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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 25 Mar 2010, 07:53 pm
Tegger
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Default Toyota's electronic throttle, and..

....just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually impossible.

<http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html>

The author does not mention it, but the NHTSA closely regulates the design
of the electronic throttle and its firmware. It is, by design, not possible
to "hack" into the firmware in order to modify or disable it.

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Tegger

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 25 Mar 2010, 08:02 pm
dbu''
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Default Re: Toyota's electronic throttle, and..

In article <Xns9D46D48D312C4tegger@208.90.168.18>,
Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote:

> ...just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually impossible.
>
> <http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html>
>
> The author does not mention it, but the NHTSA closely regulates the design
> of the electronic throttle and its firmware. It is, by design, not possible
> to "hack" into the firmware in order to modify or disable it.


This is true to be sure. The fed has regulated and are culpable in any
court action. They know it too. Although the fed cannot be sued
directly, they can be called as witness. They would not like that much.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 25 Mar 2010, 08:16 pm
chuckcar
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Toyota's electronic throttle, and..

Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in
news:Xns9D46D48D312C4tegger@208.90.168.18:

> ...just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually impossible.
>
> <http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html>
>
> The author does not mention it, but the NHTSA closely regulates the
> design of the electronic throttle and its firmware. It is, by design,
> not possible to "hack" into the firmware in order to modify or disable
> it.
>

No. You'd have to have to have the pin that enables erasing/rewriting of
the EEPROM/EAPROM IC used and the hardware (electric and electronic) to
support it to be able to do it. One *could* however physically take the
ROM out and completely rewrite it, if you could rebuild the module you
destroy by doing this. That is entirely possible and anyone could do it
with enough technical knowledge, ability and the right pieces. Anyone
can buy a PROM programmer.

That's all beyond the scope of such an article of course, but it shows
what is involved in doing it sucessfully.

I'd bet good money that all race cars have a connector for just this
purpose.

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(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 25 Mar 2010, 08:26 pm
Ed White
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Toyota's electronic throttle, and..

On Mar 25, 8:53*pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> ...just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually impossible.
>
> <http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html>
>
> The author does not mention it, but the NHTSA closely regulates the design
> of the electronic throttle and its firmware. It is, by design, not possible
> to "hack" into the firmware in order to modify or disable it.
>
> --
> Tegger


The article was very good and I believe the conclusions are correct
(i.e., it is not the electronics). I do wonder about your statement.
Anything to back it up? Exactly how does NHTSA closely regulate the
design? The firmware is in the ECM, and people are constantly screwing
with that. My son has some sort of programer that allows him to screw
up the ECM in his Mustang (and I do mean screw it up). I looked at the
Toyota shop manual for the RAV4 and it appears to me all the throttle
control stuff is handled by the ECM, so I can't see how that is any
more secure than any of the other firmware.

Ed
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 25 Mar 2010, 08:51 pm
Tegger
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Toyota's electronic throttle, and..

chuckcar <chuck@nil.car> wrote in news:Xns9D46D713F7AC1chuck@127.0.0.1:

> Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in
> news:Xns9D46D48D312C4tegger@208.90.168.18:
>
>> ...just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually impossible.
>>
>> <http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html>
>>
>> The author does not mention it, but the NHTSA closely regulates the
>> design of the electronic throttle and its firmware. It is, by design,
>> not possible to "hack" into the firmware in order to modify or disable
>> it.
>>

> No. You'd have to have to have the pin that enables erasing/rewriting of
> the EEPROM/EAPROM IC used and the hardware (electric and electronic) to
> support it to be able to do it. One *could* however physically take the
> ROM out and completely rewrite it, if you could rebuild the module you
> destroy by doing this. That is entirely possible and anyone could do it
> with enough technical knowledge, ability and the right pieces. Anyone
> can buy a PROM programmer.




Of course. And you could take a roll of sheet steel and turn it into a car
body; you could turn a steel billet into a fully-automatic firearm; you
could turn a bag of lawn fertilizer into a bomb.



>
> That's all beyond the scope of such an article of course, but it shows
> what is involved in doing it sucessfully.




Surely, but nobody's alleging tampering. Instead the allegations are of
defects from the factory, and that's where the silliness comes in.



--
Tegger

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 25 Mar 2010, 09:00 pm
Tegger
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Toyota's electronic throttle, and..

Ed White <ce.white3@gmail.com> wrote in
news:bb31d261-4a17-4139-9db8-0d14c4b8d873@r27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 25, 8:53*pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>> ...just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually impossible.
>>
>> <http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html>
>>
>> The author does not mention it, but the NHTSA closely regulates the
>> design of the electronic throttle and its firmware. It is, by design,
>> not possible to "hack" into the firmware in order to modify or
>> disable it.
>>
>> --
>> Tegger

>
> The article was very good and I believe the conclusions are correct
> (i.e., it is not the electronics). I do wonder about your statement.
> Anything to back it up?




A Toyota MDT told me this. He and his cohorts have received
extensive factory training on the electronic throttle as part of the normal
dealership-tech training. And they've had some very intensive additions
to that training on account of the recent controversies



> Exactly how does NHTSA closely regulate the design?




Couldn't tell you. I can only relate what I've been told by my /very/
reliable source: The electronic-throttle firmware is NOT modifiable; its
circuitry is independent of anything else that might control the engine.


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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 25 Mar 2010, 11:40 pm
chuckcar
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Toyota's electronic throttle, and..

Ed White <ce.white3@gmail.com> wrote in
news:bb31d261-4a17-4139-9db8-0d14c4b8d873@r27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 25, 8:53*pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>> ...just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually impossible.
>>
>> <http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html>
>>
>> The author does not mention it, but the NHTSA closely regulates the
>> desig

> n
>> of the electronic throttle and its firmware. It is, by design, not
>> possib

> le
>> to "hack" into the firmware in order to modify or disable it.
>>
>> --
>> Tegger

>
> The article was very good and I believe the conclusions are correct
> (i.e., it is not the electronics). I do wonder about your statement.
> Anything to back it up? Exactly how does NHTSA closely regulate the
> design? The firmware is in the ECM, and people are constantly screwing
> with that. My son has some sort of programer that allows him to screw
> up the ECM in his Mustang (and I do mean screw it up). I looked at the
> Toyota shop manual for the RAV4 and it appears to me all the throttle
> control stuff is handled by the ECM, so I can't see how that is any
> more secure than any of the other firmware.
>

What you're talking about here is talking about is on the auto shows
fixup shows such as they have on SPEED TV. You're not actually erasing
the EPROM and then putting new machine language into it replacing what was
originally there. You're changing variables such as valve timing and so
on. This difference may only be apparent to people who *have* written
computer programs like myself. It can of course damage an vehicle just
as removing a rev limiter or boosting the engine with too much nitrous
will do. Nothing more.


--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 25 Mar 2010, 11:41 pm
chuckcar
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Toyota's electronic throttle, and..

Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in
news:Xns9D46DE616F236tegger@208.90.168.18:

> chuckcar <chuck@nil.car> wrote in
> news:Xns9D46D713F7AC1chuck@127.0.0.1:
>
>> Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in
>> news:Xns9D46D48D312C4tegger@208.90.168.18:
>>
>>> ...just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually impossible.
>>>
>>> <http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html>
>>>
>>> The author does not mention it, but the NHTSA closely regulates the
>>> design of the electronic throttle and its firmware. It is, by
>>> design, not possible to "hack" into the firmware in order to modify
>>> or disable it.
>>>

>> No. You'd have to have to have the pin that enables erasing/rewriting
>> of the EEPROM/EAPROM IC used and the hardware (electric and
>> electronic) to support it to be able to do it. One *could* however
>> physically take the ROM out and completely rewrite it, if you could
>> rebuild the module you destroy by doing this. That is entirely
>> possible and anyone could do it with enough technical knowledge,
>> ability and the right pieces. Anyone can buy a PROM programmer.

>
> Of course. And you could take a roll of sheet steel and turn it into a
> car body; you could turn a steel billet into a fully-automatic
> firearm; you could turn a bag of lawn fertilizer into a bomb.
>>

Yes, that was partially my point. The other part was that there simply
is no way to flash the ROM like some trojan would do to some internet
noobs router.

>> That's all beyond the scope of such an article of course, but it
>> shows what is involved in doing it sucessfully.

>
> Surely, but nobody's alleging tampering. Instead the allegations are
> of defects from the factory, and that's where the silliness comes in.
>

Perhaps, I'll reserve my judgement on that until I see some real
conclusions in this Toyota mess. It could easily be minor bugs in the
actual ROMS however. Extremely doubtful, but always a possibility.


--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 26 Mar 2010, 06:45 am
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Toyota's electronic throttle, and..

chuckcar <chuck@nil.car> wrote in news:Xns9D474BA4D988chuck@127.0.0.1:

> Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in
> news:Xns9D46DE616F236tegger@208.90.168.18:


>>
>> but nobody's alleging tampering. Instead the allegations are
>> of defects from the factory, and that's where the silliness comes in.
>>

> Perhaps, I'll reserve my judgement on that until I see some real
> conclusions in this Toyota mess. It could easily be minor bugs in the
> actual ROMS however. Extremely doubtful, but always a possibility.
>
>




Why do you keep setting a Followup to rec.autos.tech? I only crossposted to
three groups, all of which have had extensive discussions regarding this
matter, and all which I thought would benefit from a discussion of the
article I originally referenced (and which only Ed White seems to have
actually read).

<http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html>


--
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 26 Mar 2010, 05:30 pm
chuckcar
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Toyota's electronic throttle, and..

Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in
news:Xns9D474ED1BCD25tegger@208.90.168.18:

> chuckcar <chuck@nil.car> wrote in news:Xns9D474BA4D988chuck@127.0.0.1:
>
>> Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in
>> news:Xns9D46DE616F236tegger@208.90.168.18:

>
>>>
>>> but nobody's alleging tampering. Instead the allegations are
>>> of defects from the factory, and that's where the silliness comes
>>> in.
>>>

>> Perhaps, I'll reserve my judgement on that until I see some real
>> conclusions in this Toyota mess. It could easily be minor bugs in the
>> actual ROMS however. Extremely doubtful, but always a possibility.
>>
>>

>
>
>
> Why do you keep setting a Followup to rec.autos.tech?


Because I only read that group.

> I only
> crossposted to three groups, all of which have had extensive
> discussions regarding this matter, and all which I thought would
> benefit from a discussion of the article I originally referenced (and
> which only Ed White seems to have actually read).
>

To further explain, my newservers are touchy about posting to numerous
groups without using a follow-up header, so I frequently error on the
side of caution. However being only three groups, I will desist if you
prefer.


--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
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