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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03 Jul 2010, 10:25 pm
Optimus Prime
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Default Honest question: why should I get overpriced Honda (and Toyota?)


I'm car shopping and I'm comparing the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla,
and Hyundai Elantra. I have to say Corolla sucks and waste of money.
It's between Civic and Elantra. However, for the same price I get so
many more advanced features with Elantra (ABS, etc.) Why should I get
a Honda Civic?

P.S. I'm a Honda lover and longtime Civic driver, but Elantra just has
so many additional features for the best bang for the buck, why should
I stick with Honda?


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04 Jul 2010, 07:43 am
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: Honest question: why should I get overpriced Honda (and Toyota?)

In article <4lvv261dffjuf3b2nab4e5m4375eil3oq4@4ax.com>,
Optimus Prime <jcarter@verizon.net> wrote:

> I'm car shopping and I'm comparing the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla,
> and Hyundai Elantra. I have to say Corolla sucks and waste of money.


Care to elaborate?


> It's between Civic and Elantra. However, for the same price I get so
> many more advanced features with Elantra (ABS, etc.) Why should I get
> a Honda Civic?


Care to elaborate on all of the "advanced features" on the Elantra as
compared to what comes on the Civic? What models are we comparing?

Anyway, for one thing, awhile back Honda embarked on a program of
"Safety for Everyone"--that is, they specifically marketed that they
were NOT going to save the advanced safety features for the expensive
cars, that ALL their cars--base Civic (or Fit) on up were going to get
all of their advanced safety features.

Is that still the case? How does the Civic rate against the Elantra in
that category?

I mean, bells and whistles are nice, but you have to have the core
functionality and engineering first.


> P.S. I'm a Honda lover and longtime Civic driver, but Elantra just has
> so many additional features for the best bang for the buck, why should
> I stick with Honda?


Aye, there's the rub. Is it in fact the "best bang for the buck," or
are you just being seduced by the bells and whistles?


Years ago we bought a treadmill. It was your standard thing that most
people think of--not very expensive, but with lots of programs and
buttons and lights. Three years later, it broke and we wanted to
replace it.

We realized that we really didn't use any of the bells and whistles at
all. So I went back to the sporting goods store and asked the guy, do
you have one without all the crap? He took me right to one that filled
the bill for that. Dirt simple. Beautiful.

And you know what? It was $2100 (this was ten years ago at this point).
Incline and speed adjustments only, just like I wanted. OK...so why the
F*CK is this $2100? By the time he was finished and after I did some
research, I discovered why--because it was from a company that built
nothing but treadmills, and their stuff is designed to last. It's all
about the frame and the motors and the tread deck and tread belt.
Without that, you get junk. Pretty blinking lights and computer chips
are cheap, but those motors? The INCLINE motor on this one was twice as
heavy and powerful as the TREAD motor on the one that broke. That's
just one example of the core functionality and engineering that made the
difference.

Yeah, I bought it. Smart move, as it turned out.

Over the years, I had a few opportunities to call the manufacturer
regarding some little things--a couple rear feet that kept cracking (and
which they kept replacing until they got it right), and one time it
wouldn't turn on at all--and over the phone in about three minutes one
of their tech guys helped me find the broken wire, broken thanks to my
kids bouncing on the hood over the motors and control units.

And when the incline adjustment rocker switch got gummed up and quit
working, it was a cheap part that was easy for me to replace--because
the design of this unit was well thought out, simple, and designed for
REPAIR. This is not a disposable unit like the cheap things on the
market.

Core engineering. It has to be good or you're throwing money away.

The moral to my story is this: bells and whistles are a cheap and easy
way to attract your eye, like the lights and sounds in Las Vegas. But
they don't mean anything in and of themselves. Make sure you have core
goodness underneath first.

That all being said, Honda is very scared of Hyundai. I believe they're
justified in that. But keep in mind, every company's cheapest product
is their cheapest product. My guess is that I'd take Honda's cheapest
product over Hyundai's. When cheap happens, something's gotta give.
Honda's been doing the Civic longer than Hyundai's been in the market
overall. There's no room for mistakes on your cheapest product. Honda
probably has those well ironed out.

Also consider your support infrastructure. You know Hondas very well
from having owned them. I presume you also know where to take it for
service, where to buy parts, what the accessories market is, etc. Are
you happy with your support infrastructure? If so, that makes moving to
a different brand harder. But if you hate whatever service is available
for your Honda, it's not that much of a throw of the dice moving to
Hyundai.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04 Jul 2010, 10:00 am
Dddudley
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Honest question: why should I get overpriced Honda (and Toyota?)

On 7/4/2010 7:43 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article<4lvv261dffjuf3b2nab4e5m4375eil3oq4@4ax.com >,
> Optimus Prime<jcarter@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm car shopping and I'm comparing the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla,
>> and Hyundai Elantra. I have to say Corolla sucks and waste of money.

>
> Care to elaborate?


[snipped out a whole bunch of really intelligent comments]

>
> Also consider your support infrastructure. You know Hondas very well
> from having owned them. I presume you also know where to take it for
> service, where to buy parts, what the accessories market is, etc. Are
> you happy with your support infrastructure? If so, that makes moving to
> a different brand harder. But if you hate whatever service is available
> for your Honda, it's not that much of a throw of the dice moving to
> Hyundai.


Outstanding comments, Elmo. Thoughts to consider and be guided by
across the board of consumerism.



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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04 Jul 2010, 11:02 am
Steven L.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Honest question: why should I get overpriced Honda (and Toyota?)

"Optimus Prime" <jcarter@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:4lvv261dffjuf3b2nab4e5m4375eil3oq4@4ax.com:

> I'm car shopping and I'm comparing the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla,
> and Hyundai Elantra. I have to say Corolla sucks and waste of money.
> It's between Civic and Elantra. However, for the same price I get so
> many more advanced features with Elantra (ABS, etc.) Why should I get
> a Honda Civic?
>
> P.S. I'm a Honda lover and longtime Civic driver, but Elantra just has
> so many additional features for the best bang for the buck, why should
> I stick with Honda?


According to Consumer Reports, the Civic's reliability record is
superior; its side-crash test results are superior; and its fuel economy
is superior; to those of the Elantra.

The Elantra is not a bad car. But the Civic still edges it out. (And
my 2010 Civic, which I just bought, has ABS and air bags that seem to be
just about all over the cabin.)


-- Steven L.


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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04 Jul 2010, 06:58 pm
Tegger
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Honest question: why should I get overpriced Honda (and Toyota?)

Optimus Prime <jcarter@verizon.net> wrote in
news:4lvv261dffjuf3b2nab4e5m4375eil3oq4@4ax.com:

>
> I'm car shopping and I'm comparing the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla,
> and Hyundai Elantra. I have to say Corolla sucks and waste of money.
> It's between Civic and Elantra. However, for the same price I get so
> many more advanced features with Elantra (ABS, etc.) Why should I get
> a Honda Civic?
>
> P.S. I'm a Honda lover and longtime Civic driver, but Elantra just has
> so many additional features for the best bang for the buck, why should
> I stick with Honda?
>
>




Hyundai/Kia has made enormous strides in surface-quality. Body-panel fit
and alignment are superlative at any price. Ride and handling are much
improved and fairly nice, for the price. Interiors are pretty good, for the
price. But it doesn't go much deeper than that, yet.

Talk to the techs in the trade. Hyundai/Kia (like Suzuki) still has big
problems with reliability of the electronics.

And since most of the car--from engine/emission controls to SRS to
passenger-comfort--is electronically-controlled, electronic reliability is
fairly important these days.

If you buy a Hyundai/Kia, don't count on much, past the warranty period.

--
Tegger
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04 Jul 2010, 09:05 pm
pws
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Honest question: why should I get overpriced Honda (and Toyota?)

On 7/4/2010 6:58 PM, Tegger wrote:

> Hyundai/Kia has made enormous strides in surface-quality. Body-panel fit
> and alignment are superlative at any price. Ride and handling are much
> improved and fairly nice, for the price. Interiors are pretty good, for the
> price. But it doesn't go much deeper than that, yet.
>
> Talk to the techs in the trade. Hyundai/Kia (like Suzuki) still has big
> problems with reliability of the electronics.
>
> And since most of the car--from engine/emission controls to SRS to
> passenger-comfort--is electronically-controlled, electronic reliability is
> fairly important these days.
>
> If you buy a Hyundai/Kia, don't count on much, past the warranty period.


I completely agree with this.

My parents are due to replace their 1994 Toyota Camry, and I have
convinced them to stay with Toyota again, or to try the Honda Accord.

The Camry was originally chosen over the Accord because of ride comfort,
mainly the seats, and interior noise levels. This shows the priorities
of the buyers.
This was in 1995, and I have a 1995 Accord to compare the car to, though
the Camry has more than twice as many miles, it was not maintained that
well, and it started life as a rental fleet vehicle.

Despite this, the Camry has done great for the past 16+ years. It
receives harsh treatment on the weekends, and probably has as many
starts as a car with twice as many miles (car has 174,000 miles now, and
it usually gets started more times on Saturday than the total starts
from Sunday through Friday).

Anyway, they are looking to get a 4 cylinder again. The car has to be a
4-door sedan with an automatic.
If they pay a little "extra" for a Honda or a Toyota, that is fine, they
get a lot of years out of a vehicle, and I am not ready to fully put my
trust into Hyundai yet, at least not enough for years of
payments.............

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06 Jul 2010, 11:49 pm
Optimus Prime
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Honest question: why should I get overpriced Honda (and Toyota?)

On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 23:25:10 -0400, Optimus Prime
<jcarter@verizon.net> wrote:

>
>I'm car shopping and I'm comparing the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla,
>and Hyundai Elantra. I have to say Corolla sucks and waste of money.
>It's between Civic and Elantra. However, for the same price I get so
>many more advanced features with Elantra (ABS, etc.) Why should I get
>a Honda Civic?
>
>P.S. I'm a Honda lover and longtime Civic driver, but Elantra just has
>so many additional features for the best bang for the buck, why should
>I stick with Honda?
>


Thanks for all the comments, ok, I guess I'll stick with the Civics.
I'm still driving my old Civics HX and I wish Honda didn't
discontinued the HX brand. I'm getting 38 mpg without the Hybrid
hype.

Ok, will try out the Civic Si or EX, thanks guys.

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08 Jul 2010, 01:04 pm
Steven L.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Honest question: why should I get overpriced Honda (and Toyota?)



"Optimus Prime" <jcarter@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:un1836lkcbn2egp8kreois93q2eub7mdol@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 23:25:10 -0400, Optimus Prime
> <jcarter@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >I'm car shopping and I'm comparing the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla,
> >and Hyundai Elantra. I have to say Corolla sucks and waste of money.
> >It's between Civic and Elantra. However, for the same price I get so
> >many more advanced features with Elantra (ABS, etc.) Why should I get
> >a Honda Civic?
> >
> >P.S. I'm a Honda lover and longtime Civic driver, but Elantra just has
> >so many additional features for the best bang for the buck, why should
> >I stick with Honda?
> >

>
> Thanks for all the comments, ok, I guess I'll stick with the Civics.
> I'm still driving my old Civics HX and I wish Honda didn't
> discontinued the HX brand. I'm getting 38 mpg without the Hybrid
> hype.
>
> Ok, will try out the Civic Si or EX, thanks guys.


I just bought a 2010 Civic EX coupe. I love it.

With my health problems, I needed a reliable car to transport me to the
dialysis center 3x/week and to hospitals on occasion.



-- Steven L.


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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 09 Jul 2010, 09:15 am
rjdriver
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Honest question: why should I get overpriced Honda (and Toyota?)


"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-8C817C.08433204072010@62-183-169-81.bb.dnainternet.fi...
> In article <4lvv261dffjuf3b2nab4e5m4375eil3oq4@4ax.com>,
> Optimus Prime <jcarter@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm car shopping and I'm comparing the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla,
>> and Hyundai Elantra. I have to say Corolla sucks and waste of money.

>
> Care to elaborate?
>
>
>> It's between Civic and Elantra. However, for the same price I get so
>> many more advanced features with Elantra (ABS, etc.) Why should I get
>> a Honda Civic?

>
> Care to elaborate on all of the "advanced features" on the Elantra as
> compared to what comes on the Civic? What models are we comparing?
>
> Anyway, for one thing, awhile back Honda embarked on a program of
> "Safety for Everyone"--that is, they specifically marketed that they
> were NOT going to save the advanced safety features for the expensive
> cars, that ALL their cars--base Civic (or Fit) on up were going to get
> all of their advanced safety features.
>
> Is that still the case? How does the Civic rate against the Elantra in
> that category?
>
> I mean, bells and whistles are nice, but you have to have the core
> functionality and engineering first.
>
>
>> P.S. I'm a Honda lover and longtime Civic driver, but Elantra just has
>> so many additional features for the best bang for the buck, why should
>> I stick with Honda?

>
> Aye, there's the rub. Is it in fact the "best bang for the buck," or
> are you just being seduced by the bells and whistles?
>
>
> Years ago we bought a treadmill. It was your standard thing that most
> people think of--not very expensive, but with lots of programs and
> buttons and lights. Three years later, it broke and we wanted to
> replace it.
>
> We realized that we really didn't use any of the bells and whistles at
> all. So I went back to the sporting goods store and asked the guy, do
> you have one without all the crap? He took me right to one that filled
> the bill for that. Dirt simple. Beautiful.
>
> And you know what? It was $2100 (this was ten years ago at this point).
> Incline and speed adjustments only, just like I wanted. OK...so why the
> F*CK is this $2100? By the time he was finished and after I did some
> research, I discovered why--because it was from a company that built
> nothing but treadmills, and their stuff is designed to last. It's all
> about the frame and the motors and the tread deck and tread belt.
> Without that, you get junk. Pretty blinking lights and computer chips
> are cheap, but those motors? The INCLINE motor on this one was twice as
> heavy and powerful as the TREAD motor on the one that broke. That's
> just one example of the core functionality and engineering that made the
> difference.
>
> Yeah, I bought it. Smart move, as it turned out.
>
> Over the years, I had a few opportunities to call the manufacturer
> regarding some little things--a couple rear feet that kept cracking (and
> which they kept replacing until they got it right), and one time it
> wouldn't turn on at all--and over the phone in about three minutes one
> of their tech guys helped me find the broken wire, broken thanks to my
> kids bouncing on the hood over the motors and control units.
>
> And when the incline adjustment rocker switch got gummed up and quit
> working, it was a cheap part that was easy for me to replace--because
> the design of this unit was well thought out, simple, and designed for
> REPAIR. This is not a disposable unit like the cheap things on the
> market.
>
> Core engineering. It has to be good or you're throwing money away.
>
> The moral to my story is this: bells and whistles are a cheap and easy
> way to attract your eye, like the lights and sounds in Las Vegas. But
> they don't mean anything in and of themselves. Make sure you have core
> goodness underneath first.
>
> That all being said, Honda is very scared of Hyundai. I believe they're
> justified in that. But keep in mind, every company's cheapest product
> is their cheapest product. My guess is that I'd take Honda's cheapest
> product over Hyundai's. When cheap happens, something's gotta give.
> Honda's been doing the Civic longer than Hyundai's been in the market
> overall. There's no room for mistakes on your cheapest product. Honda
> probably has those well ironed out.
>
> Also consider your support infrastructure. You know Hondas very well
> from having owned them. I presume you also know where to take it for
> service, where to buy parts, what the accessories market is, etc. Are
> you happy with your support infrastructure? If so, that makes moving to
> a different brand harder. But if you hate whatever service is available
> for your Honda, it's not that much of a throw of the dice moving to
> Hyundai.


Good grief, Elmo - after all that you didn't even tell us the brand name and
model of the treadmill! I know, that wasn't the point of your post. I
just happen to be in the market for one, and it's minefield out there.
After some research, I have already figured that I'll have to pay at least
$1500 to get anything that will last, but maybe I need to revise that up a
bit. Any direction would be appreciated.


Bob




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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 09 Jul 2010, 04:51 pm
Elmo P. Shagnasty
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Honest question: why should I get overpriced Honda (and Toyota?)

In article <i17aqm$bh8$1@speranza.aioe.org>,
"rjdriver" <rjdriversNOSPAM@cox.net> wrote:

> Good grief, Elmo - after all that you didn't even tell us the brand name and
> model of the treadmill! I know, that wasn't the point of your post. I
> just happen to be in the market for one, and it's minefield out there.
> After some research, I have already figured that I'll have to pay at least
> $1500 to get anything that will last, but maybe I need to revise that up a
> bit. Any direction would be appreciated.


hehehehe Sorry. Landice.

When it didn't turn on that one day, I just called them and ended up
speaking with one of their technical people. He knew this model inside
out, apparently; he started at the beginning and had me look at the
wiring and connections, one at a time. Inside a minute, by step 4 or
something, I came to a wire that had broken at the connector, due to
abuse by my children bouncing on the plastic hood (I imagine; there's no
other way this could have broken). Anyway, I was able to put a new
connector onto the end and plug it in, and away I went.

If you're going to use it, then spend money on it. I like my Landice
8700 Sprint. I imagine other treadmill-only manufacturers probaby do it
just as well. But it's a big stretch for most consumers to move up to
that level, to spend enough money to buy a machine that works just as
well in a club environment as it does at home with one or two people.
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