Honda Car Forum

Bror Jace wrote:
>
> fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com (George Macdonald) wrote in message news:<3f25fbe5.11848392@news.tellurian.com>...
>
> If solvency WAS an issue, it
> > >surely would have reared its ugly head in my car as I ran it much,
> > >much longer.
> >
> > I didn't say it was solvency. Even if it was then I'd indict RedLine
> > before Honda on the subject of testing and warnings... given your later
> > remarks about Honda MTF.
>
> I know. That bit was in response to some things Mista Bone had posted
> earlier. Just my thoughts that it *couldn't* be a solvency problem ...
> but not necessarily some other problem.
>


I checked with RedLine tech support and they simply stated that if their
product routinely destroyed plastic parts, they wouldn't have a market...

Me thinks something else is responsible here...



> > >I've never tried (Honda MTF). A virgin oil analysis on it shows it to be
> > >a fairly ordinary-looking fluid. No special anti-wear (moly,
> > >borate-esters, etc ...) just a good dose of what looks like ZDDP ...
> > >in quantities motor oils used to have the stuff.
> >
> > I'm not sure how a lubricant/fluid arrives at being characterized as
> > "ordinary-looking"... nor what the "analysis" actually examined.
>
> Here's a link:
>
> http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=000100#000000
>
> There's also a used sample of this stuff tested on that site:
>
> http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=000562#000000
>
> > Borate-esters would appear to be something I would not expect to find in
> > Honda MTF, given that they are currently being test marketed by the
> > additive mfrs - maybe something I'd want nothing to do with until that
> > testing is done.
>
> Well, they're quickly going mainstream ... especially in gear oils,
> oils for motorcycles which do not tolerate moly and even many motor
> oils like Pennzoil, Chevron Supreme, Mobil 1 SuperSyn, etc ... Both
> MTL and I believe MT-90 have borate esters in them.
>
> Obviously ZDDP works well and has for years and of
> > course, there's no catalytic converter in a gear box - in fact if ZDDP had
> > not been blacklisted by the auto mfrs we'd probably still be using it in
> > our engines and MoDTC would be an obscure chemical.
>
> True, but MoDTC is actually working pretty well as a barrier anti-wear
> ... producing some incredibly low wear numbers in UOAs.
>
> > The Honda Australia site used to show the "Honda MTF" with the mention that
> > it was a 75W/80 API gear lubricant - not even sure if it'd be the same
> > stuff - but it was not rated as EP so I'd expect a modest (non-extreme)
> > friction modifier content.
>
> Sounds like the same stuff ... and that weight sounds about right as
> well ... just a tad thicker at colder temps than MTL.
>
> > >What I like most about the Red Line fluids is their cold-shift
> > >capabilities. Dead-of-winter graunch is greatly eliminated.
>
> > Yes with Honda MTF, you *do* have to shift gently in low temps - not for
> > long though - but I expect that Honda is quite sure that it is not
> > incompatible with the metallurgy of their gearbox components.
>
> ** Yeah, Plasticurgy. >;^) I guess it's a trade off. In MolaKule's
> Nissan truck transmission wear seemed to be greatly improved by
> switching from the Amsoil he was using to one of the Red Line
> synchromesh fluids. There are UOAs of his tranny oil on the same site
> as well. Don't think he ever tried MTF in his Nissan.
>
> ** Bror Jace

--
Regards,

JT (Residing in Austin, Texas)

Just Tooling Down The Internet Superhighway With my G4.......

fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com (George Macdonald) wrote in message news:<3f279f7f.3312425@news.tellurian.com>...

> >Here's a link:
> >
> >http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=000100#000000
> >
> >There's also a used sample of this stuff tested on that site:
> >
> >http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=000562#000000
>
> 0% water seems awfully suspicious to me in that UOA. Other than that the
> stuff works.

Actually, of all the UOAs I've seen, rarely is water a problem. I
don't know why ... better ventilation? The fact that most samples are
taken at high (operating) temperature?

> >> Borate-esters would appear to be something I would not expect to find in
> >> Honda MTF

> >Well, they're quickly going mainstream ... especially in gear oils,
> >oils for motorcycles which do not tolerate moly and even many motor
> >oils like Pennzoil, Chevron Supreme, Mobil 1 SuperSyn, etc ... Both
> >MTL and I believe MT-90 have borate esters in them.
>
> Seems a bit early to be going mainstream to me - Vanderbilt still shows it
> in test marketing... to lube mfrs. Given the variation in bearing
> materials between various auto mfrs' engines I'd expect a more cautious
> approach by the lube mfrs. So has Mobil1 switched from MoDTC to
> borate-ester.... already?... or is it used as an additional supplement?
> All this chopping and changing makes me dizzy... and wary.

If you look at the site, you'll see that Mobil 1 has boron showing in
their analysis ... as well as Pennzoil (all multi-vis oils), the
latest Chevron Supreme, many motorcycle oils, Motorcraft 15W40, etc
....

You might weant to check out the VOA (virgin oil analysis) section of
that forum.

The boron (assuming borate esters of some sort) are used in
conjunction with MotDC, not as a replacement.

> Let's hope there are no surprises down the road. Vanderbilt still warns
> about the diesels and copper "corrosion".

So does Cummins ... and the oil Cummins recommends for their diesels
is Valvoline Blue 15W40 ... which, as it so happens, contains MoDTC.
One of the forum members had to point this out to them (Duh!!) and
then they backtracked and said it was really moly disulphide which
they recommend users avoid.

And people wonder why owners second-guess their factory
recommendations?

My point was though,
> that metallurgy *is* important in the choice of lube for a gearbox. As an
> example, AFAIK there are still mfrs using API EP gear oils (VW ?) and they
> would not work in any situation where there was any red metal. Before
> switching to some new, latest, whiz-bang additive, I'd want to be sure that
> there are no such similar incompatibilities - IOW unless I heard from
> Honda, Nissan, Toyota et.al. that "yes we have tested this and it is
> approved", I'd tend to stick with what I know has worked.

Safe bet.

--- Bror Jace

fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com (George Macdonald) wrote in message news:<3f2e040f.27549603@news.tellurian.com>...

> I suppose that water should *mostly* get blown off by the heat cycling of a
> gearbox and in the normal case, of course (no deep puddles :-)), the only
> source of water there is atmospheric. I guess it depends on how low they
> want to go on their measurement. Certainly just about every petroleum type
> product, including synthetic oils, will have a small amount of water in it
> just from sitting around exposed to air.

I'm not sure how small of an amount Blackstone detects. Their printed
measurements suggest an accuracy of a tenth of a percent but I don't
know if I've seen a number other than 5 in that position so they may
report 0.10 through 0.40 as "0.0"

I'm just not sure. I know that in years past, accumulated moisture in
various sumps was always a big concern. Either it wasn't ever the
problem people thought it was or perhaps modern applications are
better at dealing with the moisture (venting it off, etc ...) than
ever before.

And yes, the changes in oil formulation in the past 2 years have shown
an incredible leap in additive packages ... but at least the UOAs have
been looking better as well ... especially M1 SS vs M1 Tri-Syn.

--- Bror Jace

How is being "too slick" detremental to the transmission?

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:38:32 GMT, "Mista Bone"
<MistaB0ne@cinci.rr.com> wrote:

>The 1988-2000 Civic SOHC tranny all use the same input shaft bearings. I
>myself have never had a "ISB" bearing failure, but I usually have the tranny
>out every 15k-20K miles for replacing 1-2 shifter fork, yes I drive
>ABUSIVE!!!!!
>
>The 1996-2000 trannys use a different (steel) shifter fork design that
>doesn't break like the 1988-1995 shifter forks.
>
>They ARE NOT interchangeable.
>
>Redline MTL leaves behind red GLOBS unless flushed with dino oil. The tranny
>in the link was ran with dino oil for 3,000 miles just to see if the problem
>was from Redline MTL, but it was too late.
>
>I've ran Redline MTL for 12k miles. The cold shifting IMPROVEMENT was nice.
>
>BTW NEVER EVER use synthetic motor oil in a Honda tranny, too slick.
>
>Bror Jace, I'm seeing others that use the MT-90 doing ok, no problems.

The brass synchros need to grip the gear face in order to match the gear
speeds.

If not you end up forcing the shift, and end up with crunching synchros.

--
Charles Tague
93 Honda Civic DX HB
1.6L SOHC VTEC 14.85 @ 89 mph,1.98 60 ft.
With ZEX 85 hp ZEX 13.09 @ 103 mph, 1.81 60ft.
86 Pontiac Trans Am
225/50/15 GForce Drag Radials
305 peanut cammed 15.29 @ 88 mph
http://home.cinci.rr.com/mistab0ne/
"Ken White" <ke875s@att.net> wrote in message
newsbvhkvccurjb4q8oua4ap4vv9gps584f36@4ax.com...
> How is being "too slick" detremental to the transmission?
>
> On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:38:32 GMT, "Mista Bone"
> <MistaB0ne@cinci.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >The 1988-2000 Civic SOHC tranny all use the same input shaft bearings. I
> >myself have never had a "ISB" bearing failure, but I usually have the
tranny
> >out every 15k-20K miles for replacing 1-2 shifter fork, yes I drive
> >ABUSIVE!!!!!
> >
> >The 1996-2000 trannys use a different (steel) shifter fork design that
> >doesn't break like the 1988-1995 shifter forks.
> >
> >They ARE NOT interchangeable.
> >
> >Redline MTL leaves behind red GLOBS unless flushed with dino oil. The
tranny
> >in the link was ran with dino oil for 3,000 miles just to see if the
problem
> >was from Redline MTL, but it was too late.
> >
> >I've ran Redline MTL for 12k miles. The cold shifting IMPROVEMENT was
nice.
> >
> >BTW NEVER EVER use synthetic motor oil in a Honda tranny, too slick.
> >
> >Bror Jace, I'm seeing others that use the MT-90 doing ok, no problems.
>

Sorry I cannot reply to the top message, so I will post here.

I had similar experience with my tranny. I thought the problem was the
oil untill I discovered following TSB for our Civic's
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/TSBScans/sb626650.pdf It turned out to be
shift lever assembly corrosion.