Honda Car Forum

I finally got serious about looking for a second Honda
Civic, c. 1989-1997. A few observations:

-- A friend of mine convinced me Carfax was worth $35 for 30
days, unlimited checks. For the four cars I checked, it
revealed: (a)
Odometer tampering with two, with the advertised mileage
being over 100k lower than the Carfax title reported
mileage; (b) lying about the number of owners for a third;
it had had four owners in 18 months. Many reports attest to
how Carfax is not perfect, but so far it sure saved me some
trouble.

-- Most persistent major mechanical problems have been poor
air conditioning and suspect CV joints. I watch especially
for blown head gaskets. So far for around half a dozen cars
I have actually examined: no residue on the oil cap; oil in
the reservoir; smell from exhaust pipe; white puff from
exhaust pipe.

-- craigslist.org has been my best resource. (Thanks to
regular poster JT for sending me there!) Ebay,
autotrader.com and dealers have turned up little. Dealers do
not like to deal in cars that do not involve financing, so
low price beaters generally are not advertised for sale by
them. Though oddly, on my Carfax checks, there's always an
advertisement by dealers for a 199- Civic, complete with
VIN. Then I call the dealer, and the car is not there. Maybe
when a car is traded in, carfax automatically retrieves it
and its filter puts the ad up? But in fact most of these
cars are sold at auction? Craigslist people have all been
good about meeting at the designated time and test driving
(though I almost always have a friend with me). Craigs list
sellers where I am have been mostly but not entirely honest,
at least insofar as the carfax checks indicate.

-- used car dealers are a hoot! Unless you know what to look
for on these older Hondas, do not buy from a used dealer. A
fine looking Honda Civic DX came up on Craig's list at a mom
n' pop used car dealership. I went to see it. Great body,
engine compartment sparkled, fluids looked clean and topped
off; but no muffler; no radio; check engine light was on;
windshield was cracked, miles advertised were 124k and
carfax said it was in fact over 271k miles a year ago. I am
considering making a very low offer (after telling the
dealership about the flawed title tampered odometer) just
for the shell.

Further advice?

"Elle" <honda.lioness@spamnocox.net> wrote in message news:iSQ7k.1145$oY2.648@newsfe21.lga...
> I finally got serious about looking for a second Honda
> Civic, c. 1989-1997. A few observations:

What kind of money are we talking about here?
In other words, how much do you want to spend
and where are you located? Maybe I will have
a car for you.... :-)

> -- A friend of mine convinced me Carfax was worth $35 for 30
> days, unlimited checks. For the four cars I checked, it
> revealed: (a)
> Odometer tampering with two, with the advertised mileage
> being over 100k lower than the Carfax title reported
> mileage; (b) lying about the number of owners for a third;
> it had had four owners in 18 months. Many reports attest to
> how Carfax is not perfect, but so far it sure saved me some
> trouble.

With the car that old I would say actual millage is not
as important as the current technical condition of the car.

> -- craigslist.org has been my best resource. (Thanks to
> regular poster JT for sending me there!) Ebay,
> autotrader.com and dealers have turned up little. Dealers do
> not like to deal in cars that do not involve financing, so
> low price beaters generally are not advertised for sale by
> them. Though oddly, on my Carfax checks, there's always an
> advertisement by dealers for a 199- Civic, complete with
> VIN. Then I call the dealer, and the car is not there. Maybe
> when a car is traded in, carfax automatically retrieves it
> and its filter puts the ad up? But in fact most of these
> cars are sold at auction?

I am not surprised new car dealers do not keep these cars.
The car you are looking for probably is worth much less than
a 1000 and takes the same amount of space on the dealer parking
lot as tha 20k one. Also, on average it will look horrible
compared to new cars, so new car dealer selling not old used
cars does not want to clutter his parking lot with trash like
top down rusted 1989 honda civic.

> -- used car dealers are a hoot! Unless you know what to look
> for on these older Hondas, do not buy from a used dealer. A
> fine looking Honda Civic DX came up on Craig's list at a mom
> n' pop used car dealership. I went to see it. Great body,
> engine compartment sparkled, fluids looked clean and topped
> off; but no muffler; no radio; check engine light was on;
> windshield was cracked, miles advertised were 124k and
> carfax said it was in fact over 271k miles a year ago. I am
> considering making a very low offer (after telling the
> dealership about the flawed title tampered odometer) just
> for the shell.

What do you consider a "low offer" for such a car?
Junkyard is probably paying between 100-200 dolars
for a car which can be driven to the yard... Slightly
less if it has to be towed. If you see a car on
some dealer's parking lot than it means the owner
hopes to get much more for his trashy car than he
could get from the junkyard.

> Further advice?

Look at your local junk yard. Sometimes they have
cars these old in quite good condition and you
might score good find this way...
Of course it is junk yard, so the car will not
look good, guaranteed.

"Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@spamnocox.net> wrote
>> I finally got serious about looking for a second Honda
>> Civic, c. 1989-1997. A few observations:
>
> What kind of money are we talking about here?
> In other words, how much do you want to spend
> and where are you located? Maybe I will have
> a car for you.... :-)

Write me where you are located. :-)

>> -- A friend of mine convinced me Carfax was worth $35 for
>> 30 days, unlimited checks. For the four cars I checked,
>> it revealed: (a)
>> Odometer tampering with two, with the advertised mileage
>> being over 100k lower than the Carfax title reported
>> mileage; (b) lying about the number of owners for a
>> third; it had had four owners in 18 months. Many reports
>> attest to how Carfax is not perfect, but so far it sure
>> saved me some trouble.
>
> With the car that old I would say actual millage is not
> as important as the current technical condition of the
> car.

A 90s Civic engine with 100k-125k miles on to me likely has
at least 75k miles more left on the engine.

A 90s Civic engine with 200k and up miles on it to me may go
at any time. If I knew the owner and the maintenance record,
I might feel a little differently.

There's a huge difference in risk. This is all we can talk
about here, ya know, probabilities.


>> -- craigslist.org has been my best resource. (Thanks to
>> regular poster JT for sending me there!) Ebay,
>> autotrader.com and dealers have turned up little. Dealers
>> do not like to deal in cars that do not involve
>> financing, so low price beaters generally are not
>> advertised for sale by them. Though oddly, on my Carfax
>> checks, there's always an advertisement by dealers for a
>> 199- Civic, complete with VIN. Then I call the dealer,
>> and the car is not there. Maybe when a car is traded in,
>> carfax automatically retrieves it and its filter puts the
>> ad up? But in fact most of these cars are sold at
>> auction?
>
> I am not surprised new car dealers do not keep these cars.
> The car you are looking for probably is worth much less
> than
> a 1000 and takes the same amount of space on the dealer
> parking
> lot as tha 20k one.

Kelly blue book puts them at $1200-2500, depending on
condition, for private party. Retail is usually more.

The dealers do not keep them because financing generally is
not done with such a low cost.

> Also, on average it will look horrible
> compared to new cars, so new car dealer selling not old
> used
> cars does not want to clutter his parking lot with trash
> like top down rusted 1989 honda civic.

I am sure you are right. :-)

>> -- used car dealers are a hoot! Unless you know what to
>> look for on these older Hondas, do not buy from a used
>> dealer. A fine looking Honda Civic DX came up on Craig's
>> list at a mom n' pop used car dealership. I went to see
>> it. Great body, engine compartment sparkled, fluids
>> looked clean and topped off; but no muffler; no radio;
>> check engine light was on; windshield was cracked, miles
>> advertised were 124k and carfax said it was in fact over
>> 271k miles a year ago. I am considering making a very low
>> offer (after telling the dealership about the flawed
>> title tampered odometer) just for the shell.
>
> What do you consider a "low offer" for such a car?
> Junkyard is probably paying between 100-200 dolars
> for a car which can be driven to the yard... Slightly
> less if it has to be towed. If you see a car on some
> dealer's parking lot than it means the owner hopes to get
> much more for his trashy car than he
> could get from the junkyard.

Well sure. Fortunately Craig's List and Ebay often have
shells for sale, so I know the asking price for a good shell
is around $500 to $1000.

>> Further advice?
>
> Look at your local junk yard. Sometimes they have
> cars these old in quite good condition and you might score
> good find this way...
> Of course it is junk yard, so the car will not
> look good, guaranteed.

Indeed there is one local junkyard that buys running cars
and sells them. I started checking it regularly a few weeks
ago. Many of the cars there do not look too bad and could be
fixed up nicely.

I saw such a humdinger a few hours ago. 90 Civic. Lifted the
hood, and the first thing I always check is the coolant
reservoir. Well huh, the cap is already unfastened. It's
overfilled and bubbles are coming out the tube right before
my very eyes. First blown head gasket yada I have seen. I
ended the inspection there saying I would not risk it.

Elle wrote:
> "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote
>> "Elle" <honda.lioness@spamnocox.net> wrote
>>> I finally got serious about looking for a second Honda
>>> Civic, c. 1989-1997. A few observations:
>> What kind of money are we talking about here?
>> In other words, how much do you want to spend
>> and where are you located? Maybe I will have
>> a car for you.... :-)
>
> Write me where you are located. :-)
>
>>> -- A friend of mine convinced me Carfax was worth $35 for
>>> 30 days, unlimited checks. For the four cars I checked,
>>> it revealed: (a)
>>> Odometer tampering with two, with the advertised mileage
>>> being over 100k lower than the Carfax title reported
>>> mileage; (b) lying about the number of owners for a
>>> third; it had had four owners in 18 months. Many reports
>>> attest to how Carfax is not perfect, but so far it sure
>>> saved me some trouble.
>> With the car that old I would say actual millage is not
>> as important as the current technical condition of the
>> car.
>
> A 90s Civic engine with 100k-125k miles on to me likely has
> at least 75k miles more left on the engine.
>
> A 90s Civic engine with 200k and up miles on it to me may go
> at any time. If I knew the owner and the maintenance record,
> I might feel a little differently.
>
> There's a huge difference in risk. This is all we can talk
> about here, ya know, probabilities.

i think Pszemol is dead right on this one. there comes a point where
mileage is irrelevant and you're buying the car for the platform, not
any one single component. and with replacement jdm
engines/transmissions being so cheap and plentiful, the condition of the
original is not very important - unlike the quality of the interior
which is pretty much vital.


>
>
>>> -- craigslist.org has been my best resource. (Thanks to
>>> regular poster JT for sending me there!) Ebay,
>>> autotrader.com and dealers have turned up little. Dealers
>>> do not like to deal in cars that do not involve
>>> financing, so low price beaters generally are not
>>> advertised for sale by them. Though oddly, on my Carfax
>>> checks, there's always an advertisement by dealers for a
>>> 199- Civic, complete with VIN. Then I call the dealer,
>>> and the car is not there. Maybe when a car is traded in,
>>> carfax automatically retrieves it and its filter puts the
>>> ad up? But in fact most of these cars are sold at
>>> auction?
>> I am not surprised new car dealers do not keep these cars.
>> The car you are looking for probably is worth much less
>> than
>> a 1000 and takes the same amount of space on the dealer
>> parking
>> lot as tha 20k one.
>
> Kelly blue book puts them at $1200-2500, depending on
> condition, for private party. Retail is usually more.

i've seen up to $3k on craigslist for stock 88-91 civics here in the bay
area. that's if you can find one. the local ricers go nuts for them.
even harder to find now that gas prices are high.


>
> The dealers do not keep them because financing generally is
> not done with such a low cost.
>
>> Also, on average it will look horrible
>> compared to new cars, so new car dealer selling not old
>> used
>> cars does not want to clutter his parking lot with trash
>> like top down rusted 1989 honda civic.
>
> I am sure you are right. :-)
>
>>> -- used car dealers are a hoot! Unless you know what to
>>> look for on these older Hondas, do not buy from a used
>>> dealer. A fine looking Honda Civic DX came up on Craig's
>>> list at a mom n' pop used car dealership. I went to see
>>> it. Great body, engine compartment sparkled, fluids
>>> looked clean and topped off; but no muffler; no radio;
>>> check engine light was on; windshield was cracked, miles
>>> advertised were 124k and carfax said it was in fact over
>>> 271k miles a year ago. I am considering making a very low
>>> offer (after telling the dealership about the flawed
>>> title tampered odometer) just for the shell.
>> What do you consider a "low offer" for such a car?
>> Junkyard is probably paying between 100-200 dolars
>> for a car which can be driven to the yard... Slightly
>> less if it has to be towed. If you see a car on some
>> dealer's parking lot than it means the owner hopes to get
>> much more for his trashy car than he
>> could get from the junkyard.
>
> Well sure. Fortunately Craig's List and Ebay often have
> shells for sale, so I know the asking price for a good shell
> is around $500 to $1000.
>
>>> Further advice?
>> Look at your local junk yard. Sometimes they have
>> cars these old in quite good condition and you might score
>> good find this way...
>> Of course it is junk yard, so the car will not
>> look good, guaranteed.
>
> Indeed there is one local junkyard that buys running cars
> and sells them. I started checking it regularly a few weeks
> ago. Many of the cars there do not look too bad and could be
> fixed up nicely.
>
> I saw such a humdinger a few hours ago. 90 Civic. Lifted the
> hood, and the first thing I always check is the coolant
> reservoir. Well huh, the cap is already unfastened. It's
> overfilled and bubbles are coming out the tube right before
> my very eyes. First blown head gasket yada I have seen. I
> ended the inspection there saying I would not risk it.

buy it, but pay a price that reflects the problem. engines are fixable.
trashed interiors and bent bodies are a giant pita.

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message news:qaOdnR15lNvs6_3VnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> i've seen up to $3k on craigslist for stock 88-91 civics here in the bay
> area. that's if you can find one. the local ricers go nuts for them.
> even harder to find now that gas prices are high.


If this is true that this car is in demand beween ricing
enthusiasts than it will be very hard to compete them
for somebody who is looking for an economy car...

I can hardly imagine what good could come from
buying such an old car anyway. Yes, you could probably
find a cheap one but it will not be in good condition!
You spend a lot of time looking for it, driving around
for inspections spending money and time to find one.
Then, when you find one it will not be over...
Is your main goal not to have montly payments? You
*will* be paying montly (or weekly) payments anyway
but to the local parts store instead to the bank and live
in constant fear that the car will crap out on you in the
middle of the trip spoiling a day and causing you some
towing costs..

Does not seem to be such a bargain to me,
but you know, I am very spoiled ;-)

"Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote
> I can hardly imagine what good could come from
> buying such an old car anyway. Yes, you could probably
> find a cheap one but it will not be in good condition!
> You spend a lot of time looking for it, driving around
> for inspections spending money and time to find one.

Folks who know nothing about automotive engine systems
should not buy such old cars.

Those who know these cars and have the time to work on them
stand to save a lot of money.

Pszemol wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:qaOdnR15lNvs6_3VnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> i've seen up to $3k on craigslist for stock 88-91 civics here in the
>> bay area. that's if you can find one. the local ricers go nuts for
>> them. even harder to find now that gas prices are high.
>
>
> If this is true that this car is in demand beween ricing
> enthusiasts than it will be very hard to compete them
> for somebody who is looking for an economy car...

the price is being bid up by people wanting gas sippers as well - even
more demand than usual. but you can still get a sedan for under $1k,
it's the hatchbacks that are in demand.


>
> I can hardly imagine what good could come from
> buying such an old car anyway. Yes, you could probably
> find a cheap one but it will not be in good condition!
> You spend a lot of time looking for it, driving around
> for inspections spending money and time to find one.
> Then, when you find one it will not be over...
> Is your main goal not to have montly payments? You
> *will* be paying montly (or weekly) payments anyway
> but to the local parts store instead to the bank and live
> in constant fear that the car will crap out on you in the
> middle of the trip spoiling a day and causing you some
> towing costs..

eh? "constant fear"??? statistically, a new car has a greater
probability of failure than one that's in the middle of its life.
[bathtub curve]. at 176k miles, my civic is in the middle of its life.
there are certain weakness in this vintage civic, main relay being the
most notable, but it doesn't cost much to sort that stuff out.


>
> Does not seem to be such a bargain to me,
> but you know, I am very spoiled ;-)

as elle says, if you know these vehicles, you can save a bunch of dough.
my 2000 civic depreciated at about $1,100 per year that i owned it. i
couldn't spend that much a year in maintenance on my 89 if i wanted to.
and the 89 has APpreciated in value since i bought it, not DEpreciated.

and that's not accounting for the fact that certain models are better
than others. imo, the 88-91 civic/crx is about the best car honda ever
produced. i've tested/owned subsequent models of civic and they neither
handle as well, nor are as comfortable as these first "real deal"
4-wheel wishbone civics. so that's why i drive them - they're the best.

Waiving the right to remain silent, "Elle" <honda.lioness@spamnocox.net>
said:

> "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote
>> I can hardly imagine what good could come from
>> buying such an old car anyway. Yes, you could probably
>> find a cheap one but it will not be in good condition!
>> You spend a lot of time looking for it, driving around for inspections
>> spending money and time to find one.
>
> Folks who know nothing about automotive engine systems
> should not buy such old cars.
>
> Those who know these cars and have the time to work on them
> stand to save a lot of money.

It's the kind of car you get for your young son, and let him fix it up for
the fun and experience. It's not a serious daily-driver for anyone.

--
Larry J. - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail

"A lack of common sense is now considered a disability,
with all the privileges that this entails."

"Larry in AZ" <usenet2@DELETE.THISljvideo.com>
Elle wrote
>> Folks who know nothing about automotive engine systems
>> should not buy such old cars.
>>
>> Those who know these cars and have the time to work on
>> them
>> stand to save a lot of money.
>
> It's the kind of car you get for your young son, and let
> him fix it up for
> the fun and experience. It's not a serious daily-driver
> for anyone.

For anyone who has taken their c. 1990 Honda beyond 200k
miles, a second Honda with 120k miles original engine or
163k miles body and 70k mile engine can result in a daily
driver.

Larry in AZ wrote:
> Waiving the right to remain silent, "Elle" <honda.lioness@spamnocox.net>
> said:
>
>> "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote
>>> I can hardly imagine what good could come from
>>> buying such an old car anyway. Yes, you could probably
>>> find a cheap one but it will not be in good condition!
>>> You spend a lot of time looking for it, driving around for inspections
>>> spending money and time to find one.
>> Folks who know nothing about automotive engine systems
>> should not buy such old cars.
>>
>> Those who know these cars and have the time to work on them
>> stand to save a lot of money.
>
> It's the kind of car you get for your young son, and let him fix it up for
> the fun and experience. It's not a serious daily-driver for anyone.
>

rubbish. mine's a daily driver. and at 40mpg freeway, you can bet
that's serious too.