Honda Car Forum

On 9/18/09 8:51 AM, in article
b9380ec6-c2d5-4001-82a2-9932b09a84a1...oglegroups.com, "Otis"
<rev_otis_mcnatt@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Sep 18, 9:35*am, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>> "jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>
>>>> It sounds like your rotors are warped.
>>
>>> it's extremely rare for honda rotors to actually warp. *it is however
>>> extremely common for surface rust and incorrect torque procedure to create
>>> symptoms /like/ warping.
>>
>> Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
>> I have seen it happen on Toyotas, Dodges, GM products, etc. *Heat
>> and improper torqueing seems to cause these problems, and the warp
>> can be a real issue.
>>
>> There are however other possibilities, including the buildup of rust or
>> dirt which can cause the rotors or wheels to run out of plane. *Roundness
>> or eccentricity and planar trueness of wheels are other factors that
>> can occur.
>>
>> Tires are yet a third. Even Michelins can occasionally give a little
>> shudder.
>>
>> A really good shop can measure and correct these for the most part. *A good
>> shop does not necessarily mean a damn dealership. * A dealership might be
>> good, and an independent might be the pits, but take the time to find a shop
>> with good equipment and conscientious mechanics to look into this, as I
>> know how irritating it can be.
>
> Well, the reason I took it back to the dealership is because all of
> this work
> should be warranty work. I guess I'll take it back over there next
> week and
> have them do their thing. BTW, I rotated the wheels myself and used a
> torque wrench and tightened to specified torque. And I have driven
> every
> single mile since purchase.
>
> So, as far as the hood/fender gaps; it appears most of you don't feel
> it's
> much of an issue. I'm kind of on the fence about it.

Re your hood issue. The Hondas I have owned that were built in Japan
have/had absolutely perfect fit & finish; every gap aligned, every panel
perfectly flush with those surrounding it, etc. The one Honda I had that
was built in the US on the Accord line (a 2000 Acura TL) did not have
perfect fit & finish. There were minor but obvious misalignments around the
rear bumper and in a few other places. Check your serial number. If it
doesn't start with "J", you probably have your answer.

"Otis" <rev_otis_mcnatt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b9380ec6-c2d5-4001-82a2-9932b09a84a1@h30g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 18, 9:35 am, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
> "jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>
> >> It sounds like your rotors are warped.
>
> > it's extremely rare for honda rotors to actually warp. it is however
> > extremely common for surface rust and incorrect torque procedure to
> > create
> > symptoms /like/ warping.
>
> Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
> I have seen it happen on Toyotas, Dodges, GM products, etc. Heat
> and improper torqueing seems to cause these problems, and the warp
> can be a real issue.
>
> There are however other possibilities, including the buildup of rust or
> dirt which can cause the rotors or wheels to run out of plane. Roundness
> or eccentricity and planar trueness of wheels are other factors that
> can occur.
>
> Tires are yet a third. Even Michelins can occasionally give a little
> shudder.
>
> A really good shop can measure and correct these for the most part. A good
> shop does not necessarily mean a damn dealership. A dealership might be
> good, and an independent might be the pits, but take the time to find a
> shop
> with good equipment and conscientious mechanics to look into this, as I
> know how irritating it can be.

Well, the reason I took it back to the dealership is because all of
this work
should be warranty work. I guess I'll take it back over there next
week and
have them do their thing. BTW, I rotated the wheels myself and used a
torque wrench and tightened to specified torque. And I have driven
every
single mile since purchase.

So, as far as the hood/fender gaps; it appears most of you don't feel
it's
much of an issue. I'm kind of on the fence about it.

********
You can do some checking on it, but if it is a new car, I think it is
somewhat
unlikely that it had been wrecked. Ask the dealership. You can also check
CarFacts (which I would do if it really bothers you) to see if they have any
records on it.

I have been very unhappy with a lot of dealerships. Their structure is
often
not one which encourages the best repairs for your car. You can keep
taking your car back to them because it is under warranty if you like, but
if you get a boogermonkey working on it, you may never be satisified.

IMO, you should talk with the service writer and perhaps even the mechanic,
and make sure you are being heard. Otherwise you are just a number.

In the last few years, I have seen a lot of wild ass guessing by shop
mechanics,
replacement of expensive parts to see if it will fix a problem, flat rating,
cutting corners, etc. No matter where you take it, be sure they are
competent
and conscientious.

On Sep 18, 10:54*am, "E. Meyer" <epmeye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/18/09 8:51 AM, in article
> b9380ec6-c2d5-4001-82a2-9932b09a8...@h30g2000vbr.googlegroups.com, "Otis"
>
>
>
> <rev_otis_mcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 18, 9:35*am, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
> >> "jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>
> >>>> It sounds like your rotors are warped.
>
> >>> it's extremely rare for honda rotors to actually warp. *it is however
> >>> extremely common for surface rust and incorrect torque procedure to create
> >>> symptoms /like/ warping.
>
> >> Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
> >> I have seen it happen on Toyotas, Dodges, GM products, etc. *Heat
> >> and improper torqueing seems to cause these problems, and the warp
> >> can be a real issue.
>
> >> There are however other possibilities, including the buildup of rust or
> >> dirt which can cause the rotors or wheels to run out of plane. *Roundness
> >> or eccentricity and planar trueness of wheels are other factors that
> >> can occur.
>
> >> Tires are yet a third. Even Michelins can occasionally give a little
> >> shudder.
>
> >> A really good shop can measure and correct these for the most part. *A good
> >> shop does not necessarily mean a damn dealership. * A dealership might be
> >> good, and an independent might be the pits, but take the time to find a shop
> >> with good equipment and conscientious mechanics to look into this, as I
> >> know how irritating it can be.
>
> > Well, the reason I took it back to the dealership is because all of
> > this work
> > should be warranty work. *I guess I'll take it back over there next
> > week and
> > have them do their thing. *BTW, I rotated the wheels myself and used a
> > torque wrench and tightened to specified torque. *And I have driven
> > every
> > single mile since purchase.
>
> > So, as far as the hood/fender gaps; it appears most of you don't feel
> > it's
> > much of an issue. *I'm kind of on the fence about it.
>
> Re your hood issue. *The Hondas I have owned that were built in Japan
> have/had absolutely perfect fit & finish; every gap aligned, every panel
> perfectly flush with those surrounding it, etc. *The one Honda I had that
> was built in the US on the Accord line (a 2000 Acura TL) did not have
> perfect fit & finish. *There were minor but obvious misalignments around the
> rear bumper and in a few other places. *Check your serial number. *Ifit
> doesn't start with "J", you probably have your answer.

The car was built at a U.S. plant. I know that for sure. IIRC, the
vast
majority of Accords sold in U.S. are built there. As you said,
and as I told my wife last night, that probably explains it.
The transmission was built in Japan though. Yayyy!

On Sep 18, 10:57*am, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
> "Otis" <rev_otis_mcn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:b9380ec6-c2d5-4001-82a2-9932b09a84a1@h30g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 18, 9:35 am, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>
> > >> It sounds like your rotors are warped.
>
> > > it's extremely rare for honda rotors to actually warp. it is however
> > > extremely common for surface rust and incorrect torque procedure to
> > > create
> > > symptoms /like/ warping.
>
> > Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
> > I have seen it happen on Toyotas, Dodges, GM products, etc. Heat
> > and improper torqueing seems to cause these problems, and the warp
> > can be a real issue.
>
> > There are however other possibilities, including the buildup of rust or
> > dirt which can cause the rotors or wheels to run out of plane. Roundness
> > or eccentricity and planar trueness of wheels are other factors that
> > can occur.
>
> > Tires are yet a third. Even Michelins can occasionally give a little
> > shudder.
>
> > A really good shop can measure and correct these for the most part. A good
> > shop does not necessarily mean a damn dealership. A dealership might be
> > good, and an independent might be the pits, but take the time to find a
> > shop
> > with good equipment and conscientious mechanics to look into this, as I
> > know how irritating it can be.
>
> Well, the reason I took it back to the dealership is because all of
> this work
> should be warranty work. *I guess I'll take it back over there next
> week and
> have them do their thing. *BTW, I rotated the wheels myself and used a
> torque wrench and tightened to specified torque. *And I have driven
> every
> single mile since purchase.
>
> So, as far as the hood/fender gaps; it appears most of you don't feel
> it's
> much of an issue. *I'm kind of on the fence about it.
>
> ********
> You can do some checking on it, but if it is a new car, I think it is
> somewhat
> unlikely that it had been wrecked. *Ask the dealership. *You can alsocheck
> CarFacts (which I would do if it really bothers you) to see if they have any
> records on *it.

Oh no, I have no suspicion whatever that the car was wrecked. It was
brand spanking new when I got it. I just thought it might be an
issue, cosmetically speaking. The only thing I can figure is that
maybe the driver-side fender was made a wee bit narrow or something.
Everything's flush and tight...just that wider gap. I guess it's not
big
deal.

>
> I have been very unhappy with a lot of dealerships. *Their structure is
> often
> not one which encourages the best repairs for your car. * You can keep
> taking your car back to them because it is under warranty if you like, but
> if you get a boogermonkey working on it, you may never be satisified.

Yep, I've always serviced my own cars and NEVER go to a dealership
service dept. unless it's warranty work.

>
> IMO, you should talk with the service writer and perhaps even the mechanic,
> and make sure you are being heard. Otherwise you are just a number.
>
> In the last few years, I have seen a lot of wild ass guessing by shop
> mechanics,
> replacement of expensive parts to see if it will fix a problem, flat rating,
> cutting corners, etc. *No matter where you take it, be sure they are
> competent and conscientious.

Oh yeah, I know all about that. I hear ya.

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 19:45:06 -0700, jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>On 09/17/2009 07:20 PM, Otis wrote:
>> General questions which is why I included five NG's.
>>
>> I've actually had the car for almost a year (bought 9-25-08).
>>
>> The car had a mild steering wheel shimmy at 60-70 mph that
>> I noticed driving it home from the dealership the day I bought it.
>> The car had not been sitting on the lot long ( a week or so, being
>> recently delivered), so I doubt there were flat spots on the tires.
>> I decided to let it go and forget about it. Still, you don't expect
>> this with a brand new car with six miles on it and equipped with
>> Michelins. The shimmy pretty much stayed, but as I said,
>> it is mild. I rotated the tires at about 6500 miles a couple of
>> months ago, which is when the little Honda Maintenance Minder
>> told me to (cross to front as the manual said).
>>
>> Since then, I've noticed that, along with the usual shimmy, it gets
>> a good deal worse when I press the brake at highway speeds.
>> I doubt very seriously that the rotors are warped, but that the wheels
>> were somehow not completely balanced at the factory. And maybe
>> crossing the tires at rotation made the effect worse. That's my
>> guess.
>> I took the car out to the dlership today, explained, and the guy
>> wanted
>> to check the brakes (he said three hours for some reason) and possibly
>> *turn* the rotors. Why? I've never had rotors turned in my life;
>> if they
>> got too grooved I'd just replace them. Considering the time, and his
>> talking about turning rotors, I decided to hold off for now. Do you
>> think
>> I should take the car in and have them at least check the balance
>> on the wheels (free till the 1 year anniversary of purchase)? I could
>> just see those guys working on the car, and driving off with it
>> *worse*
>> than before. I've had this happen occasionally over the years.
>
>very common mistake. and one that allows the unscrupulous to soak you
>for new brakes more often than not.
>
>never allow any wheel monkey to re-bolt your wheels with air tools -
>should always be done by hand using a torque wrench.
>
>
>

Yeah but when you replace tires, a lot of shops use air tools. I
don't recall any checking the tires with a torque wrench. I do agree
with another poster that many shops over torque.

Observer wrote:

>
> Yeah but when you replace tires, a lot of shops use air tools. I
> don't recall any checking the tires with a torque wrench. I do agree
> with another poster that many shops over torque.

Standard practice these days is to snug the bolts with an air wrench and
a torque-limit stick, then do the final torque-down with a torque wrench.

Actually most shops have been doing that for 10+ years now. Time flies.


With my own cars in my own garage, I just use my air wrench because I
have a very good feel for the correct torque with that wrench at the air
line pressure setting I run. Every so often I check myself with a torque
wrench and I'm never off by more than a couple of ft-lb. But you can't
do that in a shop where you grab a different air wrench every time or
you change a tire. Also most of my cars are old enough to be rear-drives
with integral hub-rotor assemblies instead of "top hat" rotors that
slide over the wheel studs like FWD cars. They are far less sensitive to
over-torquing because the hub/rotor assembly is so much beefier and
doesn't have an alignment issue if you torque one stud/nut down too hard
before the other side gets torqued.

Observer <void@use.net> wrote:
>
>Yeah but when you replace tires, a lot of shops use air tools. I
>don't recall any checking the tires with a torque wrench. I do agree
>with another poster that many shops over torque.

Some use the sticks, some use torque wrenches, some don't use either one.
Most will use torque wrenches if you ask them politely. Tipping helps, too.
It takes a little more time to do it right.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote in message
> Standard practice these days is to snug the bolts with an air wrench and
> a torque-limit stick, then do the final torque-down with a torque wrench.
>
> Actually most shops have been doing that for 10+ years now. Time flies.
>

I have had discs warped on more than one occasion by the TorxStik approach.
They are NOT failsafe.

If you want to be sure, ask them to torque the nuts on with a manual torque
wrench, and specify that they use the star pattern suggested by most
manufacturers. Then you are sure.

"Otis" <rev_otis_mcnatt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:46e0adf3-8842-4fee-8280-b338ff4c231d@m11g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> General questions which is why I included five NG's.
>
> I've actually had the car for almost a year (bought 9-25-08).
>
> The car had a mild steering wheel shimmy at 60-70 mph that
> I noticed driving it home from the dealership the day I bought it.
> The car had not been sitting on the lot long ( a week or so, being
> recently delivered), so I doubt there were flat spots on the tires.
> I decided to let it go and forget about it. Still, you don't expect
> this with a brand new car with six miles on it and equipped with
> Michelins. The shimmy pretty much stayed, but as I said,
> it is mild. I rotated the tires at about 6500 miles a couple of
> months ago, which is when the little Honda Maintenance Minder
> told me to (cross to front as the manual said).
>
> Since then, I've noticed that, along with the usual shimmy, it gets
> a good deal worse when I press the brake at highway speeds.
> I doubt very seriously that the rotors are warped, but that the wheels
> were somehow not completely balanced at the factory. And maybe
> crossing the tires at rotation made the effect worse. That's my
> guess.
> I took the car out to the dlership today, explained, and the guy
> wanted
> to check the brakes (he said three hours for some reason) and possibly
> *turn* the rotors. Why? I've never had rotors turned in my life;
> if they
> got too grooved I'd just replace them. Considering the time, and his
> talking about turning rotors, I decided to hold off for now. Do you
> think
> I should take the car in and have them at least check the balance
> on the wheels (free till the 1 year anniversary of purchase)? I could
> just see those guys working on the car, and driving off with it
> *worse*
> than before. I've had this happen occasionally over the years.
>
> And a-n-o-t-h-e-r thing.....
>
> I was recently talking casually to a guy who runs a body shop. We
> were near my Accord and he immediately mentioned that the gap
> between the hood and fender on the left was not the same as the
> corresponding gap on the right side of the hood. And sure enough,
> it wasn't, and very noticeable even though I never noticed. He said
> that was very unusual for Honda and even asked me if the car had
> been wrecked. Pic link below. There is sunlight reflection a
> little
> on the left gap, but you should still be able to see it. The gap on
> left is noticeably bigger than the one on the right. The hood
> opens and closes nicely and everything seems tight and right,
> but it does look kind of bad. What do you guys think? Should
> I complain to Honda about it? Thanks a lot.
>
> http://s603.photobucket.com/albums/t...t=GEDC0178.jpg

Who gives a **** about your Accord RICEMOBILE? This is a ****ING Toyota
newsgroup. Get the **** out.

jim beam wrote:
> On 09/18/2009 01:38 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>> jim beam wrote:
>>> it's extremely rare for honda rotors to actually warp. it is however
>>> extremely common for surface rust and incorrect torque procedure to
>>> create symptoms /like/ warping.
>>>
>>> solution: clean the disk and wheel interface of rust. apply a little
>>> antiseize. re-bolt the wheel with a two or more stage torque process,
>>> using a torque wrench.
>>>
>>
>> I've never owned a Honda so I defer to your expertise - all the cars
>> I've owned had the standard warping rotors.
>
> it's probably for the reasons i said. try the scrape, anti-seize and
> torque wrench solution.
>
>
>> OTOH, I've never had a car
>> that was sensitive to rust on the wheel hubs.
>
> the two are connected. seriously, it's very unusual for the brake disk
> iron to actually warp.
>

That brake rotors don't warp is an interesting idea that I've not heard
before. What happens to me is that heavy braking, such as when slowing
down at the bottom of a hill, will tend to cause an oscillating feedback
at the steering wheel.

Hopefully, you're right and I've been seriously misinformed, after all,
it's cheaper to wire-brush wheel hubs than to machine them. Will try
this - thanks!

>
>> Does this happen mostly
>> with steel wheels or alloy wheels?
>
> it's more noticeable with steel..
>
>
>>
>> Those grease monkeys sure do like to over-torque those wheel nuts!
>