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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05 Jul 2004, 05:42 pm
Bob Travis
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Default Deceptive trade practice at Honda dealership?

My wife and I feel like Honda screwed us when we bought a used CRV in 2002.
The finance manager said that if we bought the insurance he recommended if
either one of us became disabled the insurance would cover the payments
until we could get back to work. We figured the Honda employee wouldn't lie
so we signed the contract without reading it. If we had read it we would
have noted that only the primary debtor (my wife) was covered. We had
already told the Honda guy my wife was on permanent disability so she could
never be insured anyway, so the finance manager should have changed me to
the primary debtor so at least I would be covered and we wouldn't be paying
insurance premiums just to fatten Honda's wallet.

We are considering many courses of action but we would like a second or
thiird opinion before we decide what to do. For the record I have been
disabled for three months now and because Honda lied I have had to make a
$278 car payment every month after becoming disabled with no income other
than my wife's meager diability check. Honda told us the best they could do
is stop the insurance and give us our premiums back. That's not what we
want. I should have been covered and they should be making our car payments
now.


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 05 Jul 2004, 05:52 pm
Brian Smith
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Deceptive trade practice at Honda dealership?


"Bob Travis" <e_quip@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RPkGc.13614$JR4.1365@attbi_s54...
> My wife and I feel like Honda screwed us when we bought a used CRV in

2002.
> The finance manager said that if we bought the insurance he recommended if
> either one of us became disabled the insurance would cover the payments
> until we could get back to work. We figured the Honda employee wouldn't

lie
> so we signed the contract without reading it. If we had read it we would
> have noted that only the primary debtor (my wife) was covered.


By your own admission you failed to read the contract, before signing the
document. That puts (in my opinion) you at fault, no one else.


--
Brian

I live in my own little world. But it's OK. They
know me here.


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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 05 Jul 2004, 06:54 pm
DragonRider
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Deceptive trade practice at Honda dealership?

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:42:57 GMT, "Bob Travis" <e_quip@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>My wife and I feel like Honda screwed us when we bought a used CRV in 2002.
>The finance manager said that if we bought the insurance he recommended if
>either one of us became disabled the insurance would cover the payments
>until we could get back to work.


That is commonly known as the most expensive insurance known to
mankind. It's also one of the hardest to collect on. Hell, by the
time you finish all the requirements to claim it you have usually
spent more money than you saved.

>We figured the Honda employee wouldn't lie so we signed the
>contract without reading it. If we had read it we would
>have noted that only the primary debtor (my wife) was covered.


You signed a contract on a major purchase that you hadn't read and
obviously did not understand? You just basically admitted you are on
your own with zero recourse.

>We had
>already told the Honda guy my wife was on permanent disability so she could
>never be insured anyway, so the finance manager should have changed me to
>the primary debtor so at least I would be covered and we wouldn't be paying
>insurance premiums just to fatten Honda's wallet.


The primary debtor isn't based on the needs of your insurance company.
It's based on your credit, your ability, stability, and willingness to
pay, etc. If your wife is on a very limited disability income I find
it amazing that she was financed as the primary in the first place!

>We are considering many courses of action but we would like a second or
>thiird opinion before we decide what to do. For the record I have been
>disabled for three months now and because Honda lied I have had to make a
>$278 car payment every month after becoming disabled with no income other
>than my wife's meager diability check.


Honda did not lie. The dealership employee may be partially at fault,
but the major fault lies with your failing to understand the contract
that you entered into. Like it or not, you are at fault there. There
are certainly cheaper and more effective insurances for such occasions
(the duck comes to mind). Your basic course of action is to sit back,
smile, live, and learn... however, you have already achieved the only
really pleasant outcome below.

>Honda told us the best they could do is stop the insurance and give
>us our premiums back.


Honestly, they don't even have to do that. That is a very kind effort
on their part and if I were you I'd take it and run. Heck, apply it to
those payments.

>That's not what we want. I should have been covered and they
>should be making our car payments now.


Is that what you WANT or is that the contract you SIGNED? There is a
huge difference. I want a nice Ferrari 360 Modena Spider but I've
been happily living with my Miata's for years. (soon to be an S2k or
STi, not sure which yet)


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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 05 Jul 2004, 07:30 pm
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Deceptive trade practice at Honda dealership?

In article <RPkGc.13614$JR4.1365@attbi_s54>,
"Bob Travis" <e_quip@hotmail.com> wrote:

> My wife and I feel like Honda screwed us when we bought a used CRV in 2002.


I'm sure Honda didn't screw you.

The Honda dealer, though, is a different story. You do know, don't you,
that the Honda dealer is an independent businessman? He isn't Honda.
He just sells their cars--in a manner that makes him as much profit as
possible. Some dealers lie, cheat, and steal to do that. But that
doesn't have anything to do with the manufacturer.



> The finance manager said that if we bought the insurance he recommended


Did you know he gets paid a commission on that crap? He's just another
salesman. Did you buy his products without knowing what they were or
how much they should cost?

You can *always* buy everything outside the car itself somewhere else.
You can buy the money somewhere else (the financing), and you should.
You can buy life insurance somewhere else, and you should. You should
never, EVER buy multiple things from the car dealer. He's there to sell
you the car, period.

So this guy wants to sell you insurance. Didn't a little bell go off in
your head, wondering why? Does your insurance guy try to sell you cars?



> if
> either one of us became disabled the insurance would cover the payments
> until we could get back to work.


This would all be laid out in the contract. You read the contract
first; if you agree to the terms, you sign it. If not, you don't. If
you don't understand the terms, how can you possibly agree to it? If
you don't understand the terms, you shouldn't sign it until and unless
you do understand the terms.



> We figured the Honda employee wouldn't lie


Ohmigod. Because you're a rube straight out of the cornfield....


> so we signed the contract without reading it.


And this is someone else's problem? I don't think so. You started this
thread by calling this a deceptive trade practice; now it's just someone
smarter than you selling you something you never even bothered to TRY to
understand. That's not deceptive on his part. That's just plain STUPID
on your part.

Suck it up. Be a man. Admit to your mistake, learn from it, and move
on. But don't try to make it someone else's fault. Hell, you're not
even doing a very good job of *that*. You're tripping all over yourself
to admit that you were at fault, by doing something stupid yet perfectly
legal--you signed a contract without reading it.

Whether you read it or not is immaterial; under the law, you signed it
therefore you're beholden to it.



> If we had read it


If wishes were horses. If I had hit that MegaMillions last week, I'd be
worth $200 million. So what?



> we would
> have noted that only the primary debtor (my wife) was covered. We had
> already told the Honda guy my wife was on permanent disability so she could
> never be insured anyway,


If she can't be insured, then they won't issue the policy and you won't
have to pay anything. If they issue the policy and take your money,
then she's insured. Claim the disability and stop paying on the car.
When their insurance carrier investigates things, he'll find that they
never should have issued the policy in the first place. Worst case,
they'll deny your claim and revoke your policy--and you won't have to
pay anything.

Why do you sign contracts without reading them? Why do you buy
insurance from a car salesman? Do you buy ice cream from your plumber?
The two things are entirely unrelated, and you shouldn't do business
like that.


> We are considering many courses of action


For what? What harm has come to you? If they're taking your money and
giving you a policy, you're insured. You bought the insurance, it's
yours. You got the product. If they don't issue the policy, then you
don't have anything to pay for and therefore don't owe anything on it.
No harm.

No harm. Got it? Either you're harmed, or you're not. The only way
you'd be harmed is if they take your money AND don't issue the insurance
policy. You DO know that insurance is regulated by your state, don't
you?




> For the record I have been
> disabled for three months now and because Honda lied I have had to make a
> $278 car payment every month after becoming disabled with no income other
> than my wife's meager diability check. Honda told us the best they could do
> is stop the insurance and give us our premiums back.


I'm still waiting for the part of your story whereby you filed a claim
under this insurance and were denied because you never had a policy. I
don't see that part of it. I can only infer, I can only read between
the lines, that your disability claim was denied 3 months ago. But you
don't tell us why.

But then again, maybe it wasn't denied. Maybe you never filed. Maybe
you just ASSUMED you wouldn't be covered, now you're crying in your beer
over a bunch of assumptions.

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 05 Jul 2004, 08:45 pm
DragonRider
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Deceptive trade practice at Honda dealership?

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 20:30:04 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>You can *always* buy everything outside the car itself somewhere else.
>You can buy the money somewhere else (the financing), and you should.


This is the only place I saw that may need attention. With most all
the manufacturers offering APR's lower than you can get even at your
credit unions you are often better off taking the manufacturer
financing. The trick to that is making sure you know what your credit
is before you go in and shop the car. Get the Automotive Beacon Score
from your credit union or something similar. If you are 700-720+ you
should qualify for just about everyone's best rates. The dealers as
well as the banks can try to make points (bumping an interest rate up
a little and getting a kickback for it) but they can't do that if you
know what your credit is and what rates you qualify for.

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 05 Jul 2004, 09:06 pm
Bob Travis
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Deceptive trade practice at Honda dealership?

Well I see the error of my ways now, it was late and the store had closed,
the finance manager wanted to go home and so did I. At the time I didn't
even care my wife was listed as the primary debtor, I just wanted to sign
the papers and go home. I didn't even see why we needed a new used car. At
least our 1991 Plymouth Acclaim was fully paid for and it had a trunk you
could hide valuables in, unlike the tiny compartment under the CRV's back
mat. I thought to myself as long as I have a roof over my head and money to
pay my cell phone and cable modem bills I'm happy, so if she wants to see us
get screwed royally she will pay for it later. Now it is time to pay the
piper. Haha. But I still think I was deceived by Honda for agreeing to buy
disability insurance they knew we could never use.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-04F042.20300405072004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <RPkGc.13614$JR4.1365@attbi_s54>,
> "Bob Travis" <e_quip@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > My wife and I feel like Honda screwed us when we bought a used CRV in

2002.
>
> I'm sure Honda didn't screw you.
>
> The Honda dealer, though, is a different story. You do know, don't you,
> that the Honda dealer is an independent businessman? He isn't Honda.
> He just sells their cars--in a manner that makes him as much profit as
> possible. Some dealers lie, cheat, and steal to do that. But that
> doesn't have anything to do with the manufacturer.
>
>
>
> > The finance manager said that if we bought the insurance he recommended

>
> Did you know he gets paid a commission on that crap? He's just another
> salesman. Did you buy his products without knowing what they were or
> how much they should cost?
>
> You can *always* buy everything outside the car itself somewhere else.
> You can buy the money somewhere else (the financing), and you should.
> You can buy life insurance somewhere else, and you should. You should
> never, EVER buy multiple things from the car dealer. He's there to sell
> you the car, period.
>
> So this guy wants to sell you insurance. Didn't a little bell go off in
> your head, wondering why? Does your insurance guy try to sell you cars?
>
>
>
> > if
> > either one of us became disabled the insurance would cover the payments
> > until we could get back to work.

>
> This would all be laid out in the contract. You read the contract
> first; if you agree to the terms, you sign it. If not, you don't. If
> you don't understand the terms, how can you possibly agree to it? If
> you don't understand the terms, you shouldn't sign it until and unless
> you do understand the terms.
>
>
>
> > We figured the Honda employee wouldn't lie

>
> Ohmigod. Because you're a rube straight out of the cornfield....
>
>
> > so we signed the contract without reading it.

>
> And this is someone else's problem? I don't think so. You started this
> thread by calling this a deceptive trade practice; now it's just someone
> smarter than you selling you something you never even bothered to TRY to
> understand. That's not deceptive on his part. That's just plain STUPID
> on your part.
>
> Suck it up. Be a man. Admit to your mistake, learn from it, and move
> on. But don't try to make it someone else's fault. Hell, you're not
> even doing a very good job of *that*. You're tripping all over yourself
> to admit that you were at fault, by doing something stupid yet perfectly
> legal--you signed a contract without reading it.
>
> Whether you read it or not is immaterial; under the law, you signed it
> therefore you're beholden to it.
>
>
>
> > If we had read it

>
> If wishes were horses. If I had hit that MegaMillions last week, I'd be
> worth $200 million. So what?
>
>
>
> > we would
> > have noted that only the primary debtor (my wife) was covered. We had
> > already told the Honda guy my wife was on permanent disability so she

could
> > never be insured anyway,

>
> If she can't be insured, then they won't issue the policy and you won't
> have to pay anything. If they issue the policy and take your money,
> then she's insured. Claim the disability and stop paying on the car.
> When their insurance carrier investigates things, he'll find that they
> never should have issued the policy in the first place. Worst case,
> they'll deny your claim and revoke your policy--and you won't have to
> pay anything.
>
> Why do you sign contracts without reading them? Why do you buy
> insurance from a car salesman? Do you buy ice cream from your plumber?
> The two things are entirely unrelated, and you shouldn't do business
> like that.
>
>
> > We are considering many courses of action

>
> For what? What harm has come to you? If they're taking your money and
> giving you a policy, you're insured. You bought the insurance, it's
> yours. You got the product. If they don't issue the policy, then you
> don't have anything to pay for and therefore don't owe anything on it.
> No harm.
>
> No harm. Got it? Either you're harmed, or you're not. The only way
> you'd be harmed is if they take your money AND don't issue the insurance
> policy. You DO know that insurance is regulated by your state, don't
> you?
>
>
>
>
> > For the record I have been
> > disabled for three months now and because Honda lied I have had to make

a
> > $278 car payment every month after becoming disabled with no income

other
> > than my wife's meager diability check. Honda told us the best they could

do
> > is stop the insurance and give us our premiums back.

>
> I'm still waiting for the part of your story whereby you filed a claim
> under this insurance and were denied because you never had a policy. I
> don't see that part of it. I can only infer, I can only read between
> the lines, that your disability claim was denied 3 months ago. But you
> don't tell us why.
>
> But then again, maybe it wasn't denied. Maybe you never filed. Maybe
> you just ASSUMED you wouldn't be covered, now you're crying in your beer
> over a bunch of assumptions.
>



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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 05 Jul 2004, 09:50 pm
manic mechanic
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Deceptive trade practice at Honda dealership?

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote:
>
> Do you buy ice cream from your plumber?


no but he's got good crack
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 05 Jul 2004, 10:22 pm
Elmo P. Shagnasty
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Deceptive trade practice at Honda dealership?

In article <DOnGc.30939$Oq2.24398@attbi_s52>,
"Bob Travis" <e_quip@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Well I see the error of my ways now, it was late and the store had closed,
> the finance manager wanted to go home and so did I. At the time I didn't
> even care my wife was listed as the primary debtor, I just wanted to sign
> the papers and go home.


Well hang on, I have a few papers I'd like you to sign. Don't bother
reading them, it'd only waste your time. Sign here.



> But I still think I was deceived by Honda for agreeing to buy
> disability insurance they knew we could never use.


Repeat after me: you were never deceived by Honda. You didn't deal
with Honda. You dealt with an independent salesman, selling a product.

And it's not the salesman's job to determine whether or not you can or
will use a product. His job is to sell it to you. YOUR job is not to
be ripped off. It's no one else's responsibility to look after your
needs and take care of you.

The world doesn't owe you a living. The world doesn't owe you anything.

If you didn't have a driver's license, the salesman would still sell you
the car. It's not his responsibility to make sure you have a license,
can afford the gas and insurance and upkeep, and are physically able to
drive a car. His job is to SELL YOU THE CAR. He's not Honda; he's an
independent businessman. IT'S NOT UP TO HIM TO JUDGE WHY YOU WANT
SOMETHING AND WHETHER YOU'RE WORTHY OF HAVING IT. It's up to you to
judge whether you should buy the product or not.

You didn't do that. You signed the papers without reading them. YOU
are at fault. What's more YOU are the ONLY one here at fault. No one
else.

The way you keep saying "I was deceived by Honda" tells me that you
truly can't distinguish between the manufacturer of the product and the
independent businessman who sells you the product. Given that, what you
should do is take your concerns to a lawyer and have him argue with the
dealership that you are incompetent and therefore legally unable to
enter into contracts.

That's the only way you'll get out of this. It sounds pretty solid,
too--because you are unable to distinguish a manufacturer from a
dealer/businessman, and you sign contracts without reading them.

How did you manage to buy a home, anyway? My guess is that there's a
whole story behind that one--which you, no doubt, are claiming some sort
of deception.

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 05 Jul 2004, 10:25 pm
Elmo P. Shagnasty
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Deceptive trade practice at Honda dealership?

In article <ts0ke0t4tssut3m6kpir6d23a1n3edp514@4ax.com>,
DragonRider <DragonRider1@comcast.net> wrote:

> >You can *always* buy everything outside the car itself somewhere else.
> >You can buy the money somewhere else (the financing), and you should.

>
> This is the only place I saw that may need attention. With most all
> the manufacturers offering APR's lower than you can get even at your
> credit unions you are often better off taking the manufacturer
> financing.


Usually, the manufacturer financing at those special rates requires that
you buy the car at full sticker price.

I can get financing at 3.99% now, off the street. (It was 3.49% for the
longest time, until a few weeks ago.) I'm then free to negotiate
whatever price I can negotiate, including rebates.

(remember, the deal is usually special APR *or* rebates, but not both.
The special APR is just a marketing gimmick, designed to get people's
attention. Woe be to the guy who doesn't follow through by analyzing
his entire costs in the deal.)

The only way to handle that is to get all the numbers up front and
crunch them.

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 05 Jul 2004, 10:53 pm
Caroline
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Deceptive trade practice at Honda dealership?

A few questions and comments:

1.
Bob, so now you're disabled. Is it permanent? If so, won't you soon be receiving
disability along with your wife?

2.
Yes, the dealer's people lied to you. Yes, your outrage is at least somewhat
justified. But like the others said, I doubt you have legal recourse. What you
can do is tell your story all over town. This may humiliate (somewhat) the
dealer and teach others to read the contract before signing. If one cannot
understand a contract, yup, get a lawyer or seek some other, independent
resource to translate the contract for you.

3.
I think the dealer's offer to give you back the premiums is very generous.

4.
If you can't make the car payments, seek re-financing. I have read lenders tend
to be flexible when it comes to changes in people's circumstances. They want the
money to keep coming in, one way or another. Maybe it won't be the greatest
refinancing package, but you'll still be able to keep the car. Other newsgroups
might better be able to handle any queries you might have about re-financing
your car. Post again if you want suggestions.

"Bob Travis" <e_quip@hotmail.com> wrote
> My wife and I feel like Honda screwed us when we bought a used CRV in 2002.
> The finance manager said that if we bought the insurance he recommended if
> either one of us became disabled the insurance would cover the payments
> until we could get back to work. We figured the Honda employee wouldn't lie
> so we signed the contract without reading it. If we had read it we would
> have noted that only the primary debtor (my wife) was covered. We had
> already told the Honda guy my wife was on permanent disability so she could
> never be insured anyway, so the finance manager should have changed me to
> the primary debtor so at least I would be covered and we wouldn't be paying
> insurance premiums just to fatten Honda's wallet.
>
> We are considering many courses of action but we would like a second or
> thiird opinion before we decide what to do. For the record I have been
> disabled for three months now and because Honda lied I have had to make a
> $278 car payment every month after becoming disabled with no income other
> than my wife's meager diability check. Honda told us the best they could do
> is stop the insurance and give us our premiums back. That's not what we
> want. I should have been covered and they should be making our car payments
> now.




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