Honda Car Forum

On 12 Jul 2003 07:05:00 -0700, kainip@hotmail.com (Kai) wrote:

>I would like to share my emission test experience with you. It may
>help some of you having problem passing the Ontario drive clean test
>with this car.
>I have learned a lot in the last 7 days.
>First a little history of my car. It has approx. 220,000 km on it now,
>it doesn't burn oil, it may go down one eighth of an inch from the
>full mark in 6 months, used synthetic oil from the very first oil
>change since new, changed oil and filter every 6 months. (I know some
>of you may say that's too long, but that's my car ) Back to the
>emissions test.
>Emission test first in effect for this car in July 1999.
>ASM 2525 test
> Limit Reading Result
>HCppm 80 29 pass
>CO % 0.45 0.34 pass
>NOppm 607 196 pass
>RPM 1897
>
>Everything passed.Good car
>
>July 2001
>
> 80 35 pass
> 0.45 0.79 fail
> 607 324 pass
>RPM 1857
>
>Thinking it may be the oxygen sensor.I tried to change it myself, but
>didn't have a proper socket for it. Didn't want to spend $23.00 for
>the socket. I didn't know how tight it was from the factory, I may not
>be able to get it out. So I took the car to the garage and see what
>they come up with. They call back to tell me may be it is the oxygen
>sensor and cost $240can total parts and labor plus emission test
>after. I Ok it and it passed.
>
>July 2001 after O2 changed.
>
> 80 35 pass
> 0.45 0.26 pass
> 607 121 pass
>RPM 1842
>
>Good for another two years
>
>July 2003 this is the experience I like to share with you.
>
>Ontario introduced a new CURB IDLE TEST. I have to change the chart.
>
> ASM2525 CURB IDLE TEST
> Limit reading result limit reading result
>HC ppm 71 67 pass 200 40 pass
>CO % 0.40 0.92 fail 1.00 0.17 pass
>NO ppm 537 198 pass n/a n/a n/a
>RPM 1790 RPM 844
>
>CO failed again, looked back to 2 years ago, results were very close,
>it is that O2 sensor again. I went to Canadian tire and bought a O2
>sensor socket on special for $18.00. Canadian tire wanted $87.00 for
>the O2, but no stock, needed special order. Called three other parts
>store price varies from $80.00, $125.00, $140.00 for the universal
>one, no connectors just 4 wires. Honda dealer wanted $250.00. The
>$80.00 one was make by NTK. So I took that one. No problem installing
>it.Took about 5 minus. The old one came out was the same make by NTK.
>Took it back for a retest, thinking it is going to pass. Wrong :{. It
>failed.

You can get a OE type, with correct connctor, at
<http://www.thepartsbin.com/>.

> 71 43 pass 200 43 pass
> 0.40 0.72 fail 1.00 0.08 pass
> 537 333 pass n/a n/a n/a
>RPM 1849 RPM 785
>
>Well it is not the O2 sensor this time .Time to do some tune up on
>the motor. Replaced spark plugs and rotor, dist cap looks good.
>Measured plug wire resistance good. Replaced PCV valve, replaced fuel
>filter, first time since new. Went to quick lube place, did a fuel
>injector clean. Took the car to the highway, drove at 120km at 3rd
>gear, not overdrive( 4 speed auto) for 30 minus. Took the car back for
>a retest. Failed again
>
> 71 62 pass 200 41 pass
> 0.4 0.73 fail 1 0.02 pass
> 537 342 pass
>RPM 1903 RPM 768
>
>Well I don't know what to do next. May be the CAT converter? The
>mechanic at the test center advised me that may be it is the EGR ports
>got plugged up, I need to drill the six access plugs out and use a
>steel wire to clean the passage deposits out. I never done anything
>like that or heard anything like that before. I have a Haynes menu, I
>don't recall anywhere in the book mentioning anything like that. So I
>let him do the work. Here is the results after the cleaning. I am in
>deep shits now
>
> 71 63 pass 200 46 pass
> 0.4 1.24 fail 1 0.03 pass
> 537 590 fail
>RPM 1936 RPM 799

Sounds like this mecahanic really screwed things up here - possibly
contaminated the O2 sensor with solvents he used during the "cleaning".
IMO he should have swallowed the cost of making things right after that
cock-up.

>The car now failed both the NO and CO.The original CO% is now sky
>rocketed through the roof. The mechanic told me it needed a good run
>on the highway and bring it back next day for a retest. Ok, I took the
>car to Wasaga beach for a few hours of sun and fun, it's one and half
>hour drive. I needed a break from all this. Drove the car back from
>the beach straight to the test center. The mechanic told me might be
>still deposit in the passage and he would open up the plugs again and
>clean it again before the retest. Ok it's done again and failed again.
>
> 71 78 fail 200 58 pass
> 0.4 1.19 fail 1 0.03 pass
> 537 339 pass
>RPM 1939 RPM 764
>
>Now the car failed HC and CO. The mechanic told me, everything seems
>to be ok my car is in a very good condition, it should pass. He didn't
>think the CAT would cause the problem. He recommended to remove and
>clean the Throttle body and the intake plenum. I looked at the Hayes
>menu, this one I can do myself. So I removed the Throttle body and the
>plenum, used carb cleaner Spic and Span the whole thing to a mirror
>surface. Sprayed all the holes inside and cleaned the IAC valve and
>the screen, the screen had a lot of carbon on it. I missed this one
>over the years. I didn't know about the screen. I can't find this one
>in the Hayes. Bought two new gaskets from Honda, put everything
>together, took me about 5 hour's altogether, felt good and learned
>something new. The car started ok , but it idled on park at 1200 RPM
>after fully warmed up. I counted the idle speed screw before and after
>I took it out to clean it, it was full of carbon on the tip and inside
>the hole. It was at four and a half turns, I have to turn it 3 quarter
>turns clockwise to bring the RPM down to 770. Took the car out for a
>spin, didn't feel any different.
>Since I am not sure if it would pass the test and the CAT is 12 years
>old. I took it to the shop to replace the CAT for $207.00. I am
>thinking this time it is going to pass. Wrong
>
>HC 71 92 fail 200 354 pass
>CO 0.40 0.87 fail 1 0.08 pass
>NO 537 410 pass
>RPM 1790 RPM 844
>
>Well, the mechanic who changed my CAT told me since I did all this
>work,if it doesn't pass, he doesn't know what to do next either.
>
>At this point in time, I gave up and decided to take it to the Honda
>dealer for a diagnostic. The Honda mechanic came back and told me all
>the parts I changed are not Honda,(I know,all their parts are triple
>priced ) and the cleaning work that was done may be not good enough
>(I don't think so). He is going to repeat everything I did and charge
>me both my arms and my legs for it. I told him just do the repair work
>for the maximum allowed for the conditional pass and I would just junk
>the car in two years. I have no idea what to do next.
>
>Guess what, people, he changed the $80.00 O2 sensor that I bought on
>the very first day the car failed the CO test with a $250.00 Honda one
>and passed the emission test. The mechanic sez " I told you so ". Here
>is the pass results.
>
> 71 22 pass 200 17 pass
> 0.40 0.03 pass 1.00 0.01 pass
> 537 533 pass
>RPM 1882 RPM 883
>
>The HC and CO are very good with the new O2. I don't know why the NO
>is so close to the limit after all the works have been done? I don't
>have to worry about this in 2 years. But in the end, I have learned a
>lot and the moral of the story is that don't buy the cheapest part you
>can get. May be if I would have spend a bit more money on the mid
>range priced O2 sensor, I would of passed the test on the first retest
>and missed all the fun I had for the last seven days. I would of
>......I know,the hind sight is always perfect 20/20.
>
>Sorry about the long post.Anyone care for a comment?

The pros and cons of universal vs. OE sensors have been discussed here
several times. The universals rarely work as well and tend not to last
very long. I believe it's been reported that even the Bosch OE type works
OK and of course, it's more expensive than their universal model.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

>
> The pros and cons of universal vs. OE sensors have been discussed here
> several times. The universals rarely work as well and tend not to last
> very long. I believe it's been reported that even the Bosch OE type works
> OK and of course, it's more expensive than their universal model.
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who,
me??

George,

I have researched the Internet and this news group for anything related to
things to do to pass the emission test. I guess I missed the discussions
regarding universal versus OEM o2 sensors. I wish I had seen it. This is a
very expensive lesson for me this time. But all is not lost since I have
three cars in my family, from now on I would never buy cheap component for
critical parts such as the o2 sensors. This is the reason I posted my story
in the group so that people won't make the same mistake like I did. To save
a few bucks end up spending big bucks.

Kai

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
news:3f1147bf.42805269@news.tellurian.com...

> >it.Took about 5 minus. The old one came out was the same make by NTK.
> >Took it back for a retest, thinking it is going to pass. Wrong :{. It
> >failed.
>
> You can get a OE type, with correct connctor, at
> <http://www.thepartsbin.com/>.

He paid $80CDN. Parts bin lists the NTK sensor for $103USD plus taxes,
shipping, and everything else. It'll be $200CDN by the time it's in his
hands, maybe more if they insist on using UPS.

"Stephen Bigelow" <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:v_eQa.21608$lJd1.684@news01.bloor.is.net.cabl e.rogers.com...
>
> "George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
> news:3f1147bf.42805269@news.tellurian.com...
>
> > >it.Took about 5 minus. The old one came out was the same make by NTK.
> > >Took it back for a retest, thinking it is going to pass. Wrong :{. It
> > >failed.
> >
> > You can get a OE type, with correct connctor, at
> > <http://www.thepartsbin.com/>.
>
> He paid $80CDN. Parts bin lists the NTK sensor for $103USD plus taxes,
> shipping, and everything else. It'll be $200CDN by the time it's in his
> hands, maybe more if they insist on using UPS.
>
>
>
>
Since the previous poster mentioned about a discussion regarding OEM Vs
UNIVERSAL O2 sensors. I have found the topic. After reading through it, some
people were saying that they are the same sensors, just that the NONE OEM
one don't have the connectors on it. Otherwise they are similar. Well , I
wanted to find out myself once and for all if this is the case. So this
morning I removed the Honda sensor to have a look at it. People, this Honda
sensor is made by NGK number 303H, it is physically much bigger, metal is
much thicker, it is almost twice the size of the NTK 21027. It is not the
same one, it definitely is a better build sensor. You get what you pay for.

The box that came with the NTK 21027 has an emblem with NGK/NTK on it. They
are from the same company. So this is settled, as far as I am concerned, it
is not the same sensor. I would gladly paid for the extra $170.00can OEM
sensor without any hesitations. This is the path I would take with my other
two cars, no buts no ifs. For the money I had wasted to pass the emission
test, I can put all new OEM sensors to all of my cars with money left over
to take some of you guys out for a beer.

Kai

We have a 1998 Saab turbo that was showing an O2 sensor code, the Saab part
was ~250CAD so I was looking for an alternative, it was seemingly just a
heated bosch narrow band unit and I found that VW was selling one on a
service reimbursement program (for out of warrantee failures) for $30CAD.
After I changed the connector and put it in the car, the car would give the
code once in a while. I finally got the Saab part and after looking at the
two I noticed that the openings around the tip were different. With the Saab
sensor the car shows no codes and works great.

Just my experience.
Craig.


"Stephen Bigelow" <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:v_eQa.21608$lJd1.684@news01.bloor.is.net.cabl e.rogers.com...
>
> "George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
> news:3f1147bf.42805269@news.tellurian.com...
>
> > >it.Took about 5 minus. The old one came out was the same make by NTK.
> > >Took it back for a retest, thinking it is going to pass. Wrong :{. It
> > >failed.
> >
> > You can get a OE type, with correct connctor, at
> > <http://www.thepartsbin.com/>.
>
> He paid $80CDN. Parts bin lists the NTK sensor for $103USD plus taxes,
> shipping, and everything else. It'll be $200CDN by the time it's in his
> hands, maybe more if they insist on using UPS.
>
>
>
>

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 15:34:51 GMT, "Stephen Bigelow"
<sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote:

>
>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
>news:3f1147bf.42805269@news.tellurian.com...
>
>> >it.Took about 5 minus. The old one came out was the same make by NTK.
>> >Took it back for a retest, thinking it is going to pass. Wrong :{. It
>> >failed.
>>
>> You can get a OE type, with correct connctor, at
>> <http://www.thepartsbin.com/>.
>
>He paid $80CDN. Parts bin lists the NTK sensor for $103USD plus taxes,
>shipping, and everything else. It'll be $200CDN by the time it's in his
>hands, maybe more if they insist on using UPS.

Hmmm, the difference in pricing between the DX/LX and the EX models for O2
sensors is kinda weird there but they claim that UPS ground shipping is
"free" and uhh, taxes on on-line purchases?... I don't think so.;-) Not
sure what "everything else" means?

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 16:25:28 GMT, "kai" <kainip@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Stephen Bigelow" <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote in message
>news:v_eQa.21608$lJd1.684@news01.bloor.is.net.cab le.rogers.com...
>>
>> "George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
>> news:3f1147bf.42805269@news.tellurian.com...
>>
>> > >it.Took about 5 minus. The old one came out was the same make by NTK.
>> > >Took it back for a retest, thinking it is going to pass. Wrong :{. It
>> > >failed.
>> >
>> > You can get a OE type, with correct connctor, at
>> > <http://www.thepartsbin.com/>.
>>
>> He paid $80CDN. Parts bin lists the NTK sensor for $103USD plus taxes,
>> shipping, and everything else. It'll be $200CDN by the time it's in his
>> hands, maybe more if they insist on using UPS.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Since the previous poster mentioned about a discussion regarding OEM Vs
>UNIVERSAL O2 sensors. I have found the topic. After reading through it, some
>people were saying that they are the same sensors, just that the NONE OEM
>one don't have the connectors on it. Otherwise they are similar. Well , I
>wanted to find out myself once and for all if this is the case. So this
>morning I removed the Honda sensor to have a look at it. People, this Honda
>sensor is made by NGK number 303H, it is physically much bigger, metal is
>much thicker, it is almost twice the size of the NTK 21027. It is not the
>same one, it definitely is a better build sensor. You get what you pay for.
>
>The box that came with the NTK 21027 has an emblem with NGK/NTK on it. They
>are from the same company. So this is settled, as far as I am concerned, it
>is not the same sensor. I would gladly paid for the extra $170.00can OEM
>sensor without any hesitations. This is the path I would take with my other
>two cars, no buts no ifs. For the money I had wasted to pass the emission
>test, I can put all new OEM sensors to all of my cars with money left over
>to take some of you guys out for a beer.

Interesting info. Have you looked at the pictures at <www.partsbin.com> to
see if you can get an impression whether the parts they sell are the same
as the Honda OE part... as they claim it to be.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
news:3f127374.119542594@news.tellurian.com...
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 15:34:51 GMT, "Stephen Bigelow"
> <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in
message
> >news:3f1147bf.42805269@news.tellurian.com...
> >
> >> >it.Took about 5 minus. The old one came out was the same make by NTK.
> >> >Took it back for a retest, thinking it is going to pass. Wrong :{. It
> >> >failed.
> >>
> >> You can get a OE type, with correct connctor, at
> >> <http://www.thepartsbin.com/>.
> >
> >He paid $80CDN. Parts bin lists the NTK sensor for $103USD plus taxes,
> >shipping, and everything else. It'll be $200CDN by the time it's in his
> >hands, maybe more if they insist on using UPS.
>
> Hmmm, the difference in pricing between the DX/LX and the EX models for O2
> sensors is kinda weird there but they claim that UPS ground shipping is
> "free"

For the continental US. He's in Toronto.

and uhh, taxes on on-line purchases?... I don't think so.;-) Not
> sure what "everything else" means?

GST. Duty. Shipping. UPS Brokerge fees.

You _do_ understand Toronto isn't part of the US, right?

Cheers.