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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 15 Sep 2008, 01:49 am
Forrest
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Default Torquing of head bolts ?

I finally got around to getting the head back on my 89 Accord. I didn't have
it skimmed or valves rebuilt. I know my rings aren't that great. I bolted it
down with new gasket and went through the tightening sequence. I did it
about five times, each time adding another 10 or so, "NM" of torque.

I ran a tap through all of the head bolt holes. After that I stuck a magnet
down into each hole to remove any residue.
I gave each of the head bolts the Presidential treatment ... oiled the hell
out of them and used a brass brush on their threads. Still, while tightening
them down, I feel a point of the bolt wanting to turn but can't .... then
loosen it a bit and start the tightening again and it turns easily, and more
than it went before, for the same torque reading. What is the correct
procedure for torqueing head bolts ? Do you tighten and then loosen or just
tighten only ?

I guess that after driving the car, I should recheck the torque at some
point. When should that be ?

Thanks,
Forrest


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 15 Sep 2008, 08:13 am
jim beam
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Default Re: Torquing of head bolts ?

Forrest wrote:
> I finally got around to getting the head back on my 89 Accord. I didn't have
> it skimmed or valves rebuilt. I know my rings aren't that great. I bolted it
> down with new gasket and went through the tightening sequence. I did it
> about five times, each time adding another 10 or so, "NM" of torque.
>
> I ran a tap through all of the head bolt holes. After that I stuck a magnet
> down into each hole to remove any residue.
> I gave each of the head bolts the Presidential treatment ... oiled the hell
> out of them and used a brass brush on their threads. Still, while tightening
> them down, I feel a point of the bolt wanting to turn but can't .... then
> loosen it a bit and start the tightening again and it turns easily, and more
> than it went before, for the same torque reading. What is the correct
> procedure for torqueing head bolts ? Do you tighten and then loosen or just
> tighten only ?
>
> I guess that after driving the car, I should recheck the torque at some
> point. When should that be ?
>
> Thanks,
> Forrest
>
>


if you go to tegger.com and dig through some of the tsb's, you'll find
honda revised their torque procedure. basically, torque with the
bending beam torque wrench, two stage, as before, then go back and
check-torque the center two bolts. after that, you're done. the
quality honda gasket means no re-torque required.

if i were you, i'd go back and do a two stage tightening. it does the
best job of getting past the "sticktion" problems you're having. you
are using the bending beam aren't you?
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 15 Sep 2008, 04:29 pm
Forrest
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Torquing of head bolts ?


"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:uZCdnQLGzcoowlPVnZ2dnUVZ_oDinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Forrest wrote:
>> I finally got around to getting the head back on my 89 Accord. I didn't
>> have it skimmed or valves rebuilt. I know my rings aren't that great. I
>> bolted it down with new gasket and went through the tightening sequence.
>> I did it about five times, each time adding another 10 or so, "NM" of
>> torque.
>>
>> I ran a tap through all of the head bolt holes. After that I stuck a
>> magnet down into each hole to remove any residue.
>> I gave each of the head bolts the Presidential treatment ... oiled the
>> hell out of them and used a brass brush on their threads. Still, while
>> tightening them down, I feel a point of the bolt wanting to turn but
>> can't .... then loosen it a bit and start the tightening again and it
>> turns easily, and more than it went before, for the same torque reading.
>> What is the correct procedure for torqueing head bolts ? Do you tighten
>> and then loosen or just tighten only ?
>>
>> I guess that after driving the car, I should recheck the torque at some
>> point. When should that be ?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Forrest

>
> if you go to tegger.com and dig through some of the tsb's, you'll find
> honda revised their torque procedure. basically, torque with the bending
> beam torque wrench, two stage, as before, then go back and check-torque
> the center two bolts. after that, you're done. the quality honda gasket
> means no re-torque required.
>
> if i were you, i'd go back and do a two stage tightening. it does the
> best job of getting past the "sticktion" problems you're having. you are
> using the bending beam aren't you?


I was afraid you would say that ... do it over, that is. Every time that I
woke up last night, I came to the same conclusion. Yes, I did use a bending
beam type of wrench. I think that a good part of the problem is the type of
lube that I used on the bolt threads. After cleaning them up, I lubed them
with "Dura lube". It was the spray stuff and rather thin. I guess I was
supposed to use engine oil. I was afraid of getting a hydraulic lock or
whatever in the bolt holes.
Not so sure that I got the block holes as cleaned out as well as I should
have. I ran the tap down each one and each had metal debris that came out on
the little pencil magnet that I put in the holes. A few of the bolts had a
small bit of resistance when threading by hand. I was afraid of overdoing
it. Is it OK to run the tap more than once?


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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 15 Sep 2008, 04:40 pm
Forrest
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Torquing of head bolts ?


"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:uZCdnQLGzcoowlPVnZ2dnUVZ_oDinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Forrest wrote:
>> I finally got around to getting the head back on my 89 Accord. I didn't
>> have it skimmed or valves rebuilt. I know my rings aren't that great. I
>> bolted it down with new gasket and went through the tightening sequence.
>> I did it about five times, each time adding another 10 or so, "NM" of
>> torque.
>>
>> I ran a tap through all of the head bolt holes. After that I stuck a
>> magnet down into each hole to remove any residue.
>> I gave each of the head bolts the Presidential treatment ... oiled the
>> hell out of them and used a brass brush on their threads. Still, while
>> tightening them down, I feel a point of the bolt wanting to turn but
>> can't .... then loosen it a bit and start the tightening again and it
>> turns easily, and more than it went before, for the same torque reading.
>> What is the correct procedure for torqueing head bolts ? Do you tighten
>> and then loosen or just tighten only ?
>>
>> I guess that after driving the car, I should recheck the torque at some
>> point. When should that be ?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Forrest

>
> if you go to tegger.com and dig through some of the tsb's, you'll find
> honda revised their torque procedure. basically, torque with the bending
> beam torque wrench, two stage, as before, then go back and check-torque
> the center two bolts. after that, you're done. the quality honda gasket
> means no re-torque required.
>
> if i were you, i'd go back and do a two stage tightening. it does the
> best job of getting past the "sticktion" problems you're having. you are
> using the bending beam aren't you?


I just went to tegger.com but couldn't find the TSB that you were talking
about.


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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 15 Sep 2008, 07:53 pm
Tegger
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Torquing of head bolts ?

"Forrest" <REMOVETHISrunforrest1@gmail.com> wrote in
news:_sAzk.272$hc1.66@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com:


>
> I was afraid you would say that ... do it over, that is. Every time
> that I woke up last night, I came to the same conclusion. Yes, I did
> use a bending beam type of wrench. I think that a good part of the
> problem is the type of lube that I used on the bolt threads. After
> cleaning them up, I lubed them with "Dura lube". It was the spray
> stuff and rather thin. I guess I was supposed to use engine oil. I was
> afraid of getting a hydraulic lock or whatever in the bolt holes.
> Not so sure that I got the block holes as cleaned out as well as I
> should have. I ran the tap down each one and each had metal debris
> that came out on the little pencil magnet that I put in the holes. A
> few of the bolts had a small bit of resistance when threading by hand.
> I was afraid of overdoing it. Is it OK to run the tap more than once?
>
>



Why on earth you would tap the head bolt holes is beyond me. Do you have
any idea whether the tolerance grade/position on your tap is the same as
what Honda's thread cutter used? Those oil-soaked chips will never come out
now. You /may/ be able to blow them out with compressed air.

All that should have been on the bolt threads and under the bolt head is
engine oil. /Anything/ else will alter the bolt's final torque.

I shouldn't have to point out that installing head bolts is one of the most
precise jobs you can perform on any car. Failure to follow the manual
precisely will result in early failure of your new gasket.

The shop manual specifies that you should tighten the head bolts in two
stages (22 ft/lbs, then 49 ft/lbs), following this sequence:
8-6-2-4-10 >>
9-3-1-5-7 >> timing belt end

Get thee hence to eBay and buy a proper Helm shop manual.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 15 Sep 2008, 08:03 pm
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Torquing of head bolts ?

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:uZCdnQLGzcoowlPVnZ2dnUVZ_oDinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:


>
> if you go to tegger.com and dig through some of the tsb's, you'll find
> honda revised their torque procedure.




I'm not finding any TSB like that, not even at Ebscohost.

I do find an HSN article (Nov '05) involving North-American-built V6s only.
But this one does not mention re-checking the middle two bolts.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 16 Sep 2008, 08:04 am
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Torquing of head bolts ?

Forrest wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:uZCdnQLGzcoowlPVnZ2dnUVZ_oDinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> Forrest wrote:
>>> I finally got around to getting the head back on my 89 Accord. I didn't
>>> have it skimmed or valves rebuilt. I know my rings aren't that great. I
>>> bolted it down with new gasket and went through the tightening sequence.
>>> I did it about five times, each time adding another 10 or so, "NM" of
>>> torque.
>>>
>>> I ran a tap through all of the head bolt holes. After that I stuck a
>>> magnet down into each hole to remove any residue.
>>> I gave each of the head bolts the Presidential treatment ... oiled the
>>> hell out of them and used a brass brush on their threads. Still, while
>>> tightening them down, I feel a point of the bolt wanting to turn but
>>> can't .... then loosen it a bit and start the tightening again and it
>>> turns easily, and more than it went before, for the same torque reading.
>>> What is the correct procedure for torqueing head bolts ? Do you tighten
>>> and then loosen or just tighten only ?
>>>
>>> I guess that after driving the car, I should recheck the torque at some
>>> point. When should that be ?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Forrest

>> if you go to tegger.com and dig through some of the tsb's, you'll find
>> honda revised their torque procedure. basically, torque with the bending
>> beam torque wrench, two stage, as before, then go back and check-torque
>> the center two bolts. after that, you're done. the quality honda gasket
>> means no re-torque required.
>>
>> if i were you, i'd go back and do a two stage tightening. it does the
>> best job of getting past the "sticktion" problems you're having. you are
>> using the bending beam aren't you?

>
> I was afraid you would say that ... do it over, that is. Every time that I
> woke up last night, I came to the same conclusion. Yes, I did use a bending
> beam type of wrench. I think that a good part of the problem is the type of
> lube that I used on the bolt threads. After cleaning them up, I lubed them
> with "Dura lube". It was the spray stuff and rather thin. I guess I was
> supposed to use engine oil. I was afraid of getting a hydraulic lock or
> whatever in the bolt holes.


don't worry about that - the threads don't seal that hard.



> Not so sure that I got the block holes as cleaned out as well as I should
> have. I ran the tap down each one and each had metal debris that came out on
> the little pencil magnet that I put in the holes.


the trick is to use grease on the tap - it retains all the swarf.


> A few of the bolts had a
> small bit of resistance when threading by hand. I was afraid of overdoing
> it. Is it OK to run the tap more than once?


sure, as long as the threads aren't crossed. don't over-do it though.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 16 Sep 2008, 08:06 am
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Torquing of head bolts ?

Tegger wrote:
> "Forrest" <REMOVETHISrunforrest1@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:_sAzk.272$hc1.66@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com:
>
>
>> I was afraid you would say that ... do it over, that is. Every time
>> that I woke up last night, I came to the same conclusion. Yes, I did
>> use a bending beam type of wrench. I think that a good part of the
>> problem is the type of lube that I used on the bolt threads. After
>> cleaning them up, I lubed them with "Dura lube". It was the spray
>> stuff and rather thin. I guess I was supposed to use engine oil. I was
>> afraid of getting a hydraulic lock or whatever in the bolt holes.
>> Not so sure that I got the block holes as cleaned out as well as I
>> should have. I ran the tap down each one and each had metal debris
>> that came out on the little pencil magnet that I put in the holes. A
>> few of the bolts had a small bit of resistance when threading by hand.
>> I was afraid of overdoing it. Is it OK to run the tap more than once?
>>
>>

>
>
> Why on earth you would tap the head bolt holes is beyond me. Do you have
> any idea whether the tolerance grade/position on your tap is the same as
> what Honda's thread cutter used? Those oil-soaked chips will never come out
> now. You /may/ be able to blow them out with compressed air.
>
> All that should have been on the bolt threads and under the bolt head is
> engine oil. /Anything/ else will alter the bolt's final torque.
>
> I shouldn't have to point out that installing head bolts is one of the most
> precise jobs you can perform on any car. Failure to follow the manual
> precisely will result in early failure of your new gasket.
>
> The shop manual specifies that you should tighten the head bolts in two
> stages (22 ft/lbs, then 49 ft/lbs), following this sequence:
> 8-6-2-4-10 >>
> 9-3-1-5-7 >> timing belt end
>
> Get thee hence to eBay and buy a proper Helm shop manual.
>
>


indeed. i have a tsb though that says go back to the center two bolts
at the end. no time tight now, but i'll dig it up and email it to you.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 16 Sep 2008, 01:10 pm
Tegger
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Torquing of head bolts ?

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:xfGdnb6qXMIQMlLVnZ2dnUVZ_rfinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> i have a tsb though that says go back to the center two bolts
> at the end. no time tight now, but i'll dig it up and email it to
> you.
>



That would be nice, thanks. Even if you know the number, offhand.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 16 Sep 2008, 02:57 pm
Forrest
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Torquing of head bolts ?


"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:xfGdnb6qXMIQMlLVnZ2dnUVZ_rfinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Tegger wrote:
>> "Forrest" <REMOVETHISrunforrest1@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:_sAzk.272$hc1.66@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com:
>>> I was afraid you would say that ... do it over, that is. Every time
>>> that I woke up last night, I came to the same conclusion. Yes, I did
>>> use a bending beam type of wrench. I think that a good part of the
>>> problem is the type of lube that I used on the bolt threads. After
>>> cleaning them up, I lubed them with "Dura lube". It was the spray
>>> stuff and rather thin. I guess I was supposed to use engine oil. I was
>>> afraid of getting a hydraulic lock or whatever in the bolt holes.
>>> Not so sure that I got the block holes as cleaned out as well as I
>>> should have. I ran the tap down each one and each had metal debris
>>> that came out on the little pencil magnet that I put in the holes. A
>>> few of the bolts had a small bit of resistance when threading by hand.
>>> I was afraid of overdoing it. Is it OK to run the tap more than once?
>>>

>>
>>
>> Why on earth you would tap the head bolt holes is beyond me. Do you have
>> any idea whether the tolerance grade/position on your tap is the same as
>> what Honda's thread cutter used? Those oil-soaked chips will never come
>> out now. You /may/ be able to blow them out with compressed air.
>>
>> All that should have been on the bolt threads and under the bolt head is
>> engine oil. /Anything/ else will alter the bolt's final torque.
>>
>> I shouldn't have to point out that installing head bolts is one of the
>> most precise jobs you can perform on any car. Failure to follow the
>> manual precisely will result in early failure of your new gasket.
>>
>> The shop manual specifies that you should tighten the head bolts in two
>> stages (22 ft/lbs, then 49 ft/lbs), following this sequence:
>> 8-6-2-4-10 >>
>> 9-3-1-5-7 >> timing belt end
>>
>> Get thee hence to eBay and buy a proper Helm shop manual.
>>
>>

>
> indeed. i have a tsb though that says go back to the center two bolts at
> the end. no time tight now, but i'll dig it up and email it to you.


I removed all of the bolts and reinstalled them with engine oil on the
threads. Worked much better this time. Still though, if I stopped at all
during the tightening, the torque wrench reading would be way high and it
didn't want to go more without exceeding the desired mark. It was hard to
pull and be able to read the scale and yet not stop until the right reading
was attained. My wrench was a bit short and wimpy and maxed out at 70 NM ...
68 being the desired torque. It would have been much easier using my big
click type, torque wrench. What's wrong with using them? Is the calibration
usually too far off or do they just vary too much between bolts?

I rechecked the center two but as I said, after stopping, nothing was going
to read under-torqued. Does that mean that I should loosen them a both a bit
and redo them?

I have the Haynes manual, which I think Jim said wasn't worth a damn,
(couldn't agree more) and I have a Honda manual entitled, "Accord service
manual 1989" that's silver in color. It isn't worth a damn either. It's not
much more than a picture book with some specs. It doesn't really tell you
how to do anything.


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