Honda Car Forum

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message
newsnpGc.3378$sD4.998@newsread3.news.atl.earthli nk.net...
> A few questions and comments:
>
> 1.
> Bob, so now you're disabled. Is it permanent? If so, won't you soon be
receiving
> disability along with your wife?

No one knows if it's permanent or not yet. My doctor said I may recover
completely, but it may take a year or two to find out.

>
> 2.
> Yes, the dealer's people lied to you. Yes, your outrage is at least
somewhat
> justified. But like the others said, I doubt you have legal recourse.
What you
> can do is tell your story all over town. This may humiliate (somewhat) the
> dealer and teach others to read the contract before signing. If one cannot
> understand a contract, yup, get a lawyer or seek some other, independent
> resource to translate the contract for you.

Friends I have and I know some of the best trial lawyers in Kentucky. I can
raise a ruckus if I need to do so. I decided to get a feel for the basic
inequity of the situation by starting here.

>
> 3.
> I think the dealer's offer to give you back the premiums is very generous.

You could look at it that way, but isn't doing so an admission of "we should
not have led you to believe you would both be covered by this insurance"?


>
> 4.
> If you can't make the car payments, seek re-financing. I have read lenders
tend
> to be flexible when it comes to changes in people's circumstances. They
want the
> money to keep coming in, one way or another. Maybe it won't be the
greatest
> refinancing package, but you'll still be able to keep the car. Other
newsgroups
> might better be able to handle any queries you might have about
re-financing
> your car. Post again if you want suggestions.

We can make the payments. We are just peeved that we were led to believe we
were both covered by the contract.

Caroline wrote:

[snip]
> 2.
> Yes, the dealer's people lied to you. Yes, your outrage is at least somewhat
> justified. But like the others said, I doubt you have legal recourse. What you
> can do is tell your story all over town. This may humiliate (somewhat) the
> dealer and teach others to read the contract before signing. If one cannot
> understand a contract, yup, get a lawyer or seek some other, independent
> resource to translate the contract for you.
>

Why should he tell everyone his story? The dealer would not be
humiliated, Bob would. In his rush to get home, he did not read the
contract, which had to mention who was the insurance beneficiary and all
the circumstances that would allow claims against said insurance. The
burden never falls on the seller to ensure the buyer receives a fair
deal. Bob failed to look after his interests, and shifting even a small
part of the blame onto the dealer is undeserved.

> 3.
> I think the dealer's offer to give you back the premiums is very generous.
>

This fact alone proves the dealer is extremely fair. Legally they would
be entitled to force Bob to pay the premiums untill the contract expires
(whenever that may be). But instead they allow him to terminate the
contract (an early termination clause may be stipulated in the contract,
but we will never know since he did not post it) AND they are willing to
refund him the money. If only all dealers would be this generous...

[snip]

Cosmin

Caroline wrote:
> A few questions and comments:
>
> 1.
> Bob, so now you're disabled. Is it permanent? If so, won't you soon be receiving
> disability along with your wife?
>
> 2.
> Yes, the dealer's people lied to you. Yes, your outrage is at least somewhat
> justified. But like the others said, I doubt you have legal recourse. What you
> can do is tell your story all over town. This may humiliate (somewhat) the
> dealer and teach others to read the contract before signing. If one cannot
> understand a contract, yup, get a lawyer or seek some other, independent
> resource to translate the contract for you.
>
> 3.
> I think the dealer's offer to give you back the premiums is very generous.
>
> 4.
> If you can't make the car payments, seek re-financing. I have read lenders tend
> to be flexible when it comes to changes in people's circumstances. They want the
> money to keep coming in, one way or another. Maybe it won't be the greatest
> refinancing package, but you'll still be able to keep the car. Other newsgroups
> might better be able to handle any queries you might have about re-financing
> your car. Post again if you want suggestions.
>
> "Bob Travis" <e_quip@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>>My wife and I feel like Honda screwed us when we bought a used CRV in 2002.
>>The finance manager said that if we bought the insurance he recommended if
>>either one of us became disabled the insurance would cover the payments
>>until we could get back to work. We figured the Honda employee wouldn't lie
>>so we signed the contract without reading it. If we had read it we would
>>have noted that only the primary debtor (my wife) was covered. We had
>>already told the Honda guy my wife was on permanent disability so she could
>>never be insured anyway, so the finance manager should have changed me to
>>the primary debtor so at least I would be covered and we wouldn't be paying
>>insurance premiums just to fatten Honda's wallet.
>>
>>We are considering many courses of action but we would like a second or
>>thiird opinion before we decide what to do. For the record I have been
>>disabled for three months now and because Honda lied I have had to make a
>>$278 car payment every month after becoming disabled with no income other
>>than my wife's meager diability check. Honda told us the best they could do
>>is stop the insurance and give us our premiums back. That's not what we
>>want. I should have been covered and they should be making our car payments
>>now.
>
>
>
>
Hmmmm,
Onus is on you. You did not read fine print yourself, you assumed verbal
statement. Very sloppy! I think the dealer is doing all it should.
You can sue the finance manager but where is the proof he said that?
He is not a Honda employee, he is an employee of the dealership(an
independent business)
Tony

Bob Travis wrote:

> No one knows if it's permanent or not yet. My doctor said I may recover
> completely, but it may take a year or two to find out.

I do hope you will get well again. That said, I must disagree with your
opinions regarding the Honda dealer who sold the insurance. As many
others pointed out, please note that the Honda dealer is a completely
different entity from Honda Corporation.

> Friends I have and I know some of the best trial lawyers in Kentucky. I can
> raise a ruckus if I need to do so. I decided to get a feel for the basic
> inequity of the situation by starting here.
>

Making an ass of yourself is the only thing you will achieve by "raising
a ruckus". Talk to some lawyers, they will probaby point out the
complete lack of legal basis you have for your case.

>
> You could look at it that way, but isn't doing so an admission of "we should
> not have led you to believe you would both be covered by this insurance"?
>

Or maybe the dealer is trying to be nice to you. Giving up the premiums
you already paid may be outweighed by his hope you may purchase another
car from them in the future. If he is aware you won't do business with
him in the future, and he is still going to refund your money, then he's
one of the best dealerships I've ever heard of.


> We can make the payments. We are just peeved that we were led to believe we
> were both covered by the contract.
>

I am truly glad you are in a good financial situation. But I do not see
how you were led to believe both you and your wife were covered.
Whatever were the negotiations prior to signing the contract, their
final outcome is the contract itself. If the dealer said otherwise would
be immoral, however in a court only the written contract matters. And
the contract is definitely not on your side.

Cosmin

....top posting here!


Having bought approx 25 new cars/trucks in my 60 years, which
including 3 whereby I went to the dealer a few hours early...only to
find my NEW vehicle was in pcs because it was either "hit" by a wise
guy salesman, the engine had been blown by a dealer employee over the
weekend (a supercharged Tbird) and more things than I wish to
recall....the old saying "Let the buyer beware" always applies....
OK, you didn't do it...you didn't read the contractor understand it.

Were they nice....of course NOT...were you (oops sorry)
"stupid"...well, (again sorry)...YES.

There's an old saying..."Watch the new car salesman open the door for
you to your new car upon delivery...blocking the dent they put in".

My Dad was a part owner in a new car dealer years ago...and he tried
to eliminate many such things...but finally he too was frustrated!
It's the breeding of many (I say most) sales people and the way most
dealerships "guide their ways of doing buisness".

I'm not saying there are no "good" sales people or dealerships...but
they are absolutely a small percentage. YOU...and all
consumers...have to act (as you should) that you are the customer, and
it's your money...at least until you sign the contract.

The profit in dealership (generally) is NOT in the basic car sale
including FACTORY INSTALLED equipment. Rather in extended
warranties...which most try to tell you is from the MFG'r (most
arent't), add-on sun roofs, annd deals like yours.

Still, I feel bad for you...but the other poster is 100% correct.
Honda didn't screw you...but (maybe) the dealer did. READ THE
CONTRACTS & AGREEMENTS...don't be pressured. If you're not
sure...hell, ask for a copy (before you sign), and take it and go have
a cup of coffee and read it.

By the way, most of these deals (like yours, actually can be bought
elsewhere and certainly don't have to be bought at the time of
delievery.

I'll bet...if you read very closely...you'll find this "great payment
agreement" isn't even underwritten by Honda, no the primary
lender...rather some 1/2 -assed , flybynight company. Further, I'll
be that it's got language (like "only if you're sick due to mongolian
flu contract in december) that makes collecting really hard.

I feel "bad" for you....BUT the question is...Did YOU LEARN anythin=g
for the future? That applies to cars, things you purcahse at BestBuy,
etc etc.

I hope so.






++++++++++++++++++++++
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 20:30:04 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>In article <RPkGc.13614$JR4.1365@attbi_s54>,
> "Bob Travis" <e_quip@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My wife and I feel like Honda screwed us when we bought a used CRV in 2002.
>
>I'm sure Honda didn't screw you.
>
>The Honda dealer, though, is a different story. You do know, don't you,
>that the Honda dealer is an independent businessman? He isn't Honda.
>He just sells their cars--in a manner that makes him as much profit as
>possible. Some dealers lie, cheat, and steal to do that. But that
>doesn't have anything to do with the manufacturer.
>
>
>
>> The finance manager said that if we bought the insurance he recommended
>
>Did you know he gets paid a commission on that crap? He's just another
>salesman. Did you buy his products without knowing what they were or
>how much they should cost?
>
>You can *always* buy everything outside the car itself somewhere else.
>You can buy the money somewhere else (the financing), and you should.
>You can buy life insurance somewhere else, and you should. You should
>never, EVER buy multiple things from the car dealer. He's there to sell
>you the car, period.
>
>So this guy wants to sell you insurance. Didn't a little bell go off in
>your head, wondering why? Does your insurance guy try to sell you cars?
>
>
>
>> if
>> either one of us became disabled the insurance would cover the payments
>> until we could get back to work.
>
>This would all be laid out in the contract. You read the contract
>first; if you agree to the terms, you sign it. If not, you don't. If
>you don't understand the terms, how can you possibly agree to it? If
>you don't understand the terms, you shouldn't sign it until and unless
>you do understand the terms.
>
>
>
>> We figured the Honda employee wouldn't lie
>
>Ohmigod. Because you're a rube straight out of the cornfield....
>
>
>> so we signed the contract without reading it.
>
>And this is someone else's problem? I don't think so. You started this
>thread by calling this a deceptive trade practice; now it's just someone
>smarter than you selling you something you never even bothered to TRY to
>understand. That's not deceptive on his part. That's just plain STUPID
>on your part.
>
>Suck it up. Be a man. Admit to your mistake, learn from it, and move
>on. But don't try to make it someone else's fault. Hell, you're not
>even doing a very good job of *that*. You're tripping all over yourself
>to admit that you were at fault, by doing something stupid yet perfectly
>legal--you signed a contract without reading it.
>
>Whether you read it or not is immaterial; under the law, you signed it
>therefore you're beholden to it.
>
>
>
>> If we had read it
>
>If wishes were horses. If I had hit that MegaMillions last week, I'd be
>worth $200 million. So what?
>
>
>
>> we would
>> have noted that only the primary debtor (my wife) was covered. We had
>> already told the Honda guy my wife was on permanent disability so she could
>> never be insured anyway,
>
>If she can't be insured, then they won't issue the policy and you won't
>have to pay anything. If they issue the policy and take your money,
>then she's insured. Claim the disability and stop paying on the car.
>When their insurance carrier investigates things, he'll find that they
>never should have issued the policy in the first place. Worst case,
>they'll deny your claim and revoke your policy--and you won't have to
>pay anything.
>
>Why do you sign contracts without reading them? Why do you buy
>insurance from a car salesman? Do you buy ice cream from your plumber?
>The two things are entirely unrelated, and you shouldn't do business
>like that.
>
>
>> We are considering many courses of action
>
>For what? What harm has come to you? If they're taking your money and
>giving you a policy, you're insured. You bought the insurance, it's
>yours. You got the product. If they don't issue the policy, then you
>don't have anything to pay for and therefore don't owe anything on it.
>No harm.
>
>No harm. Got it? Either you're harmed, or you're not. The only way
>you'd be harmed is if they take your money AND don't issue the insurance
>policy. You DO know that insurance is regulated by your state, don't
>you?
>
>
>
>
>> For the record I have been
>> disabled for three months now and because Honda lied I have had to make a
>> $278 car payment every month after becoming disabled with no income other
>> than my wife's meager diability check. Honda told us the best they could do
>> is stop the insurance and give us our premiums back.
>
>I'm still waiting for the part of your story whereby you filed a claim
>under this insurance and were denied because you never had a policy. I
>don't see that part of it. I can only infer, I can only read between
>the lines, that your disability claim was denied 3 months ago. But you
>don't tell us why.
>
>But then again, maybe it wasn't denied. Maybe you never filed. Maybe
>you just ASSUMED you wouldn't be covered, now you're crying in your beer
>over a bunch of assumptions.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote:
>
> In article <DOnGc.30939$Oq2.24398@attbi_s52>,
> "Bob Travis" <e_quip@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Well I see the error of my ways now, it was late and the store had closed,
> > the finance manager wanted to go home and so did I. At the time I didn't
> > even care my wife was listed as the primary debtor, I just wanted to sign
> > the papers and go home.
>
> Well hang on, I have a few papers I'd like you to sign. Don't bother
> reading them, it'd only waste your time. Sign here.
>
> > But I still think I was deceived by Honda for agreeing to buy
> > disability insurance they knew we could never use.
>
> Repeat after me: you were never deceived by Honda. You didn't deal
> with Honda. You dealt with an independent salesman, selling a product.
>
> And it's not the salesman's job to determine whether or not you can or
> will use a product. His job is to sell it to you. YOUR job is not to
> be ripped off. It's no one else's responsibility to look after your
> needs and take care of you.
>
> The world doesn't owe you a living. The world doesn't owe you anything.
>
> If you didn't have a driver's license, the salesman would still sell you
> the car. It's not his responsibility to make sure you have a license,
> can afford the gas and insurance and upkeep, and are physically able to
> drive a car. His job is to SELL YOU THE CAR. He's not Honda; he's an
> independent businessman. IT'S NOT UP TO HIM TO JUDGE WHY YOU WANT
> SOMETHING AND WHETHER YOU'RE WORTHY OF HAVING IT. It's up to you to
> judge whether you should buy the product or not.
>
> You didn't do that. You signed the papers without reading them. YOU
> are at fault. What's more YOU are the ONLY one here at fault. No one
> else.
>
> The way you keep saying "I was deceived by Honda" tells me that you
> truly can't distinguish between the manufacturer of the product and the
> independent businessman who sells you the product. Given that, what you
> should do is take your concerns to a lawyer and have him argue with the
> dealership that you are incompetent and therefore legally unable to
> enter into contracts.
>
> That's the only way you'll get out of this. It sounds pretty solid,
> too--because you are unable to distinguish a manufacturer from a
> dealer/businessman, and you sign contracts without reading them.
>
> How did you manage to buy a home, anyway? My guess is that there's a
> whole story behind that one--which you, no doubt, are claiming some sort
> of deception.



Yep, you're dealing with the product of the liberal inspired, "I'm
entitled" generation where the fault is *always* laid at the feet of
someone else.

Personal responsibility is not part of the equation...


--
JT

Just tooling through cyberspace in my ancient G4

In article <CvqGc.30041$a24.8812@attbi_s03>,
"Bob Travis" <e_quip@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > 3.
> > I think the dealer's offer to give you back the premiums is very generous.
>
> You could look at it that way, but isn't doing so an admission of "we should
> not have led you to believe you would both be covered by this insurance"?

No.

In article <CvqGc.30041$a24.8812@attbi_s03>,
"Bob Travis" <e_quip@hotmail.com> wrote:

> We can make the payments. We are just peeved that we were led to believe we
> were both covered by the contract.

You weren't "led" to believe anything.

Stop trying to make this an explicit act of someone else.

You LED YOURSELF into believing something, because you EXPLICITLY FAILED
to read the written contract that was right in front of your face. You
signed it without reading it. By your own admission, you signed it
without reading it.

You tell those Kentucky lawyers this story, exactly the way you told it
to us. See what their reaction is.

My father was a country lawyer. He had many good clients, many of them
good businessmen but also naive in so many ways. One day one of those
clients came to him with a sob story; turns out in a moment of weakness
and stupidity he had bought himself a time share. Now he was looking to
get out of it.

My father looked things over for a moment, and explained to this client
that he was liable for that contract. What was he thinking? He should
have known better than this. The client didn't want to hear all this,
but finally accepted it.

Please come back and tell us what these fine Kentucky lawyers have to
say. If they're over 55, they'll tell you you're stuck and that you're
an idiot. If they're under 55, they'll probably go on the
attack--regardless of the facts--and hope the finance insurance company
just wants to settle.

Tell us which way it goes. Either way, you're out some cash.

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 23:25:06 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>In article <ts0ke0t4tssut3m6kpir6d23a1n3edp514@4ax.com>,
> DragonRider <DragonRider1@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> >You can *always* buy everything outside the car itself somewhere else.
>> >You can buy the money somewhere else (the financing), and you should.
>>
>> This is the only place I saw that may need attention. With most all
>> the manufacturers offering APR's lower than you can get even at your
>> credit unions you are often better off taking the manufacturer
>> financing.
>
>Usually, the manufacturer financing at those special rates requires that
>you buy the car at full sticker price.

Not true. That would be listening to the guys at the dealership.
Besides, in many cases even if it were true you'd be better off
(though this applies mostly to the less expensive cars). The
manufacturer doesn't care how much you sell the car for as long as it
doesn't exceed 110-120% of the vehicles MSRP (per your credit).

>I can get financing at 3.99% now, off the street. (It was 3.49% for the
>longest time, until a few weeks ago.) I'm then free to negotiate
>whatever price I can negotiate, including rebates.

If you end up with a less than 4% and can take a huge rebate along the
way, then go for it! In limited cases you can get both a decent
rebate and lower financing which can come out better at the end of the
day. Regardless of the above, you can still negotiate the price of
the vehicle. Remember, the dealership sets the final price, not the
manufacturer. Thank the 'fixed price laws' for that one. (remember the
Nintendo/Playstation fiasco's?)

>(remember, the deal is usually special APR *or* rebates, but not both.
>The special APR is just a marketing gimmick, designed to get people's
>attention. Woe be to the guy who doesn't follow through by analyzing
>his entire costs in the deal.)
That marketting gimmick seemed to be very very good to a great many of
my customers in the past. Heck, if you can get financing that saves
you $5,000-7,500 or a rebate of $2,500 which is the better way to go
if your credit qualifies you for it? Several manufacturers are
starting to use rebates AND special financing (Chrysler, Mitsu, etc).
They do have the catch that not everyone will qualify, but usually
it's not too difficult. All you have to do is make a habit of paying
your bills. <grin>

>The only way to handle that is to get all the numbers up front and
>crunch them.

That is true. If you can get them to show you the numbers both ways
you are good.

"Bob Travis" <e_quip@hotmail.com> wrote
C wrote
> > 2.
> > Yes, the dealer's people lied to you. Yes, your outrage is at least
> somewhat
> > justified. But like the others said, I doubt you have legal recourse.
> What you
> > can do is tell your story all over town. This may humiliate (somewhat) the
> > dealer and teach others to read the contract before signing. If one cannot
> > understand a contract, yup, get a lawyer or seek some other, independent
> > resource to translate the contract for you.
>
> Friends I have and I know some of the best trial lawyers in Kentucky. I can
> raise a ruckus if I need to do so. I decided to get a feel for the basic
> inequity of the situation by starting here.

For the internet forum answer to your question, I think you'd be better off
consulting the newsgroups misc.legal and misc.legal.moderated . But again, this
would be only the "internet answer." Plenty of mediocrity and even incompetence
in so-called "professional" forums on the net.

Alternatively, you could google for info on contracts. What you describe
(someone verbally saying one thing about a contract but the written contract
saying something else) comes up a lot. My recollection is the courts by far tend
to side with what the written contract says. Why? Because every Tom, Dick, and
Harry could claim a salesman said one thing but the written contract said
another; give me money! This promotes chaos. (I'm not an attorney. I read a
lot.)

> > 3.
> > I think the dealer's offer to give you back the premiums is very generous.
>
> You could look at it that way, but isn't doing so an admission of "we should
> not have led you to believe you would both be covered by this insurance"?

Maybe but IMO not necessarily. The dealer could say it was simply trying to
maintain good customer relations; it gives money back anytime a customer
complains.

misc.legal and misc.legal.moderated may see it both ways (yours and mine),
though.

> > 4.
> > If you can't make the car payments, seek re-financing. I have read lenders
> tend
> > to be flexible when it comes to changes in people's circumstances. They
> want the
> > money to keep coming in, one way or another. Maybe it won't be the
> greatest
> > refinancing package, but you'll still be able to keep the car. Other
> newsgroups
> > might better be able to handle any queries you might have about
> re-financing
> > your car. Post again if you want suggestions.
>
> We can make the payments. We are just peeved that we were led to believe we
> were both covered by the contract.

I agree you should be peeved. At a minimum, by raising as much of a ruckus as
possible, the dealer might be more careful in the future.

Updates welcome. I think this is on-topic enough to continue here as you see
fit. Honda owners like to know how their car dealers are behaving.

Good luck with everything.