Honda Car Forum

"K-town" <jdu52580@carolina.stopspam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:WV9rd.23969$Mu3.1347292@twister.southeast.rr. com...
> Thanx for all the advice, folks. I appreciate it. I'll vote for saving
> money and stick with regular unleaded (87 octane) from now on. On this
> note, I have one other question:

> Does gasoline lose its potency if it sits
> for awhile?

yes. it will sour, turning into a substance not unlike varnish. but this
can take a long time. stale gas is a problem when you take your snowblower
out after 10 months of dormancy.

>The reason I ask is because I notice that when my tank runs
> almost on "E" and I refuel, my car seems to be more responsive and run a
> little smoother. Does a fuller tank cause better fuel delivery somehow,
or
> what? (I'm thinking the level of fuel in the tank shouldn't
matter...that's
> what a fuel pressure regulator is for...to keep the fuel pressure
constant)
> Why does it seem to run a little better right after I refuel, regardless
of
> brand of gas?

it just seems to run better. at least as far as the gas goes. you might
other motor issues though. i cant think of any, but as far as the gasoline
goes, it is not going to cause any difference between weekly fill ups.

> Thanks again! :-)
>
> Jonathan
>
>

am i not supposed to flame this gentleman shagnasty?

please do tell us all. you can be as adamant as you want but it wont make
you right. i am anxiously awaiting you to insert foot deeply into mouth.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-D0A9CD.17291930112004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <1101848317.Jz0aCVvlooIblociTKf9mA@teranews>,
> "Joe Lang" <wjablonski@trcsolutions.comREMove> wrote:
>
> > using an octane over your requirements does not waste fuel. it
> > does not decrease efficiancy or power or anything.
>
> um, yes, it's less efficient.
>

first, i aplogize. there is alot of bs about octane on the NG's, and it
seems nobody can bother to study the friggin topic, just rehash what some
lunatic once said. and since i am generally not any more informed than the
usual newspaper reading kind, i do get a bit peeved when the topic is about
something i actually know very well.



> tell me more about combustion chamber design. as i understand it,
> morphology influces gas flow, density, turbulence and pressure wave
> propagation. this in turn does affect the stability of the resulting
> cylinder charge on compression, hence octane matters.

im no mechanical engineer. i dont think we disagree on this point. it is
important to consider that there are variables as to how knock will be
induced. octane rating of fuel and compression are what determine knock,
and to a much lesser extent engine design. i do not think that there is
much room left in the combustion chamber design department for improvements
to be made. assume that the theoretical engine has been designed with an
efficient combustion chamber. the topic is secondary in modern engines, and
we have already spent too much time discussing it.

>i'm /not/ an
> expert on this stuff joe, but i do have some books on the subject, so
> please, enlighten me further.

it is a big topic, octane and knock. but this is not the most complex
science ever studied. review some of the work done by thomas midgely.
gasoline has been researched to death. there is no way in hell anyone is
ever going to make an observation about gasoline and post it on the internet
that has not already been said 1000 times before at a refinery lab.

> and please, let's keep the flame limited to the spark-induced variety.

for you, sure.

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message news:<KImdncyNp_nmjjDcRVn-jA@sedona.net>...
> "Cleverlever" <cleverlever99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3fffe09a.0411291847.134f3f5d@posting.google.c om...
> > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> > news:<DNKdnZm-a6KEUzTcRVn-pA@sedona.net>...
> >> High octane fuel is for high compression engines, to prevent detonation
> >> (ping). Your owner's manual will tell you what grade to use - probably 87
> >> octane. Rather than going to a premium grade (which, it's true, often has
> >> higher detergency), stick with the recommended octane. Some brands have
> >> more
> >> detergents than others, and they advertise that. (I like Shell/Texaco and
> >> Chevron.) I had a Nissan 300ZX that would get balky - the clutch would
> >> start
> >> to feel grabby - if I ran 76 in it for a couple months but would
> >> straighten
> >> right out about halfway through a tank of Texaco. My other cars never
> >> seem
> >> to care.
> >>
> >> We also have a Toyota Prius, and on the Prius newsgroup others have
> >> warned
> >> me it won't run right and will even set the "check engine" light if
> >> premium
> >> grades are used. (The Prius has what Toyota calls a "modified
> >> Atkinson/Miller cycle" engine - it uses valve timing to tame the 13:1
> >> expansion ratio to a variable compression ratio.)
> >>
> >> Mike
> >
> > Hey Mike
> > I thought you might be interested in some test that were run with high
> > octane E85 in a prius. Check out page 10 at
> > http://www.creedproject.org/stream_v7n2.pdf and observe a 20% increase
> > in power when the "Forbidden" fuel was tested.
> > I have made a bunch of post at The Temple of VTEC about this subject.
> > I post as cleverlever. You also might be interested in my patent
> > 4,961,406 which demonstates how to change the burn rate of a given
> > fuel at low rpm
>
> An interesting link. Thanks!
>
> My understanding is that octane is not specifically about burn rate, but
> about ignition point. If the mixture ignites because of the heat of
> compression, or if the compression heating is high enough that the reaction
> propagates by the pressure front instead of the flame front, the fuel
> mixture changes from a low explosive to a high explosive.
> See http://www.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm
>
> Mike
You make valid points. I believe thats called auto ignition. My
comments are confined to application of variable valve timing and high
expansion ratios. I would appreciate feed back on my patent 4,961,406
which can vary the burn rate of fuel at low rpm under variations of
load.
Heres an experiment for prius owners. Run your tank low and put in a
small amount of E85 and see if you feel a power increase as per
earlier mentioned web site. If there is a problem you can just fill
the rest of the tank with conventional fuel and dilute the E85.
Experiment should cost less than one dollar

In article <1101913823.g6TzluztN6SLpItJgTT+HQ@teranews>,
"Joe Lang" <wjablonski@trcsolutions.comREMove> wrote:

> am i not supposed to flame this gentleman shagnasty?
>
> please do tell us all. you can be as adamant as you want but it wont make
> you right. i am anxiously awaiting you to insert foot deeply into mouth.
>
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-D0A9CD.17291930112004@text.usenetserver.com...
> > In article <1101848317.Jz0aCVvlooIblociTKf9mA@teranews>,
> > "Joe Lang" <wjablonski@trcsolutions.comREMove> wrote:
> >
> > > using an octane over your requirements does not waste fuel. it
> > > does not decrease efficiancy or power or anything.
> >
> > um, yes, it's less efficient.
> >

Less energy is available per pound of gasoline run through the engine.

"Cleverlever" <cleverlever99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3fffe09a.0412010815.7fe4c84d@posting.google.c om...
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> news:<KImdncyNp_nmjjDcRVn-jA@sedona.net>...
>> "Cleverlever" <cleverlever99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:3fffe09a.0411291847.134f3f5d@posting.google.c om...
>> > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
>> > news:<DNKdnZm-a6KEUzTcRVn-pA@sedona.net>...
>> >> High octane fuel is for high compression engines, to prevent
>> >> detonation
>> >> (ping). Your owner's manual will tell you what grade to use - probably
>> >> 87
>> >> octane. Rather than going to a premium grade (which, it's true, often
>> >> has
>> >> higher detergency), stick with the recommended octane. Some brands
>> >> have
>> >> more
>> >> detergents than others, and they advertise that. (I like Shell/Texaco
>> >> and
>> >> Chevron.) I had a Nissan 300ZX that would get balky - the clutch would
>> >> start
>> >> to feel grabby - if I ran 76 in it for a couple months but would
>> >> straighten
>> >> right out about halfway through a tank of Texaco. My other cars never
>> >> seem
>> >> to care.
>> >>
>> >> We also have a Toyota Prius, and on the Prius newsgroup others have
>> >> warned
>> >> me it won't run right and will even set the "check engine" light if
>> >> premium
>> >> grades are used. (The Prius has what Toyota calls a "modified
>> >> Atkinson/Miller cycle" engine - it uses valve timing to tame the 13:1
>> >> expansion ratio to a variable compression ratio.)
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >
>> > Hey Mike
>> > I thought you might be interested in some test that were run with high
>> > octane E85 in a prius. Check out page 10 at
>> > http://www.creedproject.org/stream_v7n2.pdf and observe a 20% increase
>> > in power when the "Forbidden" fuel was tested.
>> > I have made a bunch of post at The Temple of VTEC about this subject.
>> > I post as cleverlever. You also might be interested in my patent
>> > 4,961,406 which demonstates how to change the burn rate of a given
>> > fuel at low rpm
>>
>> An interesting link. Thanks!
>>
>> My understanding is that octane is not specifically about burn rate, but
>> about ignition point. If the mixture ignites because of the heat of
>> compression, or if the compression heating is high enough that the
>> reaction
>> propagates by the pressure front instead of the flame front, the fuel
>> mixture changes from a low explosive to a high explosive.
>> See http://www.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm
>>
>> Mike
> You make valid points. I believe thats called auto ignition. My
> comments are confined to application of variable valve timing and high
> expansion ratios. I would appreciate feed back on my patent 4,961,406
> which can vary the burn rate of fuel at low rpm under variations of
> load.
> Heres an experiment for prius owners. Run your tank low and put in a
> small amount of E85 and see if you feel a power increase as per
> earlier mentioned web site. If there is a problem you can just fill
> the rest of the tank with conventional fuel and dilute the E85.
> Experiment should cost less than one dollar

I wouldn't expect to experience an increase or decrease in power. The ICE is
completely under the control of the hybrid system, and the hybrid computer
commands power from the ICE or the battery to suit its needs. Some have
asked if there are modifications to increase the Prius performance, and
there are not - for that very reason. In fact, with the shifter in park the
accelerator can be floored and the engine will only gradually increase speed
to about 2000 rpm top.

Mike

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-B76C03.04441801122004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <WV9rd.23969$Mu3.1347292@twister.southeast.rr.com> ,
> "K-town" <jdu52580@carolina.stopspam.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Does gasoline lose its potency if it sits
>> for awhile? The reason I ask is because I notice that when my tank runs
>> almost on "E" and I refuel, my car seems to be more responsive and run a
>> little smoother. Does a fuller tank cause better fuel delivery somehow,
>> or
>> what? (I'm thinking the level of fuel in the tank shouldn't
>> matter...that's
>> what a fuel pressure regulator is for...to keep the fuel pressure
>> constant)
>> Why does it seem to run a little better right after I refuel, regardless
>> of
>> brand of gas?
>
> If you're running your tank out every week or so like normal drivers,
> gasoline doesn't lose anything. It's in your mind.
>
> If you're filling up every 6 months or so, there could be a problem.
> Gas does get old.

I refuel about once a week. It probably is just a fluke, but there is a
noticeable difference. It's primarily just slightly better throttle
responsiveness, not an increase in horsepower. I guess the reason as to why
will just remain a mystery. ;-)

Thanks for your input, to both you and "joe lang".

Jonathan

> Less energy is available per pound of gasoline run through the engine.

thanks.
measure it any way you want.
gasoline has the same energy regardless of octane. (and where on earth is
gasoline measured by the pound?)

this is perhaps the most fundamental constant in petroleum study. i will
point this out once more for you Mr Shagnasty in case you are bitter at
being told you are just wrong.

all gasoline has the same energy per volume. always. period.

octane is not a measure of energy. if you are unaware of this basic fact,
you should not be posting advice about octane, rather you should sit in your
chair, stare at your computer, and learn. now go, go. go away and play
video games until mom calls you for dinner.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-D8F867.18101201122004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <1101913823.g6TzluztN6SLpItJgTT+HQ@teranews>,
> "Joe Lang" <wjablonski@trcsolutions.comREMove> wrote:
>
> > am i not supposed to flame this gentleman shagnasty?
> >
> > please do tell us all. you can be as adamant as you want but it wont
make
> > you right. i am anxiously awaiting you to insert foot deeply into
mouth.
> >
> > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> > news:elmop-D0A9CD.17291930112004@text.usenetserver.com...
> > > In article <1101848317.Jz0aCVvlooIblociTKf9mA@teranews>,
> > > "Joe Lang" <wjablonski@trcsolutions.comREMove> wrote:
> > >
> > > > using an octane over your requirements does not waste fuel. it
> > > > does not decrease efficiancy or power or anything.
> > >
> > > um, yes, it's less efficient.
> > >
>

>

In article <1102018988.rwOjmrNjliG5N5DR5Prtkw@teranews>,
"Joe Lang" <wjablonski@trcsolutions.comREMove> wrote:

> > Less energy is available per pound of gasoline run through the engine.
>
> thanks.
> measure it any way you want.
> gasoline has the same energy regardless of octane. (and where on earth is
> gasoline measured by the pound?)
>
> this is perhaps the most fundamental constant in petroleum study. i will
> point this out once more for you Mr Shagnasty in case you are bitter at
> being told you are just wrong.
>
> all gasoline has the same energy per volume. always. period.
>
> octane is not a measure of energy. if you are unaware of this basic fact,
> you should not be posting advice about octane, rather you should sit in your
> chair, stare at your computer, and learn. now go, go. go away and play
> video games until mom calls you for dinner.

Quit top-posting.

Do you dispute this sentence:

"A gasoline with a higher octane rating will produce less BTUs when
burned than a lower octane gasoline."

If you do, then I *know* you're an idiot.

(For the record: I did not write that sentence. I copied it...)

Joe Lang wrote:

> all gasoline has the same energy per volume. always. period.

That is simply not true. Gasoline is a mixture of a large number of
components, and the mixture varies from grade to grade, station to
station, week to week and from place to place. One example is that the
winter formula with extra oxygenates contain several percent less energy
pr gallon than the summer variety.

Adding ethanol to gasoline will increase the octane rating and decrease
the energy content.


>
> octane is not a measure of energy. if you are unaware of this basic fact,
> you should not be posting advice about octane, rather you should sit in your
> chair, stare at your computer, and learn. now go, go. go away and play
> video games until mom calls you for dinner.
>
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-D8F867.18101201122004@text.usenetserver.com...
> > In article <1101913823.g6TzluztN6SLpItJgTT+HQ@teranews>,
> > "Joe Lang" <wjablonski@trcsolutions.comREMove> wrote:
> >
> > > am i not supposed to flame this gentleman shagnasty?
> > >
> > > please do tell us all. you can be as adamant as you want but it wont
> make
> > > you right. i am anxiously awaiting you to insert foot deeply into
> mouth.
> > >
> > > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> > > news:elmop-D0A9CD.17291930112004@text.usenetserver.com...
> > > > In article <1101848317.Jz0aCVvlooIblociTKf9mA@teranews>,
> > > > "Joe Lang" <wjablonski@trcsolutions.comREMove> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > using an octane over your requirements does not waste fuel. it
> > > > > does not decrease efficiancy or power or anything.
> > > >
> > > > um, yes, it's less efficient.
> > > >
> >
>
> >