL for 12k miles. The cold shifting IMPROVEMENT was nice.

BTW NEVER EVER use synthetic motor oil in a Honda tranny, too slick.

Bror Jace, I'm seeing others that use the MT-90 doing ok, no problems.

--
Charles Tague
93 Honda Civic DX HB
1.6L SOHC VTEC 14.85 @ 89 mph,1.98 60 ft.
With ZEX 85 hp ZEX 13.09 @ 103 mph, 1.81 60ft.
86 Pontiac Trans Am
225/50/15 GForce Drag Radials
305 peanut cammed 15.29 @ 88 mph
http://home.cinci.rr.com/mistab0ne/
"Bror Jace" <brorjace@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d1373663.0307281846.218aa7a6@posting.google.c om...
> fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com (George Macdonald) wrote in message
news:<3f24c261.75946917@news.tellurian.com>...
>
> > It's not the seal that got destroyed - it's the bearing cage and it
wasn't
> > clear if it suffered due to solvency of the plastic in the oil or if it
got
> > worn away by abrasion. It's completely gone though - all eight balls
are
> > jammed against each other in the bad bearing.
>
> Was there a big difference between the 5th and 6th generation Civic
> 5-speeds? My '95 Coupe went 132,000 miles (122,000 miles on MTL)
> without a single tranny-related problem. If solvency WAS an issue, it
> surely would have reared its ugly head in my car as I ran it much,
> much longer.
>
> > The Honda MTF works fine for me.
>
> I've never tried the stuff. A virgin oil analysis on it shows it to be
> a fairly ordinary-looking fluid. No special anti-wear (moly,
> borate-esters, etc ...) just a good dose of what looks like ZDDP ...
> in quantities motor oils used to have the stuff.
>
> I just know that MTL (70W80) was a vast improvement over the factory
> fill in both my '90 Integra as well as the '95 Civic. Who knows what
> they put in the trannies back then at the factory?
>
> What I like most about the Red Line fluids is their cold-shift
> capabilities. Dead-of-winter graunch is greatly eliminated. In fact, I
> have to get rid of the crappy factory gear oil in my Sentra Spec-V's
> 6-speed before this coming winter. The tranny is full of graunch at
> any temp under 40F until it's thoroughly warm. I have to shift very s
> l o w l y and c a r e f u l l y until the car is well warmed up to
> keep from grinding. I figure MT-90 (75W90) will be a significant
> improvement ... and it's the most popular fluid with other Spec
> drivers.
>
> --- Bror Jace
> (Saratoga, NY)

On 29 Jul 2003 19:32:15 -0700, brorjace@hotmail.com (Bror Jace) wrote:

>fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com (George Macdonald) wrote in message news:<3f25fbe5.11848392@news.tellurian.com>...
>
>If solvency WAS an issue, it
>> >surely would have reared its ugly head in my car as I ran it much,
>> >much longer.
>>
>> I didn't say it was solvency. Even if it was then I'd indict RedLine
>> before Honda on the subject of testing and warnings... given your later
>> remarks about Honda MTF.
>
>I know. That bit was in response to some things Mista Bone had posted
>earlier. Just my thoughts that it *couldn't* be a solvency problem ...
>but not necessarily some other problem.

Whatever it is, it *is* extreme!

>> >I've never tried (Honda MTF). A virgin oil analysis on it shows it to be
>> >a fairly ordinary-looking fluid. No special anti-wear (moly,
>> >borate-esters, etc ...) just a good dose of what looks like ZDDP ...
>> >in quantities motor oils used to have the stuff.
>>
>> I'm not sure how a lubricant/fluid arrives at being characterized as
>> "ordinary-looking"... nor what the "analysis" actually examined.
>
>Here's a link:
>
>http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=000100#000000
>
>There's also a used sample of this stuff tested on that site:
>
>http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=000562#000000

0% water seems awfully suspicious to me in that UOA. Other than that the
stuff works.

>> Borate-esters would appear to be something I would not expect to find in
>> Honda MTF, given that they are currently being test marketed by the
>> additive mfrs - maybe something I'd want nothing to do with until that
>> testing is done.
>
>Well, they're quickly going mainstream ... especially in gear oils,
>oils for motorcycles which do not tolerate moly and even many motor
>oils like Pennzoil, Chevron Supreme, Mobil 1 SuperSyn, etc ... Both
>MTL and I believe MT-90 have borate esters in them.

Seems a bit early to be going mainstream to me - Vanderbilt still shows it
in test marketing... to lube mfrs. Given the variation in bearing
materials between various auto mfrs' engines I'd expect a more cautious
approach by the lube mfrs. So has Mobil1 switched from MoDTC to
borate-ester.... already?... or is it used as an additional supplement?
All this chopping and changing makes me dizzy... and wary.

>Obviously ZDDP works well and has for years and of
>> course, there's no catalytic converter in a gear box - in fact if ZDDP had
>> not been blacklisted by the auto mfrs we'd probably still be using it in
>> our engines and MoDTC would be an obscure chemical.
>
>True, but MoDTC is actually working pretty well as a barrier anti-wear
>... producing some incredibly low wear numbers in UOAs.

Let's hope there are no surprises down the road. Vanderbilt still warns
about the diesels and copper "corrosion".

>> >What I like most about the Red Line fluids is their cold-shift
>> >capabilities. Dead-of-winter graunch is greatly eliminated.
>
>> Yes with Honda MTF, you *do* have to shift gently in low temps - not for
>> long though - but I expect that Honda is quite sure that it is not
>> incompatible with the metallurgy of their gearbox components.
>
>** Yeah, Plasticurgy. >;^) I guess it's a trade off. In MolaKule's
>Nissan truck transmission wear seemed to be greatly improved by
>switching from the Amsoil he was using to one of the Red Line
>synchromesh fluids. There are UOAs of his tranny oil on the same site
>as well. Don't think he ever tried MTF in his Nissan.

In the case of the cage, I assumed that it was plastic - I guess from what
we could see in the .JPG, it didn't look like metal. My point was though,
that metallurgy *is* important in the choice of lube for a gearbox. As an
example, AFAIK there are still mfrs using API EP gear oils (VW ?) and they
would not work in any situation where there was any red metal. Before
switching to some new, latest, whiz-bang additive, I'd want to be sure that
there are no such similar incompatibilities - IOW unless I heard from
Honda, Nissan, Toyota et.al. that "yes we have tested this and it is
approved", I'd tend to stick with what I know has worked.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??