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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 24 Mar 2010, 12:25 am
Bill
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Default Good troubleshooting chart/instructions?

Honda Experts,

Where can I find a good basic/overview troubleshooting chart for my
car?

I have a 97 Civic LX, with 220,000 miles. Yesterday it wouldn't start.
It does turn over normally. I was getting ready to leave work, 6pm.
The car started, backed up 5 feet, then died, and wouldn't start
again.

I have the 96-2000 service manual, but I can't find the basic
troubleshooting. It goes into detail on troubleshooting many parts;
VTEC troubleshooting, PGM-FI troubleshooting, etc, but doesn't seem to
have an overview, a starting point for the troubleshooting.

I'm wondering; should I start with buying a code reader? If so, do you
have experience with a particular one? I'd much prefer a low-cost one.
I see some OBD-II readers on Amazon for $40.

Then, where to start troubleshooting? Such as: disconnect fuel line,
turn over motor, see if gas squirts out, etc. Where can I find good
troubleshooting instructions for a Civic?

Thank you,
Bill
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 24 Mar 2010, 07:13 am
Tegger
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Good troubleshooting chart/instructions?

Bill <bill_activist@yahoo.com> wrote in news:f9e54d90-3db2-4ba3-87f7-
ce4dc4d47a4c@l24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:

> Honda Experts,
>
> Where can I find a good basic/overview troubleshooting chart for my
> car?
>
> I have a 97 Civic LX, with 220,000 miles. Yesterday it wouldn't start.
> It does turn over normally. I was getting ready to leave work, 6pm.
> The car started, backed up 5 feet, then died, and wouldn't start
> again.
>
> I have the 96-2000 service manual, but I can't find the basic
> troubleshooting. It goes into detail on troubleshooting many parts;
> VTEC troubleshooting, PGM-FI troubleshooting, etc, but doesn't seem to
> have an overview, a starting point for the troubleshooting.
>
> I'm wondering; should I start with buying a code reader? If so, do you
> have experience with a particular one? I'd much prefer a low-cost one.
> I see some OBD-II readers on Amazon for $40.
>
> Then, where to start troubleshooting? Such as: disconnect fuel line,
> turn over motor, see if gas squirts out, etc. Where can I find good
> troubleshooting instructions for a Civic?
>




1) Start with the Check Engine light (MIL). Does it behave as it should?
i - turn key to II, MIL illuminates, fuel pump runs for 2 sec
ii - MIL goes off, fuel pump shuts off
iii - Turn key to III; MIL remains off; fuel pump operates again
Any deviation from this points to a problem area.

2) When the car dies, do all the dash idiot-lights come on? If not, the
ignition switch is bad.

3) If you have a tach, does the needle jiggle just the tiniest bit when you
crank, or is it dead-still? If daed-still, the igniter is bad.

4) Check for spark at the plugs in the standard manner, when the engine
will crank but not start.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 24 Mar 2010, 07:54 am
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Good troubleshooting chart/instructions?

On 03/24/2010 05:13 AM, Tegger wrote:
> Bill<bill_activist@yahoo.com> wrote in news:f9e54d90-3db2-4ba3-87f7-
> ce4dc4d47a4c@l24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>
>> Honda Experts,
>>
>> Where can I find a good basic/overview troubleshooting chart for my
>> car?
>>
>> I have a 97 Civic LX, with 220,000 miles. Yesterday it wouldn't start.
>> It does turn over normally. I was getting ready to leave work, 6pm.
>> The car started, backed up 5 feet, then died, and wouldn't start
>> again.
>>
>> I have the 96-2000 service manual, but I can't find the basic
>> troubleshooting. It goes into detail on troubleshooting many parts;
>> VTEC troubleshooting, PGM-FI troubleshooting, etc, but doesn't seem to
>> have an overview, a starting point for the troubleshooting.
>>
>> I'm wondering; should I start with buying a code reader? If so, do you
>> have experience with a particular one? I'd much prefer a low-cost one.
>> I see some OBD-II readers on Amazon for $40.
>>
>> Then, where to start troubleshooting? Such as: disconnect fuel line,
>> turn over motor, see if gas squirts out, etc. Where can I find good
>> troubleshooting instructions for a Civic?
>>

>
>
>
> 1) Start with the Check Engine light (MIL). Does it behave as it should?
> i - turn key to II, MIL illuminates, fuel pump runs for 2 sec
> ii - MIL goes off, fuel pump shuts off
> iii - Turn key to III; MIL remains off; fuel pump operates again
> Any deviation from this points to a problem area.
>
> 2) When the car dies, do all the dash idiot-lights come on? If not, the
> ignition switch is bad.
>
> 3) If you have a tach, does the needle jiggle just the tiniest bit when you
> crank, or is it dead-still? If daed-still, the igniter is bad.
>
> 4) Check for spark at the plugs in the standard manner, when the engine
> will crank but not start.
>
>
>


first thing i'd check on this vehicle is the timing belt...

--
nomina rutrum rutrum
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 24 Mar 2010, 08:10 am
Clete
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Good troubleshooting chart/instructions?

On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 05:54:37 -0700, jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>On 03/24/2010 05:13 AM, Tegger wrote:
>> Bill<bill_activist@yahoo.com> wrote in news:f9e54d90-3db2-4ba3-87f7-
>> ce4dc4d47a4c@l24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> Honda Experts,
>>>
>>> Where can I find a good basic/overview troubleshooting chart for my
>>> car?
>>>
>>> I have a 97 Civic LX, with 220,000 miles. Yesterday it wouldn't start.
>>> It does turn over normally. I was getting ready to leave work, 6pm.
>>> The car started, backed up 5 feet, then died, and wouldn't start
>>> again.
>>>
>>> I have the 96-2000 service manual, but I can't find the basic
>>> troubleshooting. It goes into detail on troubleshooting many parts;
>>> VTEC troubleshooting, PGM-FI troubleshooting, etc, but doesn't seem to
>>> have an overview, a starting point for the troubleshooting.
>>>
>>> I'm wondering; should I start with buying a code reader? If so, do you
>>> have experience with a particular one? I'd much prefer a low-cost one.
>>> I see some OBD-II readers on Amazon for $40.
>>>
>>> Then, where to start troubleshooting? Such as: disconnect fuel line,
>>> turn over motor, see if gas squirts out, etc. Where can I find good
>>> troubleshooting instructions for a Civic?
>>>

>>
>>
>>
>> 1) Start with the Check Engine light (MIL). Does it behave as it should?
>> i - turn key to II, MIL illuminates, fuel pump runs for 2 sec
>> ii - MIL goes off, fuel pump shuts off
>> iii - Turn key to III; MIL remains off; fuel pump operates again
>> Any deviation from this points to a problem area.
>>
>> 2) When the car dies, do all the dash idiot-lights come on? If not, the
>> ignition switch is bad.
>>
>> 3) If you have a tach, does the needle jiggle just the tiniest bit when you
>> crank, or is it dead-still? If daed-still, the igniter is bad.
>>
>> 4) Check for spark at the plugs in the standard manner, when the engine
>> will crank but not start.
>>
>>
>>

>
>first thing i'd check on this vehicle is the timing belt...



Good call, but how does the OP (who obviously has limited ablilty , no
offense meant ) check this ?
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 24 Mar 2010, 08:12 am
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Good troubleshooting chart/instructions?

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:Q4CdnRFDwoQQljfWnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:


>
> first thing i'd check on this vehicle is the timing belt...
>



And if it had slipped or broken, you'd notice a big difference in how it
cranks.

To the OP: DO NOT pull the distributor cap to "see if the rotor turns".
Remove the oil filler cap and look inside to see if the cams are turning
when you crank.

To check cam/crank alignment, the valve cover needs to be removed.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 24 Mar 2010, 08:13 am
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Good troubleshooting chart/instructions?

Clete <lecllaij@halifax.ca> wrote in
news:0i3kq51l90ir7rflq9e3fjkpcq5mdbrigi@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 05:54:37 -0700, jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>


>>>

>>
>>first thing i'd check on this vehicle is the timing belt...

>
>
> Good call, but how does the OP (who obviously has limited ablilty , no
> offense meant ) check this ?
>



I've been meaning to completely rewrite this page, but it's still useful as
it is:
<http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/startproblems.html>


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 24 Mar 2010, 02:54 pm
Joe Sixpack
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Good troubleshooting chart/instructions?

Bill wrote:
> Honda Experts,


> Then, where to start troubleshooting? Such as: disconnect fuel line,
> turn over motor, see if gas squirts out, etc. Where can I find good
> troubleshooting instructions for a Civic?
>
> Thank you,
> Bill


Unless you have reason to suspect a specific component, it's often best
to check the easy things first.

Check the fuses, particularly those associated with fuel pumps,
injectors, and the ignition system.

Pull a plug, re-attach pug wire, lay plug on metal surface, crank, look
for strong spark.

Can you see any valve gear through the oil fill hole? If so, crank and
look for motion, indicating that the cam drive belt is still in one
piece. If you can't see much through the hole, you may need to pull the
valve cover, or a cam belt cover, whichever is easier. A useful trick
is to pull all the plugs (to kill compression), put the car in neutral,
then use a wrench on the power steering or alternator pulley bolt to
slowly turn the engine.

Most fuel injector rails have a bleed bolt that you can loosen. (Crank
car to pressurize first.) If doing so doesn't get you a few tablespoons
of fuel, the pump, filter, or pressure regulating system may be borked.
(You don't want to disconnect the whole line!)

Many auto parts stores will loan you a code reader for free.

Good luck!
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 24 Mar 2010, 07:01 pm
Bill
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Good troubleshooting chart/instructions?

Thanks to everyone for your great tips! This is very helpful.

Tegger, thanks:
1) idiot lights on-normal
2) check engine light goes on, then off, so I think that's normal
3) fuel pump, it's hard for me to tell. I do hear a click, like a
solenoid activating, but I'm not clear if I hear the fuel pump. This
is in the gas tank, right? Maybe I should sit in the back seat, while
a friend turns on the ignition.

4) The valves do move-Thanks for that tip, since I do need to replace
the timing belt soon, and was wondering about that.

5) Tach seems to be still, when I try to start, I don't see any
movement. You mention an "igniter,"

Can you tell me more about this part? Is there another name for it? I
can not find that word in my service manual.

Your troubleshooting page is very good. I should also try the "Spray
starting fluid" technique.

thank you,
Bill

On Mar 24, 6:13*am, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> Clete <lecll...@halifax.ca> wrote innews:0i3kq51l90ir7rflq9e3fjkpcq5mdbrigi@4ax.com:
>
> > On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 05:54:37 -0700, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

>
> >>first thing i'd check on this vehicle is the timing belt...

>
> > Good call, but how does the OP (who obviously has limited ablilty , no
> > offense meant ) check this ?

>
> I've been meaning to completely rewrite this page, but it's still useful as
> it is:
> <http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/startproblems.html>
>
> --
> Tegger

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 24 Mar 2010, 07:50 pm
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Good troubleshooting chart/instructions?

Bill <bill_activist@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:fb7ba0c0-14f5-494d-9e20-85a05a92b1c2@f14g2000pre.googlegroups.com:

> Thanks to everyone for your great tips! This is very helpful.
>
> Tegger, thanks:
> 1) idiot lights on-normal
> 2) check engine light goes on, then off, so I think that's normal
> 3) fuel pump, it's hard for me to tell. I do hear a click, like a
> solenoid activating, but I'm not clear if I hear the fuel pump. This
> is in the gas tank, right? Maybe I should sit in the back seat, while
> a friend turns on the ignition.



Yes. While the MIL is on, the pump will hum/buzz/whine. Another way of
listening is to remove the gas filler cap and put an ear there while
somebody else turns the key to "II" and then to "III".


>
> 4) The valves do move-Thanks for that tip, since I do need to replace
> the timing belt soon, and was wondering about that.
>
> 5) Tach seems to be still, when I try to start, I don't see any
> movement. You mention an "igniter,"




Oho... this is absolutely critical. And you need to watch that needle like
the proverbial hawk while you crank.

"Seems" isn't good enough; you need to /verify/. If the tach needle is
indeed dead-still while cranking, then the igniter is dead.


>
> Can you tell me more about this part? Is there another name for it? I
> can not find that word in my service manual.




It's also called the Ignition Control Module, or ICM.

It's unfortunate that you never actually checked out my site, otherwise
you'd have found this:
<http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/startproblems.html#badigniter>
The links are right at the very very top. It's another page I've been
meaning to rewrite...

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 27 Mar 2010, 12:59 am
Bill
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Good troubleshooting chart/instructions?

Tegger,

Thanks for your troubleshooting and repair advice. I followed it, and
bought an ignition control module and a coil, just in case. I
installed them both and am getting the same thing.

Actually, the very first time I tried to start my car, after
installing both new parts, it did fire a little, and I thought it was
going to start. Then it stopped firing. Now, I'm getting the same
symptoms;

Car turns over, with normal chuga-chuga-chuga noise
Tach needle does not move

Do you have suggestions as to the next most likely component/problem?
Or do you think the new ignition control module could be defective?

Thank you,
Bill

On Mar 24, 5:50*pm, Tegger wrote:
> Bill <bill_activ...@yahoo.com> wrote in googlegroups.com:
>
> > Thanks to everyone for your great tips! This is very helpful.

>
> > Tegger, thanks:
> > 1) idiot lights on-normal
> > 2) check engine light goes on, then off, so I think that's normal
> > 3) fuel pump, it's hard for me to tell. I do hear a click, like a
> > solenoid activating, but I'm not clear if I hear the fuel pump. This
> > is in the gas tank, right? Maybe I should sit in the back seat, while
> > a friend turns on the ignition.

>
> Yes. While the MIL is on, the pump will hum/buzz/whine. Another way of
> listening is to remove the gas filler cap and put an ear there while
> somebody else turns the key to "II" and then to "III".
>
>
>
> > 4) The valves do move-Thanks for that tip, since I do need to replace
> > the timing belt soon, and was wondering about that.

>
> > 5) Tach seems to be still, when I try to start, I don't see any
> > movement. You mention an "igniter,"

>
> Oho... this is absolutely critical. And you need to watch that needle like
> the proverbial hawk while you crank.
>
> "Seems" isn't good enough; you need to /verify/. If the tach needle is
> indeed dead-still while cranking, then the igniter is dead.
>
>
>
> > Can you tell me more about this part? Is there another name for it? I
> > can not find that word in my service manual.

>
> It's also called the Ignition Control Module, or ICM.
>
> It's unfortunate that you never actually checked out my site, otherwise
> you'd have found this:
> <http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/startproblems.html#badigniter>
> The links are right at the very very top. It's another page I've been
> meaning to rewrite...
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/


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