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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 27 May 2005, 11:25 pm
TeGGeR®
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Default Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ

After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
big updates.

1) New section on igniter function
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html

2) Coil failure
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil

Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
are surely mistakes somewhere.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 28 May 2005, 06:05 am
Remco
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Default Re: Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ

TeGGeR® wrote:
> After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
> big updates.
>
> 1) New section on igniter function
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>
> 2) Coil failure
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>
> Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
> are surely mistakes somewhere.


Good job, John. Thanks!

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 28 May 2005, 07:28 am
TeGGeR®
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Default Re: Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ

"Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1117278349.305101.146650@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:

> TeGGeR® wrote:
>> After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally
>> finished two big updates.
>>
>> 1) New section on igniter function
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>>
>> 2) Coil failure
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>>
>> Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so
>> there are surely mistakes somewhere.

>
> Good job, John. Thanks!
>



Thanks.

Thanks are also owed to all those (including you) who helped by supplying
much valuable information.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 28 May 2005, 12:25 pm
Jason
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Default Re: Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ

In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>, "TeGGeR®"
<tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:

> After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
> big updates.
>
> 1) New section on igniter function
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>
> 2) Coil failure
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>
> Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
> are surely mistakes somewhere.


Tegger,
Thanks again for your help. I just wanted to let you know that I received
a letter from Honda and the title of the recall notice was:
Ignition key is removable with the shift lever out of Park

I took my Honda to the local Honda dealership and they installed the
following as per the service report:
1 06351-S84-000 KIT, LEVER (A)

I don't know whether the first number 1 is part of the part number or
means that only one kit was installed. I hope this helps. I have not yet
had a chance to revisit your web site.

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.



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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 30 May 2005, 07:16 pm
Kevin McMurtrie
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Default Re: Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ

In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:

> After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
> big updates.
>
> 1) New section on igniter function
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>
> 2) Coil failure
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>
> Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
> are surely mistakes somewhere.


A little adjustment to the graphics:

The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary winding
(which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the transistors.

And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic ignition
systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage on the
primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise faster than
some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even rise before
the spark plug discharges the energy.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 30 May 2005, 07:31 pm
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>
>
>>After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
>>big updates.
>>
>>1) New section on igniter function
>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>>
>>2) Coil failure
>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>>
>>Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
>>are surely mistakes somewhere.

>
>
> A little adjustment to the graphics:
>
> The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
> ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary winding
> (which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the transistors.
>
> And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic ignition
> systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage on the
> primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise faster than
> some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even rise before
> the spark plug discharges the energy.


interesting. i had 2 igniters fail inside a year on my 89 civic &
subsequently discovered that the condenser had failed. presumably,
excess flyback was responsible. but, my 91 crx has no condenser at all,
from factory. what's up with that? works fine, no r.f problems. both
have the same igniter. any thoughts?

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 30 May 2005, 09:20 pm
Kevin McMurtrie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ

In article <k6GdnTKjuPj7LQbfRVn-hw@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> > In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
> > "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
> >>big updates.
> >>
> >>1) New section on igniter function
> >>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
> >>
> >>2) Coil failure
> >>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
> >>
> >>Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
> >>are surely mistakes somewhere.

> >
> >
> > A little adjustment to the graphics:
> >
> > The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
> > ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary winding
> > (which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the transistors.
> >
> > And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic ignition
> > systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage on the
> > primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise faster than
> > some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even rise before
> > the spark plug discharges the energy.

>
> interesting. i had 2 igniters fail inside a year on my 89 civic &
> subsequently discovered that the condenser had failed. presumably,
> excess flyback was responsible. but, my 91 crx has no condenser at all,
> from factory. what's up with that? works fine, no r.f problems. both
> have the same igniter. any thoughts?


The coil might have an internal condenser or a small shorted winding.
An oscilloscope on the primary coil would show you what's going on.

I'm doing this from memory so the shape might be a little off:


v- Spark plug discharge

|
|
|#
|##
| |
| |
| |
--- | --------------------------
-----------

^ ^ ^ flyback
| charge
open circuit


Without a condenser, the initial spike is much higher and it rises so
steeply that it might not produce a visible trace on the oscilloscope.



|


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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 30 May 2005, 09:55 pm
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> In article <k6GdnTKjuPj7LQbfRVn-hw@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
>>
>>>In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
>>> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally finished two
>>>>big updates.
>>>>
>>>>1) New section on igniter function
>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>>>>
>>>>2) Coil failure
>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>>>>
>>>>Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so there
>>>>are surely mistakes somewhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>A little adjustment to the graphics:
>>>
>>>The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
>>>ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary winding
>>>(which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the transistors.
>>>
>>>And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic ignition
>>>systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage on the
>>>primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise faster than
>>>some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even rise before
>>>the spark plug discharges the energy.

>>
>>interesting. i had 2 igniters fail inside a year on my 89 civic &
>>subsequently discovered that the condenser had failed. presumably,
>>excess flyback was responsible. but, my 91 crx has no condenser at all,
>>from factory. what's up with that? works fine, no r.f problems. both
>>have the same igniter. any thoughts?

>
>
> The coil might have an internal condenser or a small shorted winding.
> An oscilloscope on the primary coil would show you what's going on.
>
> I'm doing this from memory so the shape might be a little off:
>
>
> v- Spark plug discharge
>
> |
> |
> |#
> |##
> | |
> | |
> | |
> --- | --------------------------
> -----------
>
> ^ ^ ^ flyback
> | charge
> open circuit
>
>
> Without a condenser, the initial spike is much higher and it rises so
> steeply that it might not produce a visible trace on the oscilloscope.
>
>
>
> |
>
>
> .
>
>
> .#
> ##
> |
> |
> |
> --- --------------------------
> -----------


makes sense. i have an old scope so i can check between the two. thanks!

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 30 May 2005, 10:30 pm
TeGGeR®
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ

Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote in
news:mcmurtri-579156.17160130052005@corp-radius.supernews.com:

> In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>
>> After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally
>> finished two big updates.
>>
>> 1) New section on igniter function
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
>>
>> 2) Coil failure
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
>>
>> Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so
>> there are surely mistakes somewhere.

>
> A little adjustment to the graphics:
>
> The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
> ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary
> winding (which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the
> transistors.



Take a look at this, from Graham W.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/rov-ign.jpg


>
> And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic
> ignition systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage
> on the primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise
> faster than some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even
> rise before the spark plug discharges the energy.



So how would I show that in the graphic? If there's a cap somewhere to
blunt the flyback, I'd like to have that shown.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 30 May 2005, 11:20 pm
Kevin McMurtrie
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ

In article <Xns9666EF231308Dtegger@207.14.113.17>,
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:

> Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote in
> news:mcmurtri-579156.17160130052005@corp-radius.supernews.com:
>
> > In article <Xns966440B3E088tegger@207.14.113.17>,
> > "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >
> >> After a long passage of time and much dithering, I've finally
> >> finished two big updates.
> >>
> >> 1) New section on igniter function
> >> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit.../howworks.html
> >>
> >> 2) Coil failure
> >> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...s.html#badcoil
> >>
> >> Any critical advice is welcome. I'm not an electronics engineer, so
> >> there are surely mistakes somewhere.

> >
> > A little adjustment to the graphics:
> >
> > The darlington pair is the switch. Pin 3 would be the pulses from the
> > ECU or magnetic pickup. The tach connects either to the primary
> > winding (which makes radio interference) or to whatever drives the
> > transistors.

>
>
> Take a look at this, from Graham W.
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/rov-ign.jpg
>


There's a lot more in the Ignition Control Module than a darlington
pair. As I see it:

1: Tach output
2: Coil output
3: +12V
4: TDC pickup
Case: GND

The TDC sensor produces a curved waveform. Integrating the form
(high-pass) can produce the advanced timing needed for dwell.


> >
> > And yes, the ignitor gets flyback voltage too. Some electronic
> > ignition systems still need the condenser because the flyback voltage
> > on the primary side otherwise rises extremely rapidly. It can rise
> > faster than some high voltage transistors can turn off and it can even
> > rise before the spark plug discharges the energy.

>
>
> So how would I show that in the graphic? If there's a cap somewhere to
> blunt the flyback, I'd like to have that shown.


Maybe Jim Beam can take a photo of his o-scope. My new Honda has a coil
on top of each spark plug so I'm not sure I can tap into the primary
coil. I have a circuit that drives coils but it's not quite the same as
a car ignition. Want a picture of that trace?
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