Honda Car Forum

jim beam wrote:
> Dan C wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:43:45 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> no dude - did you not read what i explained about exactly /why/ it
>>> occurs after a very short run like this??? true, it shouldn't occur
>>> after a warmup, and in that case, you /would/ investigate, but after a
>>> few seconds cold? gas stink is /inevitable/, and for the reasons
>>> stated.
>>
>> Absolute and unadulterated bullshit.
>>
>> I have *never* smelled gas on *ANY* fuel-injected car (Honda or
>> otherwise), regardless of how long it was run, unless there was a
>> problem/
>> leak somewhere.
>
> then gasoline evaporates instantly when squirted on cold metal? i guess
> my phase change data is all ****ed up then!
>
>
>>
>> You're full of shit. Quit spreading FUD, and/or just be quiet when
>> you don't know what you're talking about.
>
> no dude, fud is bleating about taking a sub-year old car, with a
> spotless manufacture record, for a warranty check-up when you don't know
> basic physics.
Hmmm,
Smelling gas when cold, not smelling when warm, whatever, is the gas
mileage typical normal? Then what's the problem? Let's stop beating dead
horse no more!!!! I only look under the hood if mileage is not
normal(10Km/liter)

On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 18:52:41 -0800, jim beam wrote:

>> I have *never* smelled gas on *ANY* fuel-injected car (Honda or
>> otherwise), regardless of how long it was run, unless there was a
>> problem/ leak somewhere.

> then gasoline evaporates instantly when squirted on cold metal? i guess
> my phase change data is all ****ed up then!

WTF are you talking about with "squirting on cold metal"??? If there's
fuel squirting on cold metal (outside the cylinder), then there's a
****ing leak somewhere, and that's a problem. Simple, no?

To repeat, in a *properly* working (modern, fuel injected) engine, there
should *never* be any smell of gasoline, regardless of the temperature.
That's it. There are no exceptions, and no amount of twisting by you
will change that.


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Dan C wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 18:52:41 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>
>>> I have *never* smelled gas on *ANY* fuel-injected car (Honda or
>>> otherwise), regardless of how long it was run, unless there was a
>>> problem/ leak somewhere.
>
>> then gasoline evaporates instantly when squirted on cold metal? i guess
>> my phase change data is all ****ed up then!
>
> WTF are you talking about with "squirting on cold metal"??? If there's
> fuel squirting on cold metal (outside the cylinder), then there's a
> ****ing leak somewhere, and that's a problem. Simple, no?

go back and read the goddamned thread dan. right now, you're picking up
dog ends.


>
> To repeat, in a *properly* working (modern, fuel injected) engine, there
> should *never* be any smell of gasoline, regardless of the temperature.
> That's it. There are no exceptions, and no amount of twisting by you
> will change that.

read the goddamned thread.

"jim beam" <retard-trap@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:fbCdnebqJf4ZcDDUnZ2dnUVZ_tmWnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "Dillon Pyron" <invaliddmpyron@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:r0maq4d6iqnov3tnsqrg5rfmol5s5icff8@4ax.com...
>>> 08 Fit. We left it sitting in the dirveway for a while, and I pulled
>>> it in in the evening. The engine probably ran for 45 seconds, max.
>>> When I got out, there was the strong smell of unburned gasoline. Was
>>> this just a startup artifact, or maybe a cold run (the funky little
>>> blue thermometer was still on)?
>>> --
>>>
>> Dillon,
>>
>> I asked the senior mechanic at work, Jim, if gas smells (not in my work
>> truck, which is diesel) are normal when the engine is cold. He said,
>> "Yeah, if you have a leak." Giving him more of the details he said the
>> most likely problem in a new car is a rolled seal between one of the
>> injectors and the fuel rail, in an older one the same seals harden when
>> cold. The seals get more pliable when warm and the smell goes away. He
>> said that gas smells, warm or cold, always mean a leak of some sort.
>>
>> Mike
>
> and my friend's friend says you need to go to the doctor and get your nose
> checked out.


Your friend's friend is a psychic doctor? Or is that your odd way of
claiming you are infinitely more qualified than a career auto mechanic?
Maybe you are just fond of wacky non sequiturs, since I didn't mention
anything about my sense of smell.

Dillon asked an honest question and I provided an honest answer from a
source I trust. He is entitled to know what I was told by a qualified
mechanic, whether it fits your explanation, or mine, or neither. What he
does with the info is his business. I would have reported it all the same,
though I have the distinct impression you would not have been so impartial.
I have no problem with people disagreeing with me - I have certainly been
wrong from time to time, often quite publicly - but the boorishness of your
posts is inexcusable. As you may have guessed, what you think no longer has
any importance to me, and I am sure the feeling is mutual... so why the
snide comments?

Mike

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <retard-trap@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:fbCdnebqJf4ZcDDUnZ2dnUVZ_tmWnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>> "Dillon Pyron" <invaliddmpyron@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>>> news:r0maq4d6iqnov3tnsqrg5rfmol5s5icff8@4ax.com...
>>>> 08 Fit. We left it sitting in the dirveway for a while, and I pulled
>>>> it in in the evening. The engine probably ran for 45 seconds, max.
>>>> When I got out, there was the strong smell of unburned gasoline. Was
>>>> this just a startup artifact, or maybe a cold run (the funky little
>>>> blue thermometer was still on)?
>>>> --
>>>>
>>> Dillon,
>>>
>>> I asked the senior mechanic at work, Jim, if gas smells (not in my work
>>> truck, which is diesel) are normal when the engine is cold. He said,
>>> "Yeah, if you have a leak." Giving him more of the details he said the
>>> most likely problem in a new car is a rolled seal between one of the
>>> injectors and the fuel rail, in an older one the same seals harden when
>>> cold. The seals get more pliable when warm and the smell goes away. He
>>> said that gas smells, warm or cold, always mean a leak of some sort.
>>>
>>> Mike
>> and my friend's friend says you need to go to the doctor and get your nose
>> checked out.
>
>
> Your friend's friend is a psychic doctor? Or is that your odd way of
> claiming you are infinitely more qualified than a career auto mechanic?
> Maybe you are just fond of wacky non sequiturs, since I didn't mention
> anything about my sense of smell.
>
> Dillon asked an honest question and I provided an honest answer from a
> source I trust. He is entitled to know what I was told by a qualified
> mechanic, whether it fits your explanation, or mine, or neither. What he
> does with the info is his business. I would have reported it all the same,
> though I have the distinct impression you would not have been so impartial.
> I have no problem with people disagreeing with me - I have certainly been
> wrong from time to time, often quite publicly - but the boorishness of your
> posts is inexcusable. As you may have guessed, what you think no longer has
> any importance to me, and I am sure the feeling is mutual... so why the
> snide comments?
>
> Mike
>
>

dude, you're being an ass. the explanation i gave you is a dumbed down
version of the physics involved. it happens, whether you like it or not.

as for your "friend", if someone came to me and said they could smell
gas, i'd say you needed to check for leaks. BUT /i/ would also ask what
the situation was, and given the facts from the OP, and knowing the
science, the reality goes beyond that. and if your "friend" /doesn't/
ask those kinds of questions, it's because they ant you out of their
hair ASAP.

oh, the temerity for calling a drama queen for what they are. left to
your own devices, you'd have had the whole damned neighborhood burned
down by now just to prove a point.

jim beam wrote:

> Michael Pardee wrote:
>
>> "jim beam" <retard-trap@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> news:fbCdnebqJf4ZcDDUnZ2dnUVZ_tmWnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>
>>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Dillon Pyron" <invaliddmpyron@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:r0maq4d6iqnov3tnsqrg5rfmol5s5icff8@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>> 08 Fit. We left it sitting in the dirveway for a while, and I pulled
>>>>> it in in the evening. The engine probably ran for 45 seconds, max.
>>>>> When I got out, there was the strong smell of unburned gasoline. Was
>>>>> this just a startup artifact, or maybe a cold run (the funky little
>>>>> blue thermometer was still on)?
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>> Dillon,
>>>>
>>>> I asked the senior mechanic at work, Jim, if gas smells (not in my
>>>> work truck, which is diesel) are normal when the engine is cold. He
>>>> said, "Yeah, if you have a leak." Giving him more of the details he
>>>> said the most likely problem in a new car is a rolled seal between
>>>> one of the injectors and the fuel rail, in an older one the same
>>>> seals harden when cold. The seals get more pliable when warm and the
>>>> smell goes away. He said that gas smells, warm or cold, always mean
>>>> a leak of some sort.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>
>>> and my friend's friend says you need to go to the doctor and get your
>>> nose checked out.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your friend's friend is a psychic doctor? Or is that your odd way of
>> claiming you are infinitely more qualified than a career auto
>> mechanic? Maybe you are just fond of wacky non sequiturs, since I
>> didn't mention anything about my sense of smell.
>>
>> Dillon asked an honest question and I provided an honest answer from a
>> source I trust. He is entitled to know what I was told by a qualified
>> mechanic, whether it fits your explanation, or mine, or neither. What
>> he does with the info is his business. I would have reported it all
>> the same, though I have the distinct impression you would not have
>> been so impartial. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me -
>> I have certainly been wrong from time to time, often quite publicly -
>> but the boorishness of your posts is inexcusable. As you may have
>> guessed, what you think no longer has any importance to me, and I am
>> sure the feeling is mutual... so why the snide comments?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
> dude, you're being an ass. the explanation i gave you is a dumbed down
> version of the physics involved. it happens, whether you like it or not.
>
> as for your "friend", if someone came to me and said they could smell
> gas, i'd say you needed to check for leaks. BUT /i/ would also ask what
> the situation was, and given the facts from the OP, and knowing the
> science, the reality goes beyond that. and if your "friend" /doesn't/
> ask those kinds of questions, it's because they ant you out of their
> hair ASAP.
>
> oh, the temerity for calling a drama queen for what they are. left to
> your own devices, you'd have had the whole damned neighborhood burned
> down by now just to prove a point.


Wassamattah beam??? Them turd feedin' boids peckin' away at you again?

JT

"jim beam" <retard-trap@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:aqqdnaLdErRNEzPUnZ2dnUVZ_jSWnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
> dude, you're being an ass. the explanation i gave you is a dumbed down
> version of the physics involved. it happens, whether you like it or not.

Dumbed down doesn't begin to cover it - your explanation is about as dumb as
they come. Where in the world did you get that stupid idea about the
injectors wetting the inside of the intake? You can't be that grossly
ignorant of basic fuel system operation. You must know injectors produce a
fine mist, and that if the injectors don't do that they have to be cleaned
or replaced. How could you not know that the manifold is a wind tunnel at
that point, which makes it impossible for the manifold to collect gasoline?
Have you *ever* flow and pattern tested a fuel injector? No, you obviously
haven't - you wouldn't parade your ignorance if you had ever seen it with
your own eyes. That is to say nothing of the ludicrous concept that the
gasoline vapors would pour past the closed throttle plate and through the
air filter and intake plumbing to create the "strong smell" the OP reported.

I'm sure you will favor us with the equations for your "physics" for all
that - you are bragging you understand all that. You can even "dumb it down"
by leaving out the partial pressures of the more volatile components of the
winter blend being used and assume it is all octane. It isn't even all that
hard - by estimating the cross-section of the intake manifold branches and
using the known displacement and idle RPMs you can calculate the peak and
average air velocities past the injectors. With your superior knowledge of
physics I'm sure you can calculate the average particle size of the injector
output for the rated rail pressure and the fluid flow equations for the
dispersal in the intake, including the lateral displacement of the plume in
the previously calculated air stream. You can also calculate the diffusion
past the obstacles I mentioned (you can assume a 500 millibar drop across
the throttle plate at idle - it will be close enough for this purpose and
will allow you to estimate the effective throttle opening at idle) to arrive
at the vapor outflow rate at the mouth of the intake. Otherwise stop with
your bogus claim of "physics." If you nail the equations I won't even take
exception at your petty insults. Otherwise we will know you are a loudmouth
know-nothing... as if we really doubted it now.

Put up or shut up.

Mike

On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 19:31:26 -0800, jim beam wrote:

>> To repeat, in a *properly* working (modern, fuel injected) engine,
>> there should *never* be any smell of gasoline, regardless of the
>> temperature. That's it. There are no exceptions, and no amount of
>> twisting by you will change that.

> read the goddamned thread.

Nah. I've already wasted too much time on you. You're delusional, or
stupid. I can't tell which.


--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
Ahhhhhhh!: http://brandybuck.site40.net/pics/relieve.jpg

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <retard-trap@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:aqqdnaLdErRNEzPUnZ2dnUVZ_jSWnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> dude, you're being an ass. the explanation i gave you is a dumbed down
>> version of the physics involved. it happens, whether you like it or not.
>
> Dumbed down doesn't begin to cover it - your explanation is about as dumb as
> they come. Where in the world did you get that stupid idea about the
> injectors wetting the inside of the intake? You can't be that grossly
> ignorant of basic fuel system operation. You must know injectors produce a
> fine mist, and that if the injectors don't do that they have to be cleaned
> or replaced.

oh brother - where do we start with you michael? how about we start
with the fact that gasoline is liquid. it takes time and energy to
evaporate. add air to the mix, and the evaporation rate changes. and
if it's sprayed onto cold metal, which it is until the engine warms up,
a significant portion /remains/ liquid. that's why injection runs rich
on cold engines. if it didn't, there'd be no need to do that!


> How could you not know that the manifold is a wind tunnel at
> that point, which makes it impossible for the manifold to collect gasoline?

nope.


> Have you *ever* flow and pattern tested a fuel injector? No, you obviously
> haven't

oh dear, wrong again.



- you wouldn't parade your ignorance if you had ever seen it with
> your own eyes. That is to say nothing of the ludicrous concept that the
> gasoline vapors would pour past the closed throttle plate and through the
> air filter and intake plumbing to create the "strong smell" the OP reported.
>
> I'm sure you will favor us with the equations for your "physics" for all
> that - you are bragging you understand all that. You can even "dumb it down"
> by leaving out the partial pressures of the more volatile components of the
> winter blend being used and assume it is all octane. It isn't even all that
> hard - by estimating the cross-section of the intake manifold branches and
> using the known displacement and idle RPMs you can calculate the peak and
> average air velocities past the injectors.

red herring if you don't understand basics like evaporation.


> With your superior knowledge of
> physics I'm sure you can calculate the average particle size of the injector
> output for the rated rail pressure and the fluid flow equations for the
> dispersal in the intake, including the lateral displacement of the plume in
> the previously calculated air stream. You can also calculate the diffusion
> past the obstacles

er, intake mass flow is not "diffusion".



> I mentioned (you can assume a 500 millibar drop across
> the throttle plate at idle - it will be close enough for this purpose and
> will allow you to estimate the effective throttle opening at idle) to arrive
> at the vapor outflow rate at the mouth of the intake. Otherwise stop with
> your bogus claim of "physics."

translate pressure drop into evaporation at ambient. show the cooling
effect if you want to show off.


> If you nail the equations I won't even take
> exception at your petty insults. Otherwise we will know you are a loudmouth
> know-nothing... as if we really doubted it now.
>
> Put up or shut up.
>
> Mike
>
>

so why run rich on cold start mike?

jim beam wrote:
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "jim beam" <retard-trap@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> news:aqqdnaLdErRNEzPUnZ2dnUVZ_jSWnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>> dude, you're being an ass. the explanation i gave you is a dumbed
>>> down version of the physics involved. it happens, whether you like
>>> it or not.
>>
>> Dumbed down doesn't begin to cover it - your explanation is about as
>> dumb as they come. Where in the world did you get that stupid idea
>> about the injectors wetting the inside of the intake? You can't be
>> that grossly ignorant of basic fuel system operation. You must know
>> injectors produce a fine mist, and that if the injectors don't do that
>> they have to be cleaned or replaced.
>
> oh brother - where do we start with you michael? how about we start
> with the fact that gasoline is liquid. it takes time and energy to
> evaporate. add air to the mix, and the evaporation rate changes. and
> if it's sprayed onto cold metal, which it is until the engine warms up,
> a significant portion /remains/ liquid. that's why injection runs rich
> on cold engines. if it didn't, there'd be no need to do that!
>
>
>> How could you not know that the manifold is a wind tunnel at that
>> point, which makes it impossible for the manifold to collect gasoline?
>
> nope.
>
>
>> Have you *ever* flow and pattern tested a fuel injector? No, you
>> obviously haven't
>
> oh dear, wrong again.
>
>
>
> - you wouldn't parade your ignorance if you had ever seen it with
>> your own eyes. That is to say nothing of the ludicrous concept that
>> the gasoline vapors would pour past the closed throttle plate and
>> through the air filter and intake plumbing to create the "strong
>> smell" the OP reported.
>>
>> I'm sure you will favor us with the equations for your "physics" for
>> all that - you are bragging you understand all that. You can even
>> "dumb it down" by leaving out the partial pressures of the more
>> volatile components of the winter blend being used and assume it is
>> all octane. It isn't even all that hard - by estimating the
>> cross-section of the intake manifold branches and using the known
>> displacement and idle RPMs you can calculate the peak and average air
>> velocities past the injectors.
>
> red herring if you don't understand basics like evaporation.
>
>
>> With your superior knowledge of physics I'm sure you can calculate the
>> average particle size of the injector output for the rated rail
>> pressure and the fluid flow equations for the dispersal in the intake,
>> including the lateral displacement of the plume in the previously
>> calculated air stream. You can also calculate the diffusion past the
>> obstacles
>
> er, intake mass flow is not "diffusion".
>
>
>
>> I mentioned (you can assume a 500 millibar drop across the throttle
>> plate at idle - it will be close enough for this purpose and will
>> allow you to estimate the effective throttle opening at idle) to
>> arrive at the vapor outflow rate at the mouth of the intake. Otherwise
>> stop with your bogus claim of "physics."
>
> translate pressure drop into evaporation at ambient. show the cooling
> effect if you want to show off.
>
>
>> If you nail the equations I won't even take exception at your petty
>> insults. Otherwise we will know you are a loudmouth know-nothing... as
>> if we really doubted it now.
>>
>> Put up or shut up.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
> so why run rich on cold start mike?


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