Honda Car Forum

In article <TQGTc.195204$tH1.9910916@twister.southeast.rr.com >,
"Brian Drake" <nospambdrake1@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

> I'm in the banking / finance business. As I said in my original post, I
> believe that some type of compensation was due since it did take up some of
> their time, but 86.00 is excessive to the point of robbery plus I thing they
> could have reset the light for me and sent me on my way without all the
> testing (since I told them what happened).

My dealership would have done that. However, I have a long standing and
very good relationship with my dealer.

Had I gone to someone I don't know, I would expect to pay him for his
time as we have no relationship at all. That's just the business world.

Do YOU have a good and long standing relationship with this dealer?

In article <TQGTc.195204$tH1.9910916@twister.southeast.rr.com >,
"Brian Drake" <nospambdrake1@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

> Something else I noticed was some type of organized labor logo on the
> 'customer satisfaction' letter I had in my car after the work was
> performed..... that could be the full explanation right there, I don't
> remember this being a Union shop in the past. I am told by some that the
> dealerships have 'set costs' that they charge for things no matter how long
> they actually take to perform, which means they probably 'estimate' that an
> issue such as this takes 30 min to work on..... so they rip me a new one on
> the 86.00 spend 15 minutes on it and move on to the next sucker and double
> their profit per hour, etc. Sucks, but I'll chalk this one up to an
> expensive lesson.

Dude, you need to get out more. This is how dealerships work, and have
worked forever. Not only dealerships, but all auto repair.

The book says the repair takes X amount of time. You pay for that.
You're bitching that the guy took less time than that, yet you paid for
the book rate. Hey, this is what promotes good technicians; they might
work an 8 hour day, but get paid for 11 or 12 hours worth of work. If
they're good, they deserve to be recognized for that.

Let's turn that around, shall we? Let's suppose you got the shop
doofus, who took X + 3 hours to do the work. If you're paying for
ACTUAL time, you just paid for the fact that you got a newbie, a guy
who's struggling to find his way around the shop and around your car.
Why didn't I get the one good guy in the shop, you're asking yourself.
But hey, you were the one who wanted to pay ACTUAL time spent, right?

The flat rate protects you from the unexpected and from morons, and it
promotes the good technicians and keeps them there and gives huge
incentive for them to stay good technicians.

You can bitch about the flat rate all you want, but if it weren't flat
rate--if you paid for the actual time the tech spent in front of your
car--you'd be bitching about that, too.

If you're going to bitch about auto repair, then fix it yourself. Do
some reading ahead of time, and know that a loose gas cap is the VERY
FIRST thing you check when you see the check engine light--and that the
light will go out on its own once you fix the loose gas cap. You didn't
take the time to understand this--shoot, it's in the owner's manual, and
it's obvious you never even read that--so you pay someone else for that
knowledge as needed.

Is that so hard to understand?

Do you frequently go to places that give their time and expertise away
to some random Joe who walks in the door, some guy they've never seen
before? Do YOU give YOUR time and expertise away to random people who
walk in the door?

In article <wCBTc.34465$wM.11543@twister.tampabay.rr.com>,
Dave Kelsen <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> It's free enterprise, of course; I don't have to take my Honda there for
> service. But it isn't right, not by a long shot.

If people pay for it, it's right.

People pay five bucks for a cup of Starbucks coffee. That isn't right,
not by a long shot. Are you suggesting that Starbucks ought not to be
allowed to charge that for a cup of coffee?

If people are willing to pay it, there's nothing wrong with charging it.

In article <wCBTc.34465$wM.11543@twister.tampabay.rr.com>,
Dave Kelsen <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> I know you asked Brian this question, but I'm going to answer; I have a
> company that services computers, and does networking and other
> computer-related work (www.wetumpkatechnology.com). Not long ago, I was
> called to a law office to diagnose a computer problem. Although I spent
> two hours, I was unable to determine the cause of the problem. My
> hourly rate is $90, but in this case I chose not to charge even the $35
> rate I charge just to show up. I told them that I didn't find, much
> less fix, the problem. I told them (well, wrote down for them) what to
> say to the manufacturer to take the next step in resolving it.
>
> That law firm has become one of my best customers; I have worked on
> their systems, and worked on the home PCs of some of the employees as well.
>
> Because they trust me not to **** 'em over on the price, and not to
> bullshit with them. Because I took a chance and didn't charge them when
> I couldn't help them.
>
> This economic model works; older people will tell you that that's how it
> used to work all the time. It still does - or can.

It works for me all day long at my favorite Honda dealership. But we
have a relationship that goes back over 20 years.

When some random Joe walks in the door, someone they've never see before
and therefore never expect to see again, it's a crap shoot. They can do
it your way, and probably never see the guy again--in fact, read
postings on the Usenet about how "I screwed that stealer, he gave it to
me"--or they could do it by the book.

Given the number of people who have serious attitudes about dealership
service, it's probably prudent nowadays for the dealer to charge in
those circumstances. The dealership is better off waiting to see if a
customer will be a long term customer, and then take care of him. It's
probably not prudent for the dealer to give stuff away and hope that
such a gesture is meaningful, in this day and age of people inherently
distrusting the dealership for no reason other than "it's the
stealership, what did you expect".

"Brian Drake" <nospambdrake1@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:TQGTc.195204$tH1.9910916@twister.southeast.rr .com...
> I'm in the banking / finance business. As I said in my original post, I
> believe that some type of compensation was due since it did take up some
of
> their time, but 86.00 is excessive to the point of robbery plus I thing
they
> could have reset the light for me and sent me on my way without all the
> testing (since I told them what happened). 6000.00 doesn't seem like very
> much to me for a piece of diagnostic equipment, but assuming your right,
> that means that at those outragous prices, they could pay off the machine
in
> roughly 69 loose gas cap visits, and the rest is profit (not including
labor
> costs).

Well, only if you have no other costs in running a business. I'll assume the
machine was solar powered, sitting in the middle of an public field.


How long did it take for the diagnosis?

"Dave Kelsen" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote
snip
> I know you asked Brian this question, but I'm going to answer; I have a
> company that services computers, and does networking and other
> computer-related work (www.wetumpkatechnology.com). Not long ago, I was
> called to a law office to diagnose a computer problem. Although I spent
> two hours, I was unable to determine the cause of the problem. My
> hourly rate is $90, but in this case I chose not to charge even the $35
> rate I charge just to show up. I told them that I didn't find, much
> less fix, the problem. I told them (well, wrote down for them) what to
> say to the manufacturer to take the next step in resolving it.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

What you did was essentially offer a teaser rate.

> That law firm has become one of my best customers; I have worked on
> their systems, and worked on the home PCs of some of the employees as well.

You've simply undercut the market <shrug>.

> Because they trust me not to **** 'em over on the price, and not to
> bullshit with them. Because I took a chance and didn't charge them when
> I couldn't help them.
>
> This economic model works; older people will tell you that that's how it
> used to work all the time. It still does - or can.

So too does the economic model that a person's time is worth money. I don't care
if a person is a doctor, a lawyer, a plumber, a nurse, or a car technician.

If shops are now charging time for attempting to diagnose a problem without
solving the problem, they are merely taking a cue from the so-called white
collar professions that have been doing this for years.

No white collar professional has grounds to complain.

"Brian Drake" <nospambdrake1@carolina.rr.com> wrote
> I'm in the banking / finance business. As I said in my original post, I
> believe that some type of compensation was due since it did take up some of
> their time, but 86.00 is excessive to the point of robbery

Some would say that about the fees charged in banking / finance. <shrug>

> plus I thing they
> could have reset the light for me and sent me on my way without all the
> testing (since I told them what happened). 6000.00 doesn't seem like very
> much to me for a piece of diagnostic equipment, but assuming your right,
> that means that at those outragous prices, they could pay off the machine in
> roughly 69 loose gas cap visits, and the rest is profit (not including labor
> costs).

So, as you say, try another dealer...

Good luck with that! ;-)

> Something else I noticed was some type of organized labor logo on the
> 'customer satisfaction' letter I had in my car after the work was
> performed..... that could be the full explanation right there, I don't
> remember this being a Union shop in the past.

You're killin' me.

Blue collar workers have as much a right to find ways to make money as white
collar workers. If this means using collective barganing, so be it. (OTOH I am
doubtful Honda technicians being union members is the rule.)

AFAIC, white collar workers often use similar means. CEOs and University
presidents will say, "So-and-so at Institution X is making this much. You want
to keep me: Pay me the same as Instititution X." What's the extra money for?
Nothing but what the market will bear.

> I am told by some that the
> dealerships have 'set costs' that they charge for things no matter how long
> they actually take to perform, which means they probably 'estimate' that an
> issue such as this takes 30 min to work on.....

Cost setting by dealerships is completely rational. They're all supposed to use
the same Honda service labor hour manual for jobs. If a technician can make the
repair faster, he's accordingly rewarded. If not, he loses.

This is unlike doctors, attorneys and I imagine various people in financial
services who have highly variable rates for the same service.

Which approach is more fair?

Also, shops these days all seem to advertise their minimum diagnosis charge.
Some or all states require this, IIRC.

> so they rip me a new one on
> the 86.00 spend 15 minutes on it and move on to the next sucker and double
> their profit per hour, etc. Sucks, but I'll chalk this one up to an
> expensive lesson.

Yup. See if you can find a dealer shop that's better. I suspect that will be a
challenge.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-DEBA23.07390315082004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <TQGTc.195204$tH1.9910916@twister.southeast.rr.com >,
> "Brian Drake" <nospambdrake1@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Something else I noticed was some type of organized labor logo on the
> > 'customer satisfaction' letter I had in my car after the work was
> > performed..... that could be the full explanation right there, I don't
> > remember this being a Union shop in the past. I am told by some that the
> > dealerships have 'set costs' that they charge for things no matter how long
> > they actually take to perform, which means they probably 'estimate' that an
> > issue such as this takes 30 min to work on..... so they rip me a new one on
> > the 86.00 spend 15 minutes on it and move on to the next sucker and double
> > their profit per hour, etc. Sucks, but I'll chalk this one up to an
> > expensive lesson.
>
> Dude, you need to get out more. This is how dealerships work, and have
> worked forever. Not only dealerships, but all auto repair.
>
> The book says the repair takes X amount of time. You pay for that.
> You're bitching that the guy took less time than that, yet you paid for
> the book rate. Hey, this is what promotes good technicians; they might
> work an 8 hour day, but get paid for 11 or 12 hours worth of work. If
> they're good, they deserve to be recognized for that.
>
> Let's turn that around, shall we? Let's suppose you got the shop
> doofus, who took X + 3 hours to do the work. If you're paying for
> ACTUAL time, you just paid for the fact that you got a newbie, a guy
> who's struggling to find his way around the shop and around your car.
> Why didn't I get the one good guy in the shop, you're asking yourself.
> But hey, you were the one who wanted to pay ACTUAL time spent, right?
>
> The flat rate protects you from the unexpected and from morons, and it
> promotes the good technicians and keeps them there and gives huge
> incentive for them to stay good technicians.
>
> You can bitch about the flat rate all you want, but if it weren't flat
> rate--if you paid for the actual time the tech spent in front of your
> car--you'd be bitching about that, too.
>
> If you're going to bitch about auto repair, then fix it yourself.

Hear hear.

Then more so-called white collar professionals might have a better understanding
of how stupid they are; that their careers are built on a house of cards.

I'm not going to be nice. Too many white collar professionals do not have real
skills. They're paid fat salaries because someone years ago manipulated the
market with some cerebral leger-de-main and convinced people that they had some
magical ability that warranted them earning a lot more per hour than others.
That's life, but there are recourses, from collective bargaining to voting for
your preferred political candidate.

Exception: The cost of the actual tuition-based education should factor into how
much a person makes, as a rational economic matter. So if it costs $200,000 to
make a medical doctor (whereas a car technician gets his education for maybe
less than $5000 all told), then the MDs' time after graduation should be more
valuable.

But as far as I can tell, MD hourly rates already far exceed car technician
rates.

snip
> Do YOU give YOUR time and expertise away to random people who
> walk in the door?

You said it.

How many white collar professionals don't get this is amazing. I propose it says
a lot about their "education."

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:fPKTc.22765$9Y6.9000@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
> Exception: The cost of the actual tuition-based education should factor
into how
> much a person makes, as a rational economic matter.

Hmm.

I would have thought rational economics would have compensation based on
value to client, not cost to provider.

You can always tell exactly what something is worth, down to the penny. The
value of an item is exactly what the person selling it for can get for it.



"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-DAC296.07402715082004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <wCBTc.34465$wM.11543@twister.tampabay.rr.com>,
> Dave Kelsen <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> > It's free enterprise, of course; I don't have to take my Honda there for
> > service. But it isn't right, not by a long shot.
>
> If people pay for it, it's right.
>
> People pay five bucks for a cup of Starbucks coffee. That isn't right,
> not by a long shot. Are you suggesting that Starbucks ought not to be
> allowed to charge that for a cup of coffee?
>
> If people are willing to pay it, there's nothing wrong with charging it.
>