Honda Car Forum

Elle wrote:
> "Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote
>> Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if
>> left to their own devices. Left to their own devices
>> they'd install an oil pressure gauge before the filter,
>> one after, and one at the last feed off the oil galley.
>> You'd have a water temp gauge before and after the
>> radiator, a transmission oil temperature gauge before and
>> after the cooler, and 8 individual exhaust gas temperature
>> probes.
>
> This would fail to solve the first engineering problem,
> which is have a good car of xyz dimensions. You can't get
> everything in without trading off something else that is
> important to the engineering. It's also false that engineers
> do not make economic decisions. In this instance, more gages
> = more manufacturing costs = less than optimal sales and
> profit.
>
>

As a working engineer, I realize that. I might have exaggerated a bit,
but in general powertrain engineers would argue that electric seat
warmers be omitted to meet weight and cost before they would leave out
instrumentation. Certainly very few powertrain engineers would want to
leave something so basic as a temperature gauge and oil pressure gauge
out of their own car.

Ray O wrote:
> "Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote in message
> news:AICdnRksappCbpHVnZ2dnUVZ_sKqnZ2d@texas.net...
> <snipped>
>> Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking
>> down, looks like an old flashlight, has a cover for when you're not
>> racing... not the dumb little up-arrow on the dashboard that comes on
>> whenever Toyota thinks you should be using less fuel.
>>
>
> Toyota did not equip any cars with shift lights.

80s Corollas sure had them.

jim beam wrote:

>>
>> He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his ass....
>
> says the guy that thinks a dummy water temp meter is giving him useful
> information!!!

Stop drinking your name-sake while posting and you might understand more.

A major component of my WHOLE ARGUMENT in this thread has been that
DUMMY gauges are just idiot lights with pointers and are therefore as
useless as an idiot light. How could you POSSIBLY have missed that,
other than deliberately doing so just to pick an argument?

"Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote
> Elle wrote:
>> "Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote
>>> Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if
>>> left to their own devices. Left to their own devices
>>> they'd install an oil pressure gauge before the filter,
>>> one after, and one at the last feed off the oil galley.
>>> You'd have a water temp gauge before and after the
>>> radiator, a transmission oil temperature gauge before
>>> and after the cooler, and 8 individual exhaust gas
>>> temperature probes.
>>
>> This would fail to solve the first engineering problem,
>> which is have a good car of xyz dimensions. You can't get
>> everything in without trading off something else that is
>> important to the engineering. It's also false that
>> engineers do not make economic decisions. In this
>> instance, more gages = more manufacturing costs = less
>> than optimal sales and profit.
>
> As a working engineer, I realize that. I might have
> exaggerated a bit, but in general powertrain engineers
> would argue that electric seat warmers be omitted to meet
> weight and cost before they would leave out
> instrumentation.

Me being a retired engineer specialized in power plants, it
depends on the instrumentation. (Call that a nitpick; I am
betting you know this.) A prime example is the tachometer.
Many automatic transmission cars have one. It could be
argued to be superfluous for auto trannies and manual
trannies. I suppose it is in auto tranny cars because it
helps sell the car, though.

> Certainly very few powertrain engineers would want to
> leave something so basic as a temperature gauge and oil
> pressure gauge out of their own car.

I do not think anyone here disputes that some sort of gage
or idiot light--one or the other, at least--for coolant
temperature and oil pressure is a very good idea. We're
talking about automotive design and how systems integrate
(e.g. when it comes to using space; offering safety to the
passengers; etc.). A contingent of engineers will be focused
on passenger comfort, and with the marketing department,
they will run the numbers and find that the seat warmers
sell X amount of cars at Y price, so they need to make it
work for Z dollars a car.

Related aside: Laypeople of course can discuss this topic
intelligently, because this is about tradeoffs. Many of
these tradeoffs are understandable simply with the
application of common sense.

Elle wrote:
> "Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote
>> Elle wrote:
>>> "Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote
>>>> Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if
>>>> left to their own devices. Left to their own devices
>>>> they'd install an oil pressure gauge before the filter,
>>>> one after, and one at the last feed off the oil galley.
>>>> You'd have a water temp gauge before and after the
>>>> radiator, a transmission oil temperature gauge before
>>>> and after the cooler, and 8 individual exhaust gas
>>>> temperature probes.
>>> This would fail to solve the first engineering problem,
>>> which is have a good car of xyz dimensions. You can't get
>>> everything in without trading off something else that is
>>> important to the engineering. It's also false that
>>> engineers do not make economic decisions. In this
>>> instance, more gages = more manufacturing costs = less
>>> than optimal sales and profit.
>> As a working engineer, I realize that. I might have
>> exaggerated a bit, but in general powertrain engineers
>> would argue that electric seat warmers be omitted to meet
>> weight and cost before they would leave out
>> instrumentation.
>
> Me being a retired engineer specialized in power plants, it
> depends on the instrumentation. (Call that a nitpick; I am
> betting you know this.) A prime example is the tachometer.
> Many automatic transmission cars have one. It could be
> argued to be superfluous for auto trannies and manual
> trannies. I suppose it is in auto tranny cars because it
> helps sell the car, though.

Not only that, but it is helpful, because one is able to determine what
gear a car is in by comparing the vehicle speed with the engine speed.
Plus, if one has a manual transmission, if the engine speeds seem to
creep up when going uphill, but the road speed stays constant, this
suggests that there is a problem with the clutch (and soon, your bank
account is going to take a hit).

>> Certainly very few powertrain engineers would want to
>> leave something so basic as a temperature gauge and oil
>> pressure gauge out of their own car.
>
> I do not think anyone here disputes that some sort of gage
> or idiot light--one or the other, at least--for coolant
> temperature and oil pressure is a very good idea. We're
> talking about automotive design and how systems integrate
> (e.g. when it comes to using space; offering safety to the
> passengers; etc.). A contingent of engineers will be focused
> on passenger comfort, and with the marketing department,
> they will run the numbers and find that the seat warmers
> sell X amount of cars at Y price, so they need to make it
> work for Z dollars a car.

Actually, good engineering means reducing the number of gauges. Imagine
if every operation on your computer required a gauge. You'd have one for
your disk drives, ethernet card, wireless card, one for each of your USB
drives, for the temperature, a bunch for different keyboard settings,
for your floppy diskdrive (older machine only), your fire wire, for the
state of the batteries, your video port, the audio I/O, etc.

Your computer would have more gauges than a nuclear power plant (and
Bush wouldn't be able to say it, either).

> Related aside: Laypeople of course can discuss this topic
> intelligently, because this is about tradeoffs. Many of
> these tradeoffs are understandable simply with the
> application of common sense.

What about priests and other clergy members? Should they be able to
understand it?

There is some good info about how engines work on the internet (How
stuff works has a lot). Plus, there is this neat building(s) in most
towns called "a library" where they have books on the subject.

And if you're in school, you can ask your science teacher, too.

jeff

On Apr 4, 1:56*pm, bubbabu...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80
> miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small
> vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda
> Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp
> gauge, just an "idiot light."
>
> Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water
> temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ?
>
> Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major
> engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point
> where the head gasket is blown?
>
> Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would
> be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/
> ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting
> from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be
> several years down the road.)
>
> TIA,
> Bubba

In my experience most drivers glance at the temp gauge rarely, if at
all. It is for that reason that most cars equipped with a temperature
gauge also come with a linked idiot light and sometimes a text-based
screen to alert the driver. I don't see where the loss of a
temperature gauge is any big deal for most drivers.

If you want a temp gauge, just add an aftermarket one on one of those
baseline cars you mentioned.

Steve wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>>
>>> He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his ass....
>>
>> says the guy that thinks a dummy water temp meter is giving him useful
>> information!!!
>
> Stop drinking your name-sake while posting and you might understand more.
>
> A major component of my WHOLE ARGUMENT in this thread has been that
> DUMMY gauges are just idiot lights with pointers and are therefore as
> useless as an idiot light. How could you POSSIBLY have missed that,
> other than deliberately doing so just to pick an argument?
>
>

so why were /you/ making such a big noise about wanting a gauge?

quote:
"Gauges warn before the problem gets critical."

"The whole point is that the gauge will tell you when some things are wrong"

but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use.

quote:
"gauges are just idiot lights with pointers"

so you're contradicting yourself and arguing for nothing!

bottom line: if you want full instrumentation, install it yourself. the
stuff you get with the car is good enough for the job it has to do. any
/real/ engineer should know that.

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote
> Actually, good engineering means reducing the number of
> gauges.

The meaning of "good engineering" depends on the goals of
what is being engineered. E.g. for a vehicle where engineers
and technicians are trying to improve XYZ, additional gages
ABC may be warranted, at least temporarily.

Elle wrote:
> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote
>> Actually, good engineering means reducing the number of
>> gauges.
>
> The meaning of "good engineering" depends on the goals of
> what is being engineered. E.g. for a vehicle where engineers
> and technicians are trying to improve XYZ, additional gages
> ABC may be warranted, at least temporarily.
>
>

but in this day and age, you'd just record the computer's data output.
it's a host of feeds available, engine temp being just one of them. in
real time.

"Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote in message
news:FrudnV-7rK6JZpDVnZ2dnUVZ_rfinZ2d@texas.net...
> Ray O wrote:
>> "Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote in message
>> news:AICdnRksappCbpHVnZ2dnUVZ_sKqnZ2d@texas.net...
>> <snipped>
>>> Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking
>>> down, looks like an old flashlight, has a cover for when you're not
>>> racing... not the dumb little up-arrow on the dashboard that comes on
>>> whenever Toyota thinks you should be using less fuel.
>>>
>>
>> Toyota did not equip any cars with shift lights.
>
> 80s Corollas sure had them.
>

My memory must be getting bad... I don't remember shift lights in any 80's
Corollas, or any Toyotas, at least while I worked for Toyota.


--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)