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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 28 May 2009, 09:42 pm
robb
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Posts: n/a
Default '93 civic failed emission or suspicious emision test ?

Need some help determining if emision failed due to real problem
and how to fix
*OR* was this a suspect emission tester and i just wait for
different tester ?
what to do ?

I am original owner of '93 civic Si HB 205,450 miles.

I do most all basic maintenence (filters/oil/etc) and repairs
(eg. brake pads/ radiator replace/master cylinder replace/
ignitor replace/ replace distributor, etc ) honda dealer gets the
bigger invasive stuff like timing belt, water pumps, clutch ...

The car has passed emissions by no small margins till this year
and it FAILED miserably ?
*BUT* only on the 25/25 test ?

Only 5,400 highway miles were put on the car from 2008 test to
2009 test.

2009 numbers
===========================
....................25/25 test............50/15
----------------------................---------
HC ppm .....288.....................65
CO %..........9.38 **...............0.20
NOx ppm....345.....................255
RPM............2718..................1971
CO + CO2 %....18.3..............15.1


2008 numbers
===========================
.....................25/25 test...........50/15
-------------------------.............---------
HC ppm .....73........................70
CO %..........0.22.....................0.23
NOx ppm...236......................212
RPM...........2100.....................1925
CO + CO2 % 15.1.................15.1


Ques 1:
Does this test failure look like real (possible) numbers ? that
is, how does it fail 25/25 ***SO *** bad and not the 50/15 ?

Ques 2:
if these are real numbers then what repair am i looking to fix
this ?

Ques 3:
Can the tester muck up the test and get that 25/25 test failure ?
Not that he wanted to muck it up but maybe a little incompetent
because he had these several problems ...

- Could not get the tack sensor in the right place , kept
moving it all around like on top dash , center dash, on mirror ,
under dash, on windshield, on the hood , under the hood ? could
not seem to find a place that gave good tach readings and kept
saying, "your RPM is bad"

- He tried the clip on tach wire but could not get the wire
connected to machine correctly.

- at some point during testing he could not seem to get the gear
shifted so he left it in 1st and ran the car up to about 20
miles per hour in 1st gear the car was running really loud so i
peeked in at the tach which up around 5000-6000 yes that is 5K-6K
and held it there for about 30 seconds waiting for the machine to
do something ?


Anyways, i would appreciate some helpful advice on what to fix or
do please

robb

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 28 May 2009, 11:59 pm
Steve W.
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: '93 civic failed emission or suspicious emision test ?

robb wrote:
> Need some help determining if emision failed due to real problem
> and how to fix
> *OR* was this a suspect emission tester and i just wait for
> different tester ?
> what to do ?
>
> I am original owner of '93 civic Si HB 205,450 miles.
>
> I do most all basic maintenence (filters/oil/etc) and repairs
> (eg. brake pads/ radiator replace/master cylinder replace/
> ignitor replace/ replace distributor, etc ) honda dealer gets the
> bigger invasive stuff like timing belt, water pumps, clutch ...
>
> The car has passed emissions by no small margins till this year
> and it FAILED miserably ?
> *BUT* only on the 25/25 test ?
>
> Only 5,400 highway miles were put on the car from 2008 test to
> 2009 test.
>
> 2009 numbers
> ===========================
> ...................25/25 test............50/15
> ----------------------................---------
> HC ppm .....288.....................65
> CO %..........9.38 **...............0.20
> NOx ppm....345.....................255
> RPM............2718..................1971
> CO + CO2 %....18.3..............15.1
>
>
> 2008 numbers
> ===========================
> ....................25/25 test...........50/15
> -------------------------.............---------
> HC ppm .....73........................70
> CO %..........0.22.....................0.23
> NOx ppm...236......................212
> RPM...........2100.....................1925
> CO + CO2 % 15.1.................15.1
>
>
> Ques 1:
> Does this test failure look like real (possible) numbers ? that
> is, how does it fail 25/25 ***SO *** bad and not the 50/15 ?
>
> Ques 2:
> if these are real numbers then what repair am i looking to fix
> this ?
>
> Ques 3:
> Can the tester muck up the test and get that 25/25 test failure ?
> Not that he wanted to muck it up but maybe a little incompetent
> because he had these several problems ...
>
> - Could not get the tack sensor in the right place , kept
> moving it all around like on top dash , center dash, on mirror ,
> under dash, on windshield, on the hood , under the hood ? could
> not seem to find a place that gave good tach readings and kept
> saying, "your RPM is bad"
>
> - He tried the clip on tach wire but could not get the wire
> connected to machine correctly.
>
> - at some point during testing he could not seem to get the gear
> shifted so he left it in 1st and ran the car up to about 20
> miles per hour in 1st gear the car was running really loud so i
> peeked in at the tach which up around 5000-6000 yes that is 5K-6K
> and held it there for about 30 seconds waiting for the machine to
> do something ?
>
>
> Anyways, i would appreciate some helpful advice on what to fix or
> do please
>
> robb
>


Sounds like you need to get it tested by a different tester. Incorrect
rpm data and not shifting the gears will screw up the test easily.

--
Steve W.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 29 May 2009, 09:59 am
ben91932
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: '93 civic failed emission or suspicious emision test ?

The CO is way high regardless of RPM.
Something has forced the FI pig rich.
Further diagnosis is next.
HTH
Ben


>
> 2009 numbers
> ===========================
> ...................25/25 test............50/15
> ----------------------................---------
> HC ppm .....288.....................65
> CO %..........9.38 **...............0.20
> NOx ppm....345.....................255
> RPM............2718..................1971
> CO + CO2 %....18.3..............15.1
>
> 2008 numbers
> ===========================
> ....................25/25 test...........50/15
> -------------------------.............---------
> HC ppm .....73........................70
> CO %..........0.22.....................0.23
> *NOx ppm...236......................212
> RPM...........2100.....................1925
> CO + CO2 % * 15.1.................15.1
>

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 29 May 2009, 02:41 pm
robb
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: '93 civic failed emission or suspicious emision test ?


"Steve W." <csr684NOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:gvnq28$cn1$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> robb wrote:
> > Need some help determining if emision failed due to real

problem
> > and how to fix
> > *OR* was this a suspect emission tester and i just wait for
> > different tester ?
> > what to do ?

[trim]
>
> Sounds like you need to get it tested by a different tester.

Incorrect
> rpm data and not shifting the gears will screw up the test

easily.
> --
> Steve W.
>


Thanks Steve,
for the reply and advice.

robb


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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 29 May 2009, 02:48 pm
robb
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: '93 civic failed emission or suspicious emision test ?


"ben91932" <benteaches@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:67d0ac36-9abe-4b16-a248-502bdcc10af8@n4g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> The CO is way high regardless of RPM.
> Something has forced the FI pig rich.
> Further diagnosis is next.
> HTH
> Ben
>
> 2009 numbers
> ===========================
> ...................25/25 test............50/15
> ----------------------................---------
> HC ppm .....288.....................65
> CO %..........9.38 **...............0.20
> NOx ppm....345.....................255
> RPM............2718..................1971
> CO + CO2 %....18.3..............15.1
>
> 2008 numbers
> ===========================
> ....................25/25 test...........50/15
> -------------------------.............---------
> HC ppm .....73........................70
> CO %..........0.22.....................0.23
> NOx ppm...236......................212
> RPM...........2100.....................1925
> CO + CO2 % 15.1.................15.1
>


Thanks Ben,
for the reply and help.

Would you not expect some scaling of failure into the 50/15 test
considering the severity of failure in the 25/25 test ?

After researching some , would you expect a Oxygen Sensor
malfunction or something else ?

Can the original O2 sensor last 18 yrs ? The O2 sensor is the
original :}

Thanks again,
robb

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 29 May 2009, 07:00 pm
Jim Yanik
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: '93 civic failed emission or suspicious emision test ?

"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in news:i6-
dnX9UvptHpr3XnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@earthlink.com:

>
> "ben91932" <benteaches@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:67d0ac36-9abe-4b16-a248-502bdcc10af8@n4g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
>> The CO is way high regardless of RPM.
>> Something has forced the FI pig rich.
>> Further diagnosis is next.
>> HTH
>> Ben
>>
>> 2009 numbers
>> ===========================
>> ...................25/25 test............50/15
>> ----------------------................---------
>> HC ppm .....288.....................65
>> CO %..........9.38 **...............0.20
>> NOx ppm....345.....................255
>> RPM............2718..................1971
>> CO + CO2 %....18.3..............15.1
>>
>> 2008 numbers
>> ===========================
>> ....................25/25 test...........50/15
>> -------------------------.............---------
>> HC ppm .....73........................70
>> CO %..........0.22.....................0.23
>> NOx ppm...236......................212
>> RPM...........2100.....................1925
>> CO + CO2 % 15.1.................15.1
>>

>
> Thanks Ben,
> for the reply and help.
>
> Would you not expect some scaling of failure into the 50/15 test
> considering the severity of failure in the 25/25 test ?
>
> After researching some , would you expect a Oxygen Sensor
> malfunction or something else ?
>
> Can the original O2 sensor last 18 yrs ? The O2 sensor is the
> original :}
>
> Thanks again,
> robb
>
>


O2 sensors are spec'd to last 60-100K miles.
They can get "slow" before that,and affect emissions and mileage even
sooner.

Google is your friend.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 30 May 2009, 07:19 am
robb
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: '93 civic failed emission or suspicious emision test ?


"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9C1ACBB5821C2jyanikkuanet@74.209.136.83...
> "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in news:i6-
> dnX9UvptHpr3XnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@earthlink.com:
>
> > "ben91932" <benteaches@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >

news:67d0ac36-9abe-4b16-a248-502bdcc10af8@n4g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> >> The CO is way high regardless of RPM.
> >> Something has forced the FI pig rich.
> >> Further diagnosis is next.
> >> Ben
> >>
> >> 2009 numbers
> >> ===========================
> >> ...................25/25 test............50/15
> >> ----------------------................---------
> >> HC ppm .....288.....................65
> >> CO %..........9.38 **...............0.20
> >> 2008 numbers
> >> -------------------------.............---------
> >> HC ppm .....73........................70
> >> CO %..........0.22.....................0.23

> >
> > Thanks Ben,
> > Can the original O2 sensor last 18 yrs ? The O2 sensor is

the
> > original :}
> >
> >

> O2 sensors are spec'd to last 60-100K miles.
> They can get "slow" before that,and affect emissions and

mileage even
> sooner.
>
> Google is your friend.
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik at kua.net
>


Thanks Jim,
for the helpful info.

I say it is original. I think it is the original.
Does honda service ever replace O2 sensor in any of there regular
service intervals ? I do not remeber ever seeing the O2 sensor
being replaced but i did take the car in for whatever the **BIG**
service intervals were ( ? 90K / 120K / 150K ? the numbers escape
my memory)

Oh well, time to start replacing stuff.

So, in other posts i read... Denso seems to make good O2 sensors
? Is that a good brand to look for ?

Thanks for any helpful opinions and advice,

robb




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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 30 May 2009, 08:28 am
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: '93 civic failed emission or suspicious emision test ?

"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in
news:LKydnT1nJZ2AubzXnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@earthlink.co m:


<snip>


>
> I say it is original. I think it is the original.
> Does honda service ever replace O2 sensor in any of there regular
> service intervals ? I do not remeber ever seeing the O2 sensor
> being replaced but i did take the car in for whatever the **BIG**
> service intervals were ( ? 90K / 120K / 150K ? the numbers escape
> my memory)
>
> Oh well, time to start replacing stuff.





Did you even bother to read Steve W's post?

There may be nothing at all wrong with your car, but there was LOTS wrong
with the technician's actions durng the test.




--
Tegger

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 30 May 2009, 08:48 am
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: '93 civic failed emission or suspicious emision test ?

Tegger wrote:
> "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in
> news:LKydnT1nJZ2AubzXnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@earthlink.co m:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>> I say it is original. I think it is the original.
>> Does honda service ever replace O2 sensor in any of there regular
>> service intervals ? I do not remeber ever seeing the O2 sensor
>> being replaced but i did take the car in for whatever the **BIG**
>> service intervals were ( ? 90K / 120K / 150K ? the numbers escape
>> my memory)
>>
>> Oh well, time to start replacing stuff.

>
>
>
>
> Did you even bother to read Steve W's post?
>
> There may be nothing at all wrong with your car, but there was LOTS wrong
> with the technician's actions durng the test.
>
>
>
>


i'm not sure i buy that - this guy's story doesn't add up. testing
machines won't accept a test unless the test protocol is followed
closely, and 2718rpm at 25mph is not first gear like the op alleges.
the machine checks for rpm's and won't accept if not in range. and not
only must they be in range, they must be relatively constant. if
they're not constant, the machine extends the test until they are and
held there for the requisite test duration.

bottom line - this is probably a valid test and a simple failure. given
that the op hasn't changed the sensor in 18 years, he probably hasn't
changed plugs or leads either - a much more likely cause of incomplete
combustion and high readings.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 30 May 2009, 10:09 am
robb
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: '93 civic failed emission or suspicious emision test ?


"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:8ZWdneEn_a6spLzXnZ2dnUVZ_jednZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Tegger wrote:
> > "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in
> > news:LKydnT1nJZ2AubzXnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@earthlink.co m:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> I say it is original. I think it is the original.
> >> Does honda service ever replace O2 sensor in any of there

regular
> >> service intervals ? I do not remeber ever seeing the O2

sensor
> >> being replaced but i did take the car in for whatever the

**BIG**
> >> service intervals were ( ? 90K / 120K / 150K ? the numbers

escape
> >> my memory)
> >>
> >> Oh well, time to start replacing stuff.

> >
> > Did you even bother to read Steve W's post?
> >
> > There may be nothing at all wrong with your car, but there

was LOTS wrong
> > with the technician's actions durng the test.
> >

>
> i'm not sure i buy that - this guy's story doesn't add up.

testing
> machines won't accept a test unless the test protocol is

followed
> closely, and 2718rpm at 25mph is not first gear like the op

alleges.
> the machine checks for rpm's and won't accept if not in range.

and not
> only must they be in range, they must be relatively constant.

if
> they're not constant, the machine extends the test until they

are and
> held there for the requisite test duration.
>
> bottom line - this is probably a valid test and a simple

failure. given
> that the op hasn't changed the sensor in 18 years, he probably

hasn't
> changed plugs or leads either - a much more likely cause of

incomplete
> combustion and high readings.
>


Hello OP here ...
While i applaud your deductive reasoning on my story to keep me
honest , the story is a truthful rendition of what occured
durring the emission test.

the only thing i allege is what i saw, which was a big 20
something on the emission monitor and peeking at the tachometer
that was in the car and seeing it hovering around 5-6k or
there abouts for about 30 seconds (while the tester watched the
monitor) and me realizing that for the 25/25 test it seems he
never shifted out of first gear , next he ground the gears again
a bit and managed to get it into to second for the next test.

I was not really paying attention to the testing until i heard
the engine reving really high, i didn't remember that during any
past test and when he slightly ground the gears i became more
watchful and started adding up all the other stuff he did like
move the tach sensor all around the car and the comment about the
bad RPM made me wonder if the tester guy just flubbed my test or
is it reallistic to think that 1 year and 5400 miles later my car
has gone from clean to enviro-mean,

maybe the emmision machine was reading 2700 when he had it reved
up to 5K ? i do not know but someone probably knows there are
alot of experienced and smart people here.

anyways that seemed like alot of useless fill for my questions
which were... can these emission tester guys muck up the test
like that or do i really need to start looking for the problems
and more importantly what to concentrate on ?

I do appreciate the help.

robb


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