Honda Car Forum

"Hachiroku" <trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote in message
news:NxxOj.147$Y81.83@trndny09...
> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:06:33 -0700, Comboverfish wrote:
>
>> On Apr 17, 10:33 pm, ray <rollingviolat...@domain.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> <brag>
>>> My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. And
>>> they appear to either be real gauges or very convincing software
>>> "clones" - oil pressure starts high at a cold start, varies with RPM and
>>> is lower at idle when the engine is warm. It even registers a bit
>>> higher when I run 10W30 in it vs 5W30. </brag>
>>>
>>> Of course, it didn't come with a shift light.
>>
>> An interesting note to the "Godsend" GM shift light is that it was
>> operated by the same circuit (and then slightly modified by vehicle speed
>> rationality logic) as the torque converter lock up circuit used on
>> automatic trans models. Sure miss *that* feature :-)
>>
>> Toyota MDT in MO
>
> Comboverfish!
>
> Stop hanging around in r.a.t (hey, how about that!) and come back to us!!!
>
> As for those lights, I had one in a Jetta, and got WORSE fuel economy
> using it!
>
>
I've got one in my Jeep. I set my steering wheel height so that I just do
not see it at all.
Tomes

Hachiroku wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:06:33 -0700, Comboverfish wrote:
>
>
>>On Apr 17, 10:33 pm, ray <rollingviolat...@domain.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>><brag>
>>>My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. And
>>>they appear to either be real gauges or very convincing software
>>>"clones" - oil pressure starts high at a cold start, varies with RPM and
>>>is lower at idle when the engine is warm. It even registers a bit
>>>higher when I run 10W30 in it vs 5W30. </brag>
>>>
>>>Of course, it didn't come with a shift light.
>>
>>An interesting note to the "Godsend" GM shift light is that it was
>>operated by the same circuit (and then slightly modified by vehicle speed
>>rationality logic) as the torque converter lock up circuit used on
>>automatic trans models. Sure miss *that* feature :-)
>>
>>Toyota MDT in MO
>
>
>
> Comboverfish!
>
> Stop hanging around in r.a.t (hey, how about that!) and come back to us!!!
>
> As for those lights, I had one in a Jetta, and got WORSE fuel economy
> using it!
>
>



Hell... My ol' '83 Civic FE has a shift light that is controlled by
tach speeds. I find it to be generally annoying..

JT

>>>
>>> Of course, it didn't come with a shift light.
>>>
>>> Ray
>>
>> Anyone who actually uses a shift light should stick to driving
>> automatics.... ;-)
>>
>
> The purpose of the shift light is for drag racing. When the nitrous
> kicks in, it's important that I don't hit the factory rev limiter.


Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking
down, looks like an old flashlight, has a cover for when you're not
racing... not the dumb little up-arrow on the dashboard that comes on
whenever Toyota thinks you should be using less fuel.


>
> And anyone who makes a comment about shift lights and automatics
> probably doesn't (a) bracket race or (b) have 400+ hp on tap.

OR just didn't understand the kind of light you meant.

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <xZydnWiar5SOLJXVnZ2dnUVZ_rGhnZ2d@texas.net>,
> Steve <no@spam.thanks> wrote:
>
>>> At any rate, now we know what your ACTUAL complaint is. You can't find
>>> a car to suit your particular tastes.
>>>
>>> Ain't that a bitch.
>>>
>> Again, its not MY problem, I'm just commenting on it as a symptom of how
>> ignorant of how a car works the average driver has become.
>
> No, it's a symptom of how appliance-like the cars have become--which
> depends on, and also feeds, the fact that auto transportation has become
> a necessity--not a hobby, not a luxury.

Really? The media keep telling us just how unnecessary it is. Live in a
high-rise. Take the bus. Ride a bike. Its the new urbanism. </sacrcasm>
>
> When the Model T came out, you had to know everything about the car and
> be your own mechanic. Of course, that was OK back then. Now imagine
> the Model T being the primary source of transportation today.
>
> Face it: technology starts out in the labs, then hits the early
> adopters, then eventually becomes mainstream--and appliance-like.

Cars were already appliance-like in 1940, but they still had real
instrumentation. And appliances can be either versatile equipment with a
good operator interface, or cheap crap from Target too.

I
> don't have to know how a computer works just to be able to take and send
> pictures on my cell phone.

But it damn sure helps if you have a clue. It lets you do more, do it
better, and be more productive than the appliance-user. And knowledge
prevents you from being dependent on a sysadmin somewhere.
>
> You don't like that technology becomes an appliance. Tough shit.
> That's how life works.
>

Fortunately there are still plenty of cars for people who ENJOY cars
out there.

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <wKidndW1GcsTMZXVnZ2dnUVZ_tOtnZ2d@texas.net>,
> Steve <no@spam.thanks> wrote:
>
>>> Ah, so it CAN leak. Wouldn't you want to know if that happened?
>> The probability of a rock flying into the condesor coils underneath my
>> fridge and causing a leak is astronomically low.
>
> True. But the probability of your $900 fridge being a cheap piece of
> Chinese junk and leaking coolant and ruining the food in your fridge is
> MUCH greater today than it ever has been.
>
> Hence, it would be prudent to protect your food investment, if nothing
> else, by using such a gauge.
>

Its more important to buy a good fridge, not a piece of crap from made
in China. All it takes is a little awareness on the buyer's part. And
the ability to read the data plate... but maybe literacy IS too much to
ask these days.

jim beam wrote:

> no dude, it's the other way around. the engineers doctor the gauge so
> it only tells you two things - normal and too hot, and only one of those
> is important.

That's simply not true. The HISTORY of the situation is that engineers
installed gauges for years. Then came idiot lights because designers and
stylists liked the "modern, all-electric" look of the dashboards they
could create. Then gauges made a comeback. THEN, the automakers started
getting complaints from people who'd grown up on idiot lights, and
didn't understand normal behavior, most particularly of the oil pressure.

THAT is when the "dummy" gauges that read mid-scale or nothing at all
appeared.

> left to their own devices, they'd leave the waste of
> space out.

Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if left to their
own devices. Left to their own devices they'd install an oil pressure
gauge before the filter, one after, and one at the last feed off the oil
galley. You'd have a water temp gauge before and after the radiator, a
transmission oil temperature gauge before and after the cooler, and 8
individual exhaust gas temperature probes.


>it's the marketing lizards that insist on a gauge because
> people like you think they need one and get all amped up about a subject
> they haven't bothered to analyze or don't understand. even when given
> the facts.

He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his ass....

"Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote
> Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if
> left to their own devices. Left to their own devices
> they'd install an oil pressure gauge before the filter,
> one after, and one at the last feed off the oil galley.
> You'd have a water temp gauge before and after the
> radiator, a transmission oil temperature gauge before and
> after the cooler, and 8 individual exhaust gas temperature
> probes.

This would fail to solve the first engineering problem,
which is have a good car of xyz dimensions. You can't get
everything in without trading off something else that is
important to the engineering. It's also false that engineers
do not make economic decisions. In this instance, more gages
= more manufacturing costs = less than optimal sales and
profit.

"Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote in message
news:AICdnRksappCbpHVnZ2dnUVZ_sKqnZ2d@texas.net...
<snipped>
> Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking
> down, looks like an old flashlight, has a cover for when you're not
> racing... not the dumb little up-arrow on the dashboard that comes on
> whenever Toyota thinks you should be using less fuel.
>

Toyota did not equip any cars with shift lights.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Steve wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> Of course, it didn't come with a shift light.
>>>>
>>>> Ray
>>>
>>> Anyone who actually uses a shift light should stick to driving
>>> automatics.... ;-)
>>>
>>
>> The purpose of the shift light is for drag racing. When the nitrous
>> kicks in, it's important that I don't hit the factory rev limiter.
>
>
> Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking
> down, looks like an old flashlight, has a cover for when you're not
> racing... not the dumb little up-arrow on the dashboard that comes on
> whenever Toyota thinks you should be using less fuel.
>
>
>>
>> And anyone who makes a comment about shift lights and automatics
>> probably doesn't (a) bracket race or (b) have 400+ hp on tap.
>
> OR just didn't understand the kind of light you meant.

LOL. Yeah, my truck has the "hey dummy, upshift light you're going to
get an extra .25 mpg" and my TA is getting the "hey dummy, upshift
because the rev limiter's gonna kick in and you're gonna blow the motor"
light. (It's after I replace the shredded factory clutch.)

I forget that shift lights mean different things - when I say shift
light I assume the latter one.

Ray

Steve wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> no dude, it's the other way around. the engineers doctor the gauge so
>> it only tells you two things - normal and too hot, and only one of
>> those is important.
>
> That's simply not true. The HISTORY of the situation is that engineers
> installed gauges for years. Then came idiot lights because designers and
> stylists liked the "modern, all-electric" look of the dashboards they
> could create. Then gauges made a comeback. THEN, the automakers started
> getting complaints from people who'd grown up on idiot lights, and
> didn't understand normal behavior, most particularly of the oil pressure.
>
> THAT is when the "dummy" gauges that read mid-scale or nothing at all
> appeared.
>
>> left to their own devices, they'd leave the waste of space out.
>
> Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if left to their
> own devices.

if for their own testing, no. but engineers make stuff to be used by
people that don't know what they're doing. like you.


> Left to their own devices they'd install an oil pressure
> gauge before the filter, one after, and one at the last feed off the oil
> galley. You'd have a water temp gauge before and after the radiator, a
> transmission oil temperature gauge before and after the cooler, and 8
> individual exhaust gas temperature probes.

so you think an "engineer" is going to put a 747 flight deck
instrumentation cluster into my grandmothers lincoln and expect her to
learn to use it???? engineers aren't stupid.

>
>
>> it's the marketing lizards that insist on a gauge because people like
>> you think they need one and get all amped up about a subject they
>> haven't bothered to analyze or don't understand. even when given the
>> facts.
>
> He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his ass....

says the guy that thinks a dummy water temp meter is giving him useful
information!!!