Honda Car Forum

On 4/25/2008 2:12 PM Steve spake these words of knowledge:

> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In article <gdednfP4CvgnIo3VnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@texas.net>,
>> Steve <no@spam.thanks> wrote:
>>
>>>> but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use.
>>> Not at all. Gauges do warn you before things get critical,
>>
>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people know
>> how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong presumption.
>
> A minority, but fairly large, percentage of car buyers are enthusiasts
> that understand how things work.
>
>>
>> Without the operator knowing how the machine works in the first place, a
>> gauge is absolutely useless.
>
> My wife doesn't have a clue how things work. She still told me, "the
> temperature gauge on my car is going about a half-division higher than
> it used to when I'm at a light, do you think something might be wrong?"
> That's when I found the dead fan motor. That would have never...
> NEVER... happened with a light or an "idiot" gauge that snaps to its
> normal range or to 'overheat'. The gauge in her car is entirely modern-
> its digitally driven by the body control module based on a feed from the
> powertrain control module, which gets the information from the analog
> sensor... HOWEVER, it moves linearly and accurately with temperature
> inside the normal operating range and a bit to either side, so you can
> very clearly see small changes. Its the best of both worlds.
>
>
>>
>> See, your mind is in a very, very narrow place.
>
> Not as narrow as yours, apparently. You're the one that wants to force
> every driver to the lowest common denominator of instrumentation.
>
>> YOU wanted to know how
>> the thing works, so YOU found out. Others don't know, don't want to
>> know, and in many cases can't understand it even if they try. A gauge
>> is useless to those people.
>
> Its also harmless to them. Better yet, after watching a gauge a while,
> they'll learn what it means just like my wife did.

Steve,

the people responding to you are not amenable to logic. Just so you
know, there are people who understand that in this case, more
information is either useful or, if discarded/ignored, harmless.

RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
--
Age doesn't always bring wisdom. Sometimes age comes alone.

On 4/25/2008 8:45 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:

> Steve wrote:
>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>
>>> Unless you know the principles of operation of the whole machine, the
>>> gauge will indicate nothing to you.
>>
>> Not true at all for something as simple as oil pressure and water
>> temperature! This isn't rocket science.
>>
>>> It may be behaving perfectly normal within its own context, but if you
>>> don't know the context then you don't understand its behavior.
>>
>> And my grandparents and great-grandparents, some of whom never completed
>> high school (and at least one grandmother CERTAINLY didn't "understand
>> the operation of the whole machine") read analog temperature and oil
>> pressure gauges perfectly well. Never melted down an engine, never took
>> it in to the mechanic unnecessarily either. Are you telling me that
>> driving-age people of 2008 are simply too stupid to do such a simple task?
>
> i think he's telling you that some people are too stupid to understand
> that a typical gauge doesn't tell people much. and in some rare cases,
> some individuals can't be told anything, no matter how hard it's dumbed
> down.

This may be the most ironic statement I have ever read.

RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
--
Mediocrity requires aloofness to preserve it's dignity.

In article <48135f37$0$5721$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
Dave Kelsen <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> > Its also harmless to them. Better yet, after watching a gauge a while,
> > they'll learn what it means just like my wife did.
>
> Steve,
>
> the people responding to you are not amenable to logic. Just so you
> know, there are people who understand that in this case, more
> information is either useful or, if discarded/ignored, harmless.

It's not harmless at all--as described earlier in this thread, with
fluctuating gauges simply reflecting normal operation. But, the
ignorant people seeing the fluctuation immediately assumed "something's
wrong," and took the car in for service.

In article <w5Wdnfyn7bJRwI7VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:

> > Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight in
> > warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that there's a
> > failure in the cooling fan controls or else the cooling system is
> > partially plugged with rust, scale, or overenthusiastic application of
> > "stop leak" products.
> >
> > You can't get that kind of info from an idiot light.
> >
> > nate
> >
>
> how far do you want to take this? you can go hog wild and measure the
> working temperature of each piston, each bearing and each exhaust valve
> if you really want, and you can justify it in terms of "predicting more
> serious problems".

That's what Steve and his narrow-minded people want. They don't
understand the REAL world in which the typical car buyer lives.

Dave Kelsen <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>the people responding to you are not amenable to logic. Just so you
>know, there are people who understand that in this case, more
>information is either useful or, if discarded/ignored, harmless.

That's right. In another few years, they'll eliminate ALL the
instrumentation. No more speedometers, since automated governors
linked by radio to the electronic highway system will make it
impossible to speed. No more temperature gauges, voltmeters, or
oil pressure gauges.

In the new era, there will just be one light on the dashboard,
that says "REPLACE CAR" and when it comes on, the GPS system will
print directions to the nearest GM dealer that you can give to the
taxi cab driver that Onstar will dispatch.

Oh, actually, I take that back. They'll still be selling automatics
with a tachometer, because everybody knows tachometers are cool.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <w5Wdnfyn7bJRwI7VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>>> Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight in
>>> warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that there's a
>>> failure in the cooling fan controls or else the cooling system is
>>> partially plugged with rust, scale, or overenthusiastic application of
>>> "stop leak" products.
>>>
>>> You can't get that kind of info from an idiot light.
>>>
>>> nate
>>>
>> how far do you want to take this? you can go hog wild and measure the
>> working temperature of each piston, each bearing and each exhaust valve
>> if you really want, and you can justify it in terms of "predicting more
>> serious problems".
>
> That's what Steve and his narrow-minded people want. They don't
> understand the REAL world in which the typical car buyer lives.
>

doesn't understand the world in which anyone lives.

once the machine is tested and out the door, the detailed
instrumentation is done. i have absolutely no desire to know my exhaust
valve temperatures because i know that they can operate for over 1000
hours, at the highest temperature the engine can produce, with 99.9999%
probability that they will remain within spec. any "engineer" or
"enthusiast" that /thinks/ they need to monitor this situation beyond
that is either didn't do their homework, is not confident of their own
abilities or /knows/ they didn't do something right in testing or
production.

Dave Kelsen wrote:
> On 4/25/2008 8:45 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:
>
>> Steve wrote:
>>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>
>>>> Unless you know the principles of operation of the whole machine,
>>>> the gauge will indicate nothing to you.
>>>
>>> Not true at all for something as simple as oil pressure and water
>>> temperature! This isn't rocket science.
>>>
>>>> It may be behaving perfectly normal within its own context, but if
>>>> you don't know the context then you don't understand its behavior.
>>>
>>> And my grandparents and great-grandparents, some of whom never
>>> completed high school (and at least one grandmother CERTAINLY didn't
>>> "understand the operation of the whole machine") read analog
>>> temperature and oil pressure gauges perfectly well. Never melted down
>>> an engine, never took it in to the mechanic unnecessarily either. Are
>>> you telling me that driving-age people of 2008 are simply too stupid
>>> to do such a simple task?
>>
>> i think he's telling you that some people are too stupid to understand
>> that a typical gauge doesn't tell people much. and in some rare
>> cases, some individuals can't be told anything, no matter how hard
>> it's dumbed down.
>
> This may be the most ironic statement I have ever read.
>

one for you dave:
http://www.tfot.info/news/1094/some-...ver-learn.html

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Dave Kelsen <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> the people responding to you are not amenable to logic. Just so you
>> know, there are people who understand that in this case, more
>> information is either useful or, if discarded/ignored, harmless.
>
> That's right. In another few years, they'll eliminate ALL the
> instrumentation. No more speedometers, since automated governors
> linked by radio to the electronic highway system will make it
> impossible to speed. No more temperature gauges, voltmeters, or
> oil pressure gauges.
>
> In the new era, there will just be one light on the dashboard,
> that says "REPLACE CAR" and when it comes on, the GPS system will
> print directions to the nearest GM dealer that you can give to the
> taxi cab driver that Onstar will dispatch.
>
> Oh, actually, I take that back. They'll still be selling automatics
> with a tachometer, because everybody knows tachometers are cool.
> --scott

you've never worked in customer support then...

jim beam wrote:
>
> Nate Nagel wrote:
but the reality is, on a properly maintained system,
> this is a zero issue.


I thought he was talking about properly maintaining the cooling fans. Some
people drive cars that have more than a 1000 hours on them.

-jim



>and it's only vaguely useful on improperly
> maintained ones - just like you describe - because by then, it's usually
> too late.
>
> it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way
> competent standards of maintenance. if those standards are not kept,
> and you describe them perfectly, then i think a manufacturer is
> perfectly entitled to abandon the vehicle [and its instrumentation] to
> its fate.


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jim beam wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>
>>>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <VoWdnSHDqL-qsI_VnZ2dnUVZ_tSknZ2d@texas.net>,
>>>>> Steve <no@spam.thanks> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people
>>>>>>> know how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong
>>>>>>> presumption.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A minority, but fairly large, percentage of car buyers are
>>>>>> enthusiasts that understand how things work.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And they are not the audience the carmakers want.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Incorrect. They want knowledgeable people to recommend their
>>>> vehicles to their friends, neighbors and family members.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> so by looking at the "temperature gauge", you can assess the
>>> vehicle's performance and reliability and thus offer a sales
>>> endorsement? dude, you're priceless! keep it rolling - this is
>>> great! homer simpson builds the canyonero!
>>
>>
>> Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight in
>> warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that there's
>> a failure in the cooling fan controls or else the cooling system is
>> partially plugged with rust, scale, or overenthusiastic application of
>> "stop leak" products.
>>
>> You can't get that kind of info from an idiot light.
>>
>> nate
>>
>
> how far do you want to take this? you can go hog wild and measure the
> working temperature of each piston, each bearing and each exhaust valve
> if you really want, and you can justify it in terms of "predicting more
> serious problems". but the reality is, on a properly maintained system,
> this is a zero issue. and it's only vaguely useful on improperly
> maintained ones - just like you describe - because by then, it's usually
> too late.

But that is precisely how most non-enthusiast-owned vehicles are
maintained. People do the bare minimum to keep the vehicle running, and
generally plan on trading it in at 5 years old or less, and/or driving
it until the wheels fall off at 7-8 years old. Do you want to buy a
used car from one of these people?

> it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way
> competent standards of maintenance.

Yes, it is, because those do not reflect reality.

> if those standards are not kept,
> and you describe them perfectly, then i think a manufacturer is
> perfectly entitled to abandon the vehicle [and its instrumentation] to
> its fate.

Sure, but that will drastically affect resale value of used cars, when
buyers don't want to touch them and/or consider them disposable after a
couple years and price them accordingly.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
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