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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07 Jun 2010, 01:08 pm
jim beam
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Default oil level reading - simple logic

imagine this: you're a car manufacturer, and you sell cars all over the
world. some you sell to taxi fleets, some to farmers, some to people in
places really freakin' cold, some to people in places ass-boilingly hot,
some to moms & pops who live in cities where there's hardly a single
level driveway for miles. like san francisco.

now, since you're trying to be practical about this, and you want
something that's easy to do and which will account for all these
variations, how are you going to calibrate an oil dipstick? are you
going to calibrate it to be read at -30°C ambient? how about +50°C
ambient? after being stood overnight? like all taxi fleets are going
to take a vehicle off the road for 8 hours just to read the oil level?
how about a 30° slope, sideways? /all/ driveways are like that, right?
and what if consumers insist on using crappy oil filters with leaky
drain-back valves? are you stumped for a universal solution to this???

well, these genius companies with their legions of smarty-pants
engineers have come up with a deceptively simple solution: calibrate the
dip stick for a reading that can be made at the gas station!!! utterly
brilliant!!!!

has anyone ever noticed how all the world's gas stations are carefully
designed so their forecourts are level? has anyone ever noticed how it
only takes a few minutes to fill the gas tank? has anyone ever
considered that regardless of whether you're in fairbanks, alaska or las
vegas, nevada, oil operating temps are pretty much the same? that even
leaky oil filter drain-back valves don't leak that fast? well, consider
it now ladies and usenet freaks - your vehicle's manufacturer got all
figured out. smart huh? and the gas station likely provides you with
FREE handy wipes so you can attend to this mundane task cleanly. and
best of all, each and every reading is CONSISTENT!!!!!!!!!!!!

see - it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to think this stuff through.
it's notable how the whiners, complainers and brave macho usenet bullies
never stop their keyboard masturbation long enough to do it though.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07 Jun 2010, 02:23 pm
ACAR
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Default Re: oil level reading - simple logic

On Jun 7, 2:08*pm, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> imagine this...


someone raises a hood at a self serve gas station!

Imagine this...'cause nobody does it.



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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07 Jun 2010, 02:53 pm
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: oil level reading - simple logic

On 06/07/2010 12:23 PM, ACAR wrote:
> On Jun 7, 2:08�pm, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> imagine this...

>
> someone raises a hood at a self serve gas station!
>
> Imagine this...'cause nobody does it.
>


"nobody does it"??? is that why gas stations sell oil and give you free
wipes to do this stuff with?


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07 Jun 2010, 06:49 pm
Grumpy AuContraire
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: oil level reading - simple logic

jim beam wrote:
> imagine this: you're a car manufacturer, and you sell cars all over the
> world. some you sell to taxi fleets, some to farmers, some to people in
> places really freakin' cold, some to people in places ass-boilingly hot,
> some to moms & pops who live in cities where there's hardly a single
> level driveway for miles. like san francisco.
>
> now, since you're trying to be practical about this, and you want
> something that's easy to do and which will account for all these
> variations, how are you going to calibrate an oil dipstick? are you
> going to calibrate it to be read at -30°C ambient? how about +50°C
> ambient? after being stood overnight? like all taxi fleets are going
> to take a vehicle off the road for 8 hours just to read the oil level?
> how about a 30° slope, sideways? /all/ driveways are like that, right?
> and what if consumers insist on using crappy oil filters with leaky
> drain-back valves? are you stumped for a universal solution to this???
>
> well, these genius companies with their legions of smarty-pants
> engineers have come up with a deceptively simple solution: calibrate the
> dip stick for a reading that can be made at the gas station!!! utterly
> brilliant!!!!
>
> has anyone ever noticed how all the world's gas stations are carefully
> designed so their forecourts are level? has anyone ever noticed how it
> only takes a few minutes to fill the gas tank? has anyone ever
> considered that regardless of whether you're in fairbanks, alaska or las
> vegas, nevada, oil operating temps are pretty much the same? that even
> leaky oil filter drain-back valves don't leak that fast? well, consider
> it now ladies and usenet freaks - your vehicle's manufacturer got all
> figured out. smart huh? and the gas station likely provides you with
> FREE handy wipes so you can attend to this mundane task cleanly. and
> best of all, each and every reading is CONSISTENT!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> see - it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to think this stuff through. it's
> notable how the whiners, complainers and brave macho usenet bullies
> never stop their keyboard masturbation long enough to do it though.
>
>




Yeah, but how many in this dumbed down society are actually capable of
reading (or finding) the dipstick?

<sigh>

JT

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08 Jun 2010, 05:48 am
tww1491
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: oil level reading - simple logic



"ACAR" <dimndsonmywndshld@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1139da92-8da8-4f30-8781-0c61203dc954@k39g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 2:08 pm, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> imagine this...

>
> someone raises a hood at a self serve gas station!
>
> Imagine this...'cause nobody does it.
>
>
>

From what I have seen, no one raises the hood at a gas station. I do -- but
I do out of habit as and old motorcycle/sports cars enthusiast dating back
to the 50s. Heck the 64 XKE I had back in the 60s would use around a quart
every couple hundred miles or so-- and it held 10 qts as I recall. So, I
carried my own oil. And, today everything is hidden under a wad of plastic
shielding.

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08 Jun 2010, 08:36 am
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: oil level reading - simple logic

On 06/08/2010 03:48 AM, tww1491 wrote:
>
>
> "ACAR" <dimndsonmywndshld@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1139da92-8da8-4f30-8781-0c61203dc954@k39g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jun 7, 2:08 pm, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>> imagine this...

>>
>> someone raises a hood at a self serve gas station!
>>
>> Imagine this...'cause nobody does it.
>>
>>
>>

> From what I have seen, no one raises the hood at a gas station. I do --
> but I do out of habit as and old motorcycle/sports cars enthusiast
> dating back to the 50s. Heck the 64 XKE I had back in the 60s would use
> around a quart every couple hundred miles or so-- and it held 10 qts as
> I recall. So, I carried my own oil. And, today everything is hidden
> under a wad of plastic shielding.


people still check under the hood at gas stations. they don't do it as
often because cars are better and most people are in the habit of
checking MUCH less frequently, but it's the place to do it.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08 Jun 2010, 06:47 pm
tww1491
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: oil level reading - simple logic



"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:4ZydnXtCuov62pPRnZ2dnUVZ_r2dnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> On 06/08/2010 03:48 AM, tww1491 wrote:
>>
>>
>> "ACAR" <dimndsonmywndshld@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1139da92-8da8-4f30-8781-0c61203dc954@k39g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jun 7, 2:08 pm, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>> imagine this...
>>>
>>> someone raises a hood at a self serve gas station!
>>>
>>> Imagine this...'cause nobody does it.
>>>
>>>
>>>

>> From what I have seen, no one raises the hood at a gas station. I do --
>> but I do out of habit as and old motorcycle/sports cars enthusiast
>> dating back to the 50s. Heck the 64 XKE I had back in the 60s would use
>> around a quart every couple hundred miles or so-- and it held 10 qts as
>> I recall. So, I carried my own oil. And, today everything is hidden
>> under a wad of plastic shielding.

>
> people still check under the hood at gas stations. they don't do it as
> often because cars are better and most people are in the habit of checking
> MUCH less frequently, but it's the place to do it.


Agree it is the right place.
>
>
> --
> nomina rutrum rutrum


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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 09 Jun 2010, 10:43 am
C. E. White
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: oil level reading - simple logic


"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:bY-dnfbPq_kzqJDRnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net...

> now, since you're trying to be practical about this, and you want
> something that's easy to do and which will account for all these
> variations, how are you going to calibrate an oil dipstick? are you
> going to calibrate it to be read at -30C ambient? how about +50C
> ambient? after being stood overnight? like all taxi fleets are
> going to take a vehicle off the road for 8 hours just to read the
> oil level? how about a 30 slope, sideways? /all/ driveways are
> like that, right?


This comment got me thinking. What does happen to the dip stick
reading solely as a reult of a major temperature change. As a rough
model, I assumed a square steel oil pan, with a horizontal surface
area of roughly 6 inches by 8 inches. At 20 degree C (68 F), the depth
of oil in the pan would be approximately 7.45 inches. At -40 degrees C
(-40 F) the depth of oil in the pan would be 7.18 inches. At +40
degree C (104 F) the depth of oil in the pan would be approximately
7.54 inches. I did figure in the change in the horizontal area of the
pan becasue of the temperature change, but it is trival compared to
the change in the volume of the oil becasue of the termperature
change. Of course the relation ship between the dip stick and pan
would also change with temperature, but only slightly. This can be a
complicated calucaltion since it could depend on the angle of the dip
stick, any material differences etc. In the most trivial case
(everything steel and the dip stick perpendicular to the bottom of the
pan), the posiiton of the bottom of the dip stick relative to the
bottom of the pan would be essentially unchanged (assuming it is
nominally almost touching the bottom of the pan).

So it seems to me that you cannot ignore the effect of temperature on
the measurement of oil level if you are trying to use this method to
estimate oil consumption. If you live in a very cold place and check
the oil when the engine and oil are dead cold, and then check it again
after you have gotten the oil to operating temeprature, but allowed
the oil to drain back to the pan, then the level could be over a half
an inch higher even though you have not added nor lost any actual oil.
I thought this was interesting. Even in a mild climate, the difference
between cold oil and hot oil could be significant (over 0.25 inches).
No wonder the "normal" range on a dipstick is so wide. I never thought
about this when checking the oil in my farm tractors (I have on that
holds 20 quarts of oil - and the oil gets very hot). Now I understand
why sometimes the oil level seems to go down over night even though
the tractor has not moved since I checked it at the end of the
previous days work. I always thought it should go up becasue of the
slow drain back of oil to the sump. Live and learn.

Ed


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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 09 Jun 2010, 11:36 am
jim
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: oil level reading - simple logic



"C. E. White" wrote:

> "jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:bY-dnfbPq_kzqJDRnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
> > now, since you're trying to be practical about this, and you want
> > something that's easy to do and which will account for all these
> > variations, how are you going to calibrate an oil dipstick? are you
> > going to calibrate it to be read at -30C ambient? how about +50C
> > ambient? after being stood overnight? like all taxi fleets are
> > going to take a vehicle off the road for 8 hours just to read the
> > oil level? how about a 30 slope, sideways? /all/ driveways are
> > like that, right?

>
> This comment got me thinking. What does happen to the dip stick
> reading solely as a reult of a major temperature change. As a rough
> model, I assumed a square steel oil pan, with a horizontal surface
> area of roughly 6 inches by 8 inches. At 20 degree C (68 F), the depth
> of oil in the pan would be approximately 7.45 inches. At -40 degrees C
> (-40 F) the depth of oil in the pan would be 7.18 inches. At +40
> degree C (104 F) the depth of oil in the pan would be approximately
> 7.54 inches. I did figure in the change in the horizontal area of the
> pan becasue of the temperature change, but it is trival compared to
> the change in the volume of the oil becasue of the termperature
> change. Of course the relation ship between the dip stick and pan
> would also change with temperature, but only slightly. This can be a
> complicated calucaltion since it could depend on the angle of the dip
> stick, any material differences etc. In the most trivial case
> (everything steel and the dip stick perpendicular to the bottom of the
> pan), the posiiton of the bottom of the dip stick relative to the
> bottom of the pan would be essentially unchanged (assuming it is
> nominally almost touching the bottom of the pan).
>
> So it seems to me that you cannot ignore the effect of temperature on
> the measurement of oil level if you are trying to use this method to
> estimate oil consumption. If you live in a very cold place and check
> the oil when the engine and oil are dead cold, and then check it again
> after you have gotten the oil to operating temeprature, but allowed
> the oil to drain back to the pan, then the level could be over a half
> an inch higher even though you have not added nor lost any actual oil.
> I thought this was interesting. Even in a mild climate, the difference
> between cold oil and hot oil could be significant (over 0.25 inches).
> No wonder the "normal" range on a dipstick is so wide. I never thought
> about this when checking the oil in my farm tractors (I have on that
> holds 20 quarts of oil - and the oil gets very hot).


Your numbers are not even close to right. You better check them and try
again. I didn't look up the coefficients or run the numbers but off the
top of my head I would give rough guess that .02" is the maximum you might
see due to thermal expansion/contraction for 7" of steel at those temps.
Twice that if you are talking aluminum.

-jim



> Now I understand
> why sometimes the oil level seems to go down over night even though
> the tractor has not moved since I checked it at the end of the
> previous days work. I always thought it should go up becasue of the
> slow drain back of oil to the sump. Live and learn.
>
> Ed


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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 09 Jun 2010, 12:53 pm
C. E. White
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: oil level reading - simple logic


"jim" <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt.net> wrote in message
news:mKednRH1e_mGXpLRnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@bright.net.. .
>
>
> "C. E. White" wrote:
>
>> "jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> news:bY-dnfbPq_kzqJDRnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>
>> > now, since you're trying to be practical about this, and you want
>> > something that's easy to do and which will account for all these
>> > variations, how are you going to calibrate an oil dipstick? are
>> > you
>> > going to calibrate it to be read at -30C ambient? how about
>> > +50C
>> > ambient? after being stood overnight? like all taxi fleets are
>> > going to take a vehicle off the road for 8 hours just to read the
>> > oil level? how about a 30 slope, sideways? /all/ driveways are
>> > like that, right?

>>
>> This comment got me thinking. What does happen to the dip stick
>> reading solely as a reult of a major temperature change. As a rough
>> model, I assumed a square steel oil pan, with a horizontal surface
>> area of roughly 6 inches by 8 inches. At 20 degree C (68 F), the
>> depth
>> of oil in the pan would be approximately 7.45 inches. At -40
>> degrees C
>> (-40 F) the depth of oil in the pan would be 7.18 inches. At +40
>> degree C (104 F) the depth of oil in the pan would be approximately
>> 7.54 inches. I did figure in the change in the horizontal area of
>> the
>> pan becasue of the temperature change, but it is trival compared to
>> the change in the volume of the oil becasue of the termperature
>> change. Of course the relation ship between the dip stick and pan
>> would also change with temperature, but only slightly. This can be
>> a
>> complicated calucaltion since it could depend on the angle of the
>> dip
>> stick, any material differences etc. In the most trivial case
>> (everything steel and the dip stick perpendicular to the bottom of
>> the
>> pan), the posiiton of the bottom of the dip stick relative to the
>> bottom of the pan would be essentially unchanged (assuming it is
>> nominally almost touching the bottom of the pan).
>>
>> So it seems to me that you cannot ignore the effect of temperature
>> on
>> the measurement of oil level if you are trying to use this method
>> to
>> estimate oil consumption. If you live in a very cold place and
>> check
>> the oil when the engine and oil are dead cold, and then check it
>> again
>> after you have gotten the oil to operating temeprature, but allowed
>> the oil to drain back to the pan, then the level could be over a
>> half
>> an inch higher even though you have not added nor lost any actual
>> oil.
>> I thought this was interesting. Even in a mild climate, the
>> difference
>> between cold oil and hot oil could be significant (over 0.25
>> inches).
>> No wonder the "normal" range on a dipstick is so wide. I never
>> thought
>> about this when checking the oil in my farm tractors (I have on
>> that
>> holds 20 quarts of oil - and the oil gets very hot).

>
> Your numbers are not even close to right. You better check them and
> try
> again. I didn't look up the coefficients or run the numbers but off
> the
> top of my head I would give rough guess that .02" is the maximum you
> might
> see due to thermal expansion/contraction for 7" of steel at those
> temps.
> Twice that if you are talking aluminum.
>
> -jim


OK, but how about what happens to the oil!

Did you read the line that said " I did figure in the change in the
horizontal area of the pan becasue of the temperature change, but it
is trival compared to the change in the volume of the oil becasue of
the termperature change."

In other words, I dismissed the exapnsion/contraction of the actual
steel as a factor. It is the change in density of oil with temeprature
that matters! Look up the numbers for that. I'd be interested in
hearing what you find. Here is what I used for the density of the oil
versus temeprature:

Oil Temp Oil Density
Degree C kg^m^3
-40 923
-30 917
-20 911
0 899
20 888
40 876
60 864
80 852
100 840
120 829
140 817
150 810

The 0 to 150 degrees came from a table for "motor oil." I extrapolated
backwards for the 0 to -40. The result are probably not exact for any
particualr motor oil, but the principal should work - unless I made a
error in calculation. Check my theory.....

Assume that at 20 C you have 6 quarts of oil. That is roughly 5.04 kg
of oil and requires a volume of 0.005678 cubic meters. At +100
degrees, the same weight of oil, presents 0.00600 cubic meters. The
area of the pan has changed very litte. Assuming a pan with a 0.15
meter x 0.20 meter size, the area of the bottom of the pan is 0.03
square meters. At 20 C this means the oil must be 0.1892 m deep
(7.45"). At 100 C, this means that the oil must be 0.20 m deep
(7.87"). This is adifference of 0.42". See anything wrong with my
calculation? If you include the expanison of the steel then the
difference drops to 0.40". The effect of the linear thermal
coefficient of expansion for stee is small, but not negligible.
However, since I was just doing a rough estimate, it is not that
important.

Ed


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