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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 17 Sep 2004, 01:11 am
Steve
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Default 86 civic Weber 2 barrel tuning

I just put on a Webber 2 barrel on the daughters 86 civic, The other carb
and emissions stuff were giving me fits. So anyway, we ripped all the
vacuum lines off, all emissions stuff and found a cute little 4 cylinder
under there. Put the carb on, real easy install, fired up almost on the
first crank (had to get fuel to the carb first.)
Tonight we worked on the vacuum advance and noticed:
A: it has some degree of centrifugal advance
B: two vacuum ports on the dist
C: One will not hold vacuum
D: The other one allows the car to advance the timing to quick.

Now any Ideas on what set-up we should run for timing and where should we
put base timing at? The only problem is a occasional surge when turning off
the engine; not quite a diesel but close.

Other than that It starts real quick when cold, great when warm and rung
well, 10 times better that the OEM stuff. It even Idles!

Steve


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 17 Sep 2004, 09:07 am
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 86 civic Weber 2 barrel tuning

Steve wrote:
> I just put on a Webber 2 barrel on the daughters 86 civic, The other carb
> and emissions stuff were giving me fits. So anyway, we ripped all the
> vacuum lines off, all emissions stuff and found a cute little 4 cylinder
> under there. Put the carb on, real easy install, fired up almost on the
> first crank (had to get fuel to the carb first.)


if you're throwing al the emissions stuff away, why not go for a pair of
dcoe 40's? you can get manifold/carb kits no problem. i saw a guy
racing dcoe 40's on an integra not so long ago. he was dusting the
injected guys by quite a margin - not bad considering that performance
injection is /way/ more spendy.

> Tonight we worked on the vacuum advance and noticed:
> A: it has some degree of centrifugal advance
> B: two vacuum ports on the dist
> C: One will not hold vacuum


that's bad. probably needs replacement.

> D: The other one allows the car to advance the timing to quick.
>
> Now any Ideas on what set-up we should run for timing and where should we
> put base timing at?


if you're using a working factory distributor, set timing to factory.
if you want to run higher octane, you can advance it a little, but no
more than a couple of degrees.

>The only problem is a occasional surge when turning off
> the engine; not quite a diesel but close.


may want to change to a colder plug.

>
> Other than that It starts real quick when cold, great when warm and rung
> well, 10 times better that the OEM stuff. It even Idles!
>
> Steve
>
>


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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 18 Sep 2004, 12:21 am
Steve
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 86 civic Weber 2 barrel tuning

> if you're throwing al the emissions stuff away, why not go for a pair of
> dcoe 40's? you can get manifold/carb kits no problem. i saw a guy racing
> dcoe 40's on an integra not so long ago. he was dusting the injected guys
> by quite a margin - not bad considering that performance injection is
> /way/ more spendy.



Was just looking for a fix, i knew webers made a great all around carb set
up. Primarally reason was to get it to run decent for the daughter.



>> Tonight we worked on the vacuum advance and noticed:
>> A: it has some degree of centrifugal advance
>> B: two vacuum ports on the dist
>> C: One will not hold vacuum

>
> that's bad. probably needs replacement.


Thats what i thought, but am going to try the internal cyntrifical advance
for now, just leave the others off.


>> D: The other one allows the car to advance the timing to quick.
>>
>> Now any Ideas on what set-up we should run for timing and where should we
>> put base timing at?

>
> if you're using a working factory distributor, set timing to factory. if
> you want to run higher octane, you can advance it a little, but no more
> than a couple of degrees.


Still chasing some slight Vacumme leaks, aroung the little valves on the
manifold and suck. going to remove them and put a alumunum plates over them.
I'm going to try the few degrees befor TDC for now
Ran it to work today, really scoots down the freeway.
>

Steve


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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 18 Sep 2004, 02:24 am
Eric
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 86 civic Weber 2 barrel tuning

Steve wrote:
>
> Was just looking for a fix, i knew webers made a great all around carb set
> up. Primarally reason was to get it to run decent for the daughter.


[snip]

This has been an interesting discussion, especially if the original engine
was carbureted. Honda used a three barrel carburetor. The auxiliary barrel
fed a small quantity of a rich mixture to the CVCC valves. This mixture was
then ignited in the precombustion chamber eliciting a flame front which then
ignited a lean mixture that was fed to the cylinders through the primary and
secondary barrels (the latter typically only invoked under heavy throttle
such as when the car is under acceleration). By using this method, Honda
was able to postpone using catalytic converters for many years since it
allowed their engines to be both fuel efficient and have low emissions (yes
I know that the '86 has a cat, this started in '84 which was about 4 or more
years after most other US cars had cats).

Does the Weber carburetor you installed have a separate barrel for the
auxiliary valves? Or, did you switch over to a head that was for the fuel
injected setup, e.g., '86 Si? If I remember correctly, the spark plug
electrode on the carbureted units was in the precombustion chamber, not the
main combustion chamber. If the Weber does not correctly feed the auxiliary
valves, then it might seem that fuel mixture ignition would not occur as
well as originally designed and the car might not pass an emissions
inspection.

Of course, the whole above discussion is mute if indeed the engine had the
fuel injected head which did not have the CVCC valves.

Eric
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 18 Sep 2004, 02:33 am
Grumpy au Contraire
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 86 civic Weber 2 barrel tuning



Eric wrote:
>
> Steve wrote:
> >
> > Was just looking for a fix, i knew webers made a great all around carb set
> > up. Primarally reason was to get it to run decent for the daughter.

>
> [snip]
>
> This has been an interesting discussion, especially if the original engine
> was carbureted. Honda used a three barrel carburetor. The auxiliary barrel
> fed a small quantity of a rich mixture to the CVCC valves. This mixture was
> then ignited in the precombustion chamber eliciting a flame front which then
> ignited a lean mixture that was fed to the cylinders through the primary and
> secondary barrels (the latter typically only invoked under heavy throttle
> such as when the car is under acceleration). By using this method, Honda
> was able to postpone using catalytic converters for many years since it
> allowed their engines to be both fuel efficient and have low emissions (yes
> I know that the '86 has a cat, this started in '84 which was about 4 or more
> years after most other US cars had cats).
>



I just bought a 1982 & 83 1300 CVCC Civics and both had catalytic
converters. I kinda think that they reared their ugly head back around
1980 by statute...


> Does the Weber carburetor you installed have a separate barrel for the
> auxiliary valves? Or, did you switch over to a head that was for the fuel
> injected setup, e.g., '86 Si? If I remember correctly, the spark plug
> electrode on the carbureted units was in the precombustion chamber, not the
> main combustion chamber. If the Weber does not correctly feed the auxiliary
> valves, then it might seem that fuel mixture ignition would not occur as
> well as originally designed and the car might not pass an emissions
> inspection.
>
> Of course, the whole above discussion is mute if indeed the engine had the
> fuel injected head which did not have the CVCC valves.
>
> Eric



I'll be interested in responses to this as well since I'm making one
good car out of the two that I have and all them thar' vacuum hoses are
causing me nightmares and insomnia (as one might tell from the posting
hour of this note).



--
JT

Just tooling through cyberspace in my ancient G4
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 18 Sep 2004, 02:46 am
Eric
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 86 civic Weber 2 barrel tuning

Grumpy au Contraire wrote:
>
> Eric wrote:
> >
> > Steve wrote:
> > >
> > > Was just looking for a fix, i knew webers made a great all around
> > > carb set up. Primarally reason was to get it to run decent for the
> > > daughter.

> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > This has been an interesting discussion, especially if the original
> > engine was carbureted. Honda used a three barrel carburetor. The
> > auxiliary barrel fed a small quantity of a rich mixture to the CVCC
> > valves. This mixture was then ignited in the precombustion chamber
> > eliciting a flame front which then ignited a lean mixture that was fed
> > to the cylinders through the primary and secondary barrels (the latter
> > typically only invoked under heavy throttle such as when the car is
> > under acceleration). By using this method, Honda was able to postpone
> > using catalytic converters for many years since it allowed their
> > engines to be both fuel efficient and have low emissions (yes I know
> > that the '86 has a cat, this started in '84 which was about 4 or more
> > years after most other US cars had cats).
> >

>
> I just bought a 1982 & 83 1300 CVCC Civics and both had catalytic
> converters. I kinda think that they reared their ugly head back around
> 1980 by statute...


Thanks for the point of clarification. Correction noted.

> > Does the Weber carburetor you installed have a separate barrel for the
> > auxiliary valves? Or, did you switch over to a head that was for the
> > fuel injected setup, e.g., '86 Si? If I remember correctly, the spark
> > plug electrode on the carbureted units was in the precombustion chamber,
> > not the main combustion chamber. If the Weber does not correctly feed
> > the auxiliary valves, then it might seem that fuel mixture ignition
> > would not occur as well as originally designed and the car might not
> > pass an emissions inspection.
> >
> > Of course, the whole above discussion is mute if indeed the engine had
> > the fuel injected head which did not have the CVCC valves.
> >
> > Eric

>
> I'll be interested in responses to this as well since I'm making one
> good car out of the two that I have and all them thar' vacuum hoses are
> causing me nightmares and insomnia (as one might tell from the posting
> hour of this note).
>


The trick is to not disconnect the vacuum hoses from the black boxes and to
leave as much connected to the intake manifold as possible. A factory
service manual from http://www.helminc.com is also helpful. You may even be
able to find one in a used book store.

Eric
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 19 Sep 2004, 12:24 am
Steve
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 86 civic Weber 2 barrel tuning

Well now I understand the Aux valve setup; and the terminology CVCC.
It is a standard progressive 2 barrel carb and stock head, but the adaptor
plate and gasket was ported to a third small hole, I'm assuming for the aux
valve, so fuel and air can get there too. It's working great, so I'm not to
concerned about it being incorrect.
Just feeling out Ideas on timing.
I did discover yesterday that even though I have removed all the vacuum
stuff, I sprayed carb cleaner on the egr valve and the two others near the
front of the engine and had the rpm increase... Vacuum leaks. Tomorrow we
are removing them and bolting plates over the holes.

Steve





"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message news:414BE29A.AA99D57D@spam.now...
> Steve wrote:
>>
>> Was just looking for a fix, i knew webers made a great all around carb
>> set
>> up. Primarally reason was to get it to run decent for the daughter.

>
> [snip]
>
> This has been an interesting discussion, especially if the original engine
> was carbureted. Honda used a three barrel carburetor. The auxiliary
> barrel
> fed a small quantity of a rich mixture to the CVCC valves. This mixture
> was
> then ignited in the precombustion chamber eliciting a flame front which
> then
> ignited a lean mixture that was fed to the cylinders through the primary
> and
> secondary barrels (the latter typically only invoked under heavy throttle
> such as when the car is under acceleration). By using this method, Honda
> was able to postpone using catalytic converters for many years since it
> allowed their engines to be both fuel efficient and have low emissions
> (yes
> I know that the '86 has a cat, this started in '84 which was about 4 or
> more
> years after most other US cars had cats).
>
> Does the Weber carburetor you installed have a separate barrel for the
> auxiliary valves? Or, did you switch over to a head that was for the fuel
> injected setup, e.g., '86 Si? If I remember correctly, the spark plug
> electrode on the carbureted units was in the precombustion chamber, not
> the
> main combustion chamber. If the Weber does not correctly feed the
> auxiliary
> valves, then it might seem that fuel mixture ignition would not occur as
> well as originally designed and the car might not pass an emissions
> inspection.
>
> Of course, the whole above discussion is mute if indeed the engine had the
> fuel injected head which did not have the CVCC valves.
>
> Eric



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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 19 Sep 2004, 12:27 am
Steve
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 86 civic Weber 2 barrel tuning

I'll eventually post a picture of the engine bay, it looks good with all the
garbage out of there. That will convince you!
Steve

"Grumpy au Contraire" <Grumpy@doofis.FAKEcom> wrote in message
news:414BE56E.5AD24C8@doofis.FAKEcom...
>
>
> Eric wrote:
>>
>> Steve wrote:
>> >
>> > Was just looking for a fix, i knew webers made a great all around carb
>> > set
>> > up. Primarally reason was to get it to run decent for the daughter.

>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> This has been an interesting discussion, especially if the original
>> engine
>> was carbureted. Honda used a three barrel carburetor. The auxiliary
>> barrel
>> fed a small quantity of a rich mixture to the CVCC valves. This mixture
>> was
>> then ignited in the precombustion chamber eliciting a flame front which
>> then
>> ignited a lean mixture that was fed to the cylinders through the primary
>> and
>> secondary barrels (the latter typically only invoked under heavy throttle
>> such as when the car is under acceleration). By using this method, Honda
>> was able to postpone using catalytic converters for many years since it
>> allowed their engines to be both fuel efficient and have low emissions
>> (yes
>> I know that the '86 has a cat, this started in '84 which was about 4 or
>> more
>> years after most other US cars had cats).
>>

>
>
> I just bought a 1982 & 83 1300 CVCC Civics and both had catalytic
> converters. I kinda think that they reared their ugly head back around
> 1980 by statute...
>
>
>> Does the Weber carburetor you installed have a separate barrel for the
>> auxiliary valves? Or, did you switch over to a head that was for the
>> fuel
>> injected setup, e.g., '86 Si? If I remember correctly, the spark plug
>> electrode on the carbureted units was in the precombustion chamber, not
>> the
>> main combustion chamber. If the Weber does not correctly feed the
>> auxiliary
>> valves, then it might seem that fuel mixture ignition would not occur as
>> well as originally designed and the car might not pass an emissions
>> inspection.
>>
>> Of course, the whole above discussion is mute if indeed the engine had
>> the
>> fuel injected head which did not have the CVCC valves.
>>
>> Eric

>
>
> I'll be interested in responses to this as well since I'm making one
> good car out of the two that I have and all them thar' vacuum hoses are
> causing me nightmares and insomnia (as one might tell from the posting
> hour of this note).
>
>
>
> --
> JT
>
> Just tooling through cyberspace in my ancient G4



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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 19 Sep 2004, 01:57 am
Grumpy au Contraire
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 86 civic Weber 2 barrel tuning

I'm assuming that it is not a CVCC engine (3 valves per cylinder). Am I
right on that assumption?

JT



Steve wrote:
>
> I'll eventually post a picture of the engine bay, it looks good with all the
> garbage out of there. That will convince you!
> Steve
>
> "Grumpy au Contraire" <Grumpy@doofis.FAKEcom> wrote in message
> news:414BE56E.5AD24C8@doofis.FAKEcom...
> >
> >
> > Eric wrote:
> >>
> >> Steve wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Was just looking for a fix, i knew webers made a great all around carb
> >> > set
> >> > up. Primarally reason was to get it to run decent for the daughter.
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> This has been an interesting discussion, especially if the original
> >> engine
> >> was carbureted. Honda used a three barrel carburetor. The auxiliary
> >> barrel
> >> fed a small quantity of a rich mixture to the CVCC valves. This mixture
> >> was
> >> then ignited in the precombustion chamber eliciting a flame front which
> >> then
> >> ignited a lean mixture that was fed to the cylinders through the primary
> >> and
> >> secondary barrels (the latter typically only invoked under heavy throttle
> >> such as when the car is under acceleration). By using this method, Honda
> >> was able to postpone using catalytic converters for many years since it
> >> allowed their engines to be both fuel efficient and have low emissions
> >> (yes
> >> I know that the '86 has a cat, this started in '84 which was about 4 or
> >> more
> >> years after most other US cars had cats).
> >>

> >
> >
> > I just bought a 1982 & 83 1300 CVCC Civics and both had catalytic
> > converters. I kinda think that they reared their ugly head back around
> > 1980 by statute...
> >
> >
> >> Does the Weber carburetor you installed have a separate barrel for the
> >> auxiliary valves? Or, did you switch over to a head that was for the
> >> fuel
> >> injected setup, e.g., '86 Si? If I remember correctly, the spark plug
> >> electrode on the carbureted units was in the precombustion chamber, not
> >> the
> >> main combustion chamber. If the Weber does not correctly feed the
> >> auxiliary
> >> valves, then it might seem that fuel mixture ignition would not occur as
> >> well as originally designed and the car might not pass an emissions
> >> inspection.
> >>
> >> Of course, the whole above discussion is mute if indeed the engine had
> >> the
> >> fuel injected head which did not have the CVCC valves.
> >>
> >> Eric

> >
> >
> > I'll be interested in responses to this as well since I'm making one
> > good car out of the two that I have and all them thar' vacuum hoses are
> > causing me nightmares and insomnia (as one might tell from the posting
> > hour of this note).
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > JT
> >
> > Just tooling through cyberspace in my ancient G4


--
JT

Just tooling through cyberspace in my ancient G4
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 20 Sep 2004, 12:06 am
Steve
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 86 civic Weber 2 barrel tuning

I'm assuming that a CVCC engine has 3 real valves and the aux valve. This is
what it has.
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Auto Technician


"Grumpy au Contraire" <Grumpy@doofis.FAKEcom> wrote in message
news:414D2E89.F753106@doofis.FAKEcom...
> I'm assuming that it is not a CVCC engine (3 valves per cylinder). Am I
> right on that assumption?
>
> JT
>
>
>
> Steve wrote:
>>
>> I'll eventually post a picture of the engine bay, it looks good with all
>> the
>> garbage out of there. That will convince you!
>> Steve
>>
>> "Grumpy au Contraire" <Grumpy@doofis.FAKEcom> wrote in message
>> news:414BE56E.5AD24C8@doofis.FAKEcom...
>> >
>> >
>> > Eric wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Steve wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Was just looking for a fix, i knew webers made a great all around
>> >> > carb
>> >> > set
>> >> > up. Primarally reason was to get it to run decent for the daughter.
>> >>
>> >> [snip]
>> >>
>> >> This has been an interesting discussion, especially if the original
>> >> engine
>> >> was carbureted. Honda used a three barrel carburetor. The auxiliary
>> >> barrel
>> >> fed a small quantity of a rich mixture to the CVCC valves. This
>> >> mixture
>> >> was
>> >> then ignited in the precombustion chamber eliciting a flame front
>> >> which
>> >> then
>> >> ignited a lean mixture that was fed to the cylinders through the
>> >> primary
>> >> and
>> >> secondary barrels (the latter typically only invoked under heavy
>> >> throttle
>> >> such as when the car is under acceleration). By using this method,
>> >> Honda
>> >> was able to postpone using catalytic converters for many years since
>> >> it
>> >> allowed their engines to be both fuel efficient and have low emissions
>> >> (yes
>> >> I know that the '86 has a cat, this started in '84 which was about 4
>> >> or
>> >> more
>> >> years after most other US cars had cats).
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > I just bought a 1982 & 83 1300 CVCC Civics and both had catalytic
>> > converters. I kinda think that they reared their ugly head back around
>> > 1980 by statute...
>> >
>> >
>> >> Does the Weber carburetor you installed have a separate barrel for the
>> >> auxiliary valves? Or, did you switch over to a head that was for the
>> >> fuel
>> >> injected setup, e.g., '86 Si? If I remember correctly, the spark plug
>> >> electrode on the carbureted units was in the precombustion chamber,
>> >> not
>> >> the
>> >> main combustion chamber. If the Weber does not correctly feed the
>> >> auxiliary
>> >> valves, then it might seem that fuel mixture ignition would not occur
>> >> as
>> >> well as originally designed and the car might not pass an emissions
>> >> inspection.
>> >>
>> >> Of course, the whole above discussion is mute if indeed the engine had
>> >> the
>> >> fuel injected head which did not have the CVCC valves.
>> >>
>> >> Eric
>> >
>> >
>> > I'll be interested in responses to this as well since I'm making one
>> > good car out of the two that I have and all them thar' vacuum hoses are
>> > causing me nightmares and insomnia (as one might tell from the posting
>> > hour of this note).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > JT
>> >
>> > Just tooling through cyberspace in my ancient G4

>
> --
> JT
>
> Just tooling through cyberspace in my ancient G4



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