Honda Car Forum

i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with alan
alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of sending money
to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly car,better mileage,less
pollution.to me so what if they're a little more expensive,it's the
priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen our depenece on oil and find
alternative sources of energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).did you see
the bike on american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea
if you ask me.
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
> jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>> Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
>> accomplish?
>
> He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for people
> not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and it's helpful
> for them to explain their real goals and get input.
>

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
> jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>> Hybrids get about 55 mpg. My regular civic gets 35 mpg. Assuming 12,000
>> miles driven annually, over 10 years, hybrids will consume 2,182
>> gallons. My civic will consume 3,429 gallons. That's a difference of
>> 1,247 gallons. Multiply that by 20,000 people, for example, and that's a
>> lot of gas saved.
>
>But it's no money saved, since the hybrid will cost much more up front
>than that 1,247 gallons of gas costs.

Do you know anyone who'd rather shop at mom & pop shops instead of
Walmart? It's not always about money--it's the principle. My previous
post did not focus on money but on actual gas saved. 1,247 is a lot of
gallons. Notice I didn't compare hybrids to SUV's or minivans because
they are in different car markets.

Hybrid owners enjoy the satisfaction of being less dependent on oil
companies. Maybe someday we will see cars running on cold fusion (that
won't explode on impact, preferably).

I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my attention.
Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's toast.
At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I am
ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater and
the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.

Mike

ickd wrote:
> i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
> alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
> hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
> sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
> car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
> more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
> our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
> energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).did you see the bike on
> american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
> you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
>> In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
>> jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
>>> accomplish?
>>
>> He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
>> people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
>> it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.

to a large extent, the hybrid is the auto makers dream. batteries have
a limited life, replacement is prohibitively expensive, and it can't be
done by joes garage down the street - it has to be done by the dealer,
if at all. therefore, guess what? you have dealer lock-in! every 5
years or so, you /have/ to pay a fortune or buy a new car!!! it's
absolutely an auto makers dream.

personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
provider.

Artfulcodger wrote:
> I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
> 71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my attention.
> Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
> I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's toast.
> At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I am
> ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater and
> the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.
>
> Mike
>
> ickd wrote:
>
>>i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
>>alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
>>hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
>>sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
>>car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
>>more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
>>our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
>>energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).did you see the bike on
>>american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
>>you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
>>message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
>>
>>>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
>>>jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
>>>>accomplish?
>>>
>>>He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
>>>people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
>>>it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.
>
>
>

Wait a minute.

In my HUMBLE opinion the dream car would be
a hybrid diesel. Apparently, nobody has a grasp
of BOTH techniques.

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
> to a large extent, the hybrid is the auto makers dream. batteries have
> a limited life, replacement is prohibitively expensive, and it can't be
> done by joes garage down the street - it has to be done by the dealer,
> if at all. therefore, guess what? you have dealer lock-in! every 5
> years or so, you /have/ to pay a fortune or buy a new car!!! it's
> absolutely an auto makers dream.
>
> personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
> the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
> freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
> provider.
>
> Artfulcodger wrote:
> > I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
> > 71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my
attention.
> > Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
> > I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's
toast.
> > At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I am
> > ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater
and
> > the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ickd wrote:
> >
> >>i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
> >>alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
> >>hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
> >>sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
> >>car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
> >>more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
> >>our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
> >>energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).did you see the bike on
> >>american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
> >>you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> >>message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
> >>
> >>>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
> >>>jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
> >>>>accomplish?
> >>>
> >>>He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
> >>>people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
> >>>it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.
> >
> >
> >
>

wait a minute - if your diesel hybrid has the same batteries and has to
go to the same dealer, where's the difference?...

the diesel-electric concept is ancient. railroad engines have been
using them for decades. it's not the mechanical concepts; it's the
limited battery life/cost equation locking you into the dealer and their
opportunity for gouging that i have a problem with. congress sees fit
to mandate that obdc II is "open" to prevent dealer lock-in. unless
congress has the same foresight regarding hybrids, and i don't see how
it can force manufacturers to use the same battery packs - a totally
different proposition to a $2 port on an embedded computer, then the
hybrid is going to be what i said, a manufacturers dream.

Al Smith wrote:
> Wait a minute.
>
> In my HUMBLE opinion the dream car would be
> a hybrid diesel. Apparently, nobody has a grasp
> of BOTH techniques.
>
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
>
>>to a large extent, the hybrid is the auto makers dream. batteries have
>>a limited life, replacement is prohibitively expensive, and it can't be
>>done by joes garage down the street - it has to be done by the dealer,
>>if at all. therefore, guess what? you have dealer lock-in! every 5
>>years or so, you /have/ to pay a fortune or buy a new car!!! it's
>>absolutely an auto makers dream.
>>
>>personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
>>the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
>>freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
>>provider.
>>
>>Artfulcodger wrote:
>>
>>>I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
>>>71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my
>
> attention.
>
>>>Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
>>>I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's
>
> toast.
>
>>>At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I am
>>>ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater
>
> and
>
>>>the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>ickd wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
>>>>alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
>>>>hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
>>>>sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
>>>>car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
>>>>more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
>>>>our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
>>>>energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).di d you see the bike on
>>>>american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
>>>>you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
>>>>message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
>>>>>jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
>>>>>>accomplish?
>>>>>
>>>>>He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
>>>>>people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
>>>>>it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

In article
<zK%Zc.191972$UTP.135564@twister01.bloor.is.net.ca ble.rogers.com>,
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote:

> I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's toast.

Yep.

Those who want hybrids say "it's the principle" but they DON'T take into
account the big picture: that those batteries take resources to build
and dispose of, etc.

No, those who say "it's the principle" generally focus on one thing out
of context. Sure, you're sending less money to the middle East (and
everywhere else that supplies oil, including the US). But maybe you're
actually polluting the environment more in the long run, with the
resources required to manufacture and dispose of the batteries.

In article <aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com>,
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
> the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
> freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
> provider.

Not to mention an engine that history has shown tends to last a lot
longer than gasoline engines overall.

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:w6OdnRl7OYjwMKXcRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
> wait a minute - if your diesel hybrid has the same batteries and has to
> go to the same dealer, where's the difference?...

Obvious. A diesel is about 15% more efficient than an Otto. That's
the difference. Although there is no efficiency increase from
eliminating ignition advance, there is still significant efficiency
increase.

>
> the diesel-electric concept is ancient. railroad engines have been
> using them for decades.

Not with regenerative braking.

it's not the mechanical concepts; it's the
> limited battery life/cost equation locking you into the dealer and their
> opportunity for gouging that i have a problem with. congress sees fit
> to mandate that obdc II is "open" to prevent dealer lock-in. unless
> congress has the same foresight regarding hybrids, and i don't see how
> it can force manufacturers to use the same battery packs - a totally
> different proposition to a $2 port on an embedded computer, then the
> hybrid is going to be what i said, a manufacturers dream.
>

???????

> Al Smith wrote:
> > Wait a minute.
> >
> > In my HUMBLE opinion the dream car would be
> > a hybrid diesel. Apparently, nobody has a grasp
> > of BOTH techniques.
> >
> > "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> > news:aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
> >
> >>to a large extent, the hybrid is the auto makers dream. batteries have
> >>a limited life, replacement is prohibitively expensive, and it can't be
> >>done by joes garage down the street - it has to be done by the dealer,
> >>if at all. therefore, guess what? you have dealer lock-in! every 5
> >>years or so, you /have/ to pay a fortune or buy a new car!!! it's
> >>absolutely an auto makers dream.
> >>
> >>personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
> >>the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
> >>freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
> >>provider.
> >>
> >>Artfulcodger wrote:
> >>
> >>>I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
> >>>71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my
> >
> > attention.
> >
> >>>Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
> >>>I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's
> >
> > toast.
> >
> >>>At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I
am
> >>>ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater
> >
> > and
> >
> >>>the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.
> >>>
> >>>Mike
> >>>
> >>>ickd wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
> >>>>alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
> >>>>hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
> >>>>sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
> >>>>car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
> >>>>more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
> >>>>our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
> >>>>energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).di d you see the bike on
> >>>>american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
> >>>>you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> >>>>message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
> >>>>>jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
> >>>>>>accomplish?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
> >>>>>people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
> >>>>>it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
>

al, we're talking about different things. i'm taking about business
ethics - you're talking about what amounts to thermodynamics.

how about we agree our subject before we continue this conversation?

Al Smith wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:w6OdnRl7OYjwMKXcRVn-qQ@comcast.com...
>
>>wait a minute - if your diesel hybrid has the same batteries and has to
>>go to the same dealer, where's the difference?...
>
>
> Obvious. A diesel is about 15% more efficient than an Otto. That's
> the difference. Although there is no efficiency increase from
> eliminating ignition advance, there is still significant efficiency
> increase.
>
>
>>the diesel-electric concept is ancient. railroad engines have been
>>using them for decades.
>
>
> Not with regenerative braking.
>
> it's not the mechanical concepts; it's the
>
>>limited battery life/cost equation locking you into the dealer and their
>>opportunity for gouging that i have a problem with. congress sees fit
>>to mandate that obdc II is "open" to prevent dealer lock-in. unless
>>congress has the same foresight regarding hybrids, and i don't see how
>>it can force manufacturers to use the same battery packs - a totally
>>different proposition to a $2 port on an embedded computer, then the
>>hybrid is going to be what i said, a manufacturers dream.
>>
>
>
> ???????
>
>
>>Al Smith wrote:
>>
>>>Wait a minute.
>>>
>>>In my HUMBLE opinion the dream car would be
>>>a hybrid diesel. Apparently, nobody has a grasp
>>>of BOTH techniques.
>>>
>>>"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
>>>news:aKqdnagz7s2nEqXcRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>to a large extent, the hybrid is the auto makers dream. batteries have
>>>>a limited life, replacement is prohibitively expensive, and it can't be
>>>>done by joes garage down the street - it has to be done by the dealer,
>>>>if at all. therefore, guess what? you have dealer lock-in! every 5
>>>>years or so, you /have/ to pay a fortune or buy a new car!!! it's
>>>>absolutely an auto makers dream.
>>>>
>>>>personally, i think diesel is a good solution. at the refinery level,
>>>>the fuel's cheaper to produce than gas, less gets used, and you have the
>>>>freedom of a mechanical system that is not locked into one specific
>>>>provider.
>>>>
>>>>Artfulcodger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I too viewed that hybrid show on PBS and found it of real interest.
>>>>>71 mpg for city driving in a Prius at $30,000 CDN sure gets my
>>>
>>>attention.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Whether or not that is cost effective or not, it has to be darn close.
>>>>>I have wondered however about battery life and what to do when it's
>>>
>>>toast.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>At this point long term results must only be theory but by the time I
>
> am
>
>>>>>ready for a new vehicle (2 years) I am sure the choice will be greater
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>
>>>>>the longevity somewhat more proven and maybe even better economics.
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>ickd wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>i really got interested in hybrids after watching a show on pbs with
>>>>>>alan alda(anyone see it?)and iceland is leading the way in hydrogen
>>>>>>hybrids,hydrogen/electric.i want a hybrid because i'm sick of
>>>>>>sending money to the middle east,i want a more eco friendly
>>>>>>car,better mileage,less pollution.to me so what if they're a little
>>>>>>more expensive,it's the priciple,it's time we find a way to lessen
>>>>>>our depenece on oil and find alternative sources of
>>>>>>energy(hydrogen,solar,wind,electric,etc.).di d you see the bike on
>>>>>>american chopper that runs on either gas or ethanol? great idea if
>>>>>>you ask me. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
>>>>>>message news:elmop-13F529.06160203092004@text.usenetserver.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In article <P8SZc.2466$Vl5.629@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
>>>>>>>jajabinks <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Why question people's buying decisions? What are you trying to
>>>>>>>>accomplish?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>He didn't specify what help he was looking for; it's common for
>>>>>>>people not to have thought about things in a big picture way, and
>>>>>>>it's helpful for them to explain their real goals and get input.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
>