Honda Car Forum

John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:7sP1j.4643$ng.726@trnddc08:

> Tegger wrote:
>> John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> news:YeL1j.5127$dh.2362@trnddc05:
>>
>>> Tegger wrote:
>>>
>>>> You can find ethanol-free gas almost everywhere. It's usually in
>>>> the form of the the "premium" octane grades, like 91 pump octane.
>>>> The lower the octane, the higher the ethanol content. But you won't
>>>> find non-oxygenated anywhere in North America now that MMT is out
>>>> of use.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You have that one backwards Tegger. Ethanol has a naturally high
>>> octane
>>> variously reported at somewhere from 113 to 129 and is used in
>>> fuels
>>> in part to increase the final octane rating.
>>>
>>> http://www.gov.mb.ca/est/energy/ethanol/ethanolfaq.html
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
>>>
>>> In many cases premium fuels actually have a higher ethanol content
>>> than their regular fuel counterparts because adding ethanol is one
>>> of the simple ways to increase octane ratings.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I filled up today at a local Shell.
>>
>> On the pump was a sticker. It said:
>> "87 octane: contains up to 10% ethanol
>> 89 octane: contains up to 5% ethanol
>> 91 octane: contains no ethanol."
>>
>> Want me to take a picture and post it?
>>
>>
>
> Post whatever you like, but the fact is that ethanol is a higher
> octane fuel than standard "gasoline" and is commonly used as an octane
> booster.




But ethanol is not used as a fuel in road cars, only as an additive in
gasoline fuel. The Manitoba document you cite explicitly says you could
not practically use ethanol as a fuel in road-going cars.

Ethanol may be a high-octane additive, but it's a particularly poor
choice as a gasoline octane booster. Ethanol was a non-starter (ha ha)
before the government started hiding its real cost by taking money from
your left pocket so they could put it in your right, and then by
mandating the use of ethanol.



> I have no idea where you live



Ontario, Canada.




> or what the situation is with your Shell station.



All the Shells in my province have that sticker, from what I've seen.

The Esso stations in my province all have stickers that say the gas "may
contain up to 10% ethanol". But then I checked the MSDS's for Esso's
unleaded gasoline. No ethanol at all, just MTBE (up to 15%).

Those pump stickers may be a legal labeling requirement rather than a
reflection of what's actually in the gas.

Shell's MSDS's do not even list the octane booster. They say only that
gasoline makes up ">90%" of the fuel mix. Shell is probably taking
advantage of the "proprietary" exemption from revealing its oxygenate in
the MSDS's.



>
> Have a look at the reference articles I posted



I just did. The Manitoba government article is your typical
ethanol-loony propaganda bumpf. Manitoba farmers are reaping a
substantial financial harvest from the ethanol mandates, at the expense
of taxpayers across the country.

However, that article did contain this nugget:
"In order to produce Regular Unleaded gasoline with ethanol, a blender
must have access to an 84.5 octane (or "sub-octane") grade of petro-gas.
In some markets sub octane gasoline is not made available to blenders.
In these locations, Regular Unleaded (the lowest price grade gasoline
with the highest sales volume) does not contain ethanol. In markets
where sub octane gasoline is available, however, ethanol blended Regular
is usually less costly than petro-gas Regular."

I think the answer here may be that in my area they may be using sub-
octane to make Regular. Then they're relying on the heavy tax subsidies
that accompany ethanol to be able to offer heavily ethanolized Regular.

Grades above Regular may use better base stocks which do not require so
much ethanol to make them usable, but then the seller can't claim those
subsidies, so has to charge more.

And if our 91-octane uses MTBE instead of ethanol, there are no
subsidies at all.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

An examble
2008 Chrysler Sebring mileage ratings
19/27 with gas
14/20 with E85 (85% ethanol)
This site shows
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/24007.shtml

From:
>tegger@tegger.c0m (Tegger)
>But ethanol is not used as a fuel in road
>cars, only as an additive in gasoline fuel.
Explain E85. Is using 85% Ethanol still considered an additive?

QUAKEnSHAKE@webtv.net (QUAKEnSHAKE) wrote in news:23468-474AFF16-992
@storefull-3154.bay.webtv.net:

>
> From:
>>tegger@tegger.c0m (Tegger)
>>But ethanol is not used as a fuel in road
>>cars, only as an additive in gasoline fuel.
>
>
> Explain E85. Is using 85% Ethanol still considered an additive?
>



I forgot about that. In that case the alcohol *is* being used as a fuel.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:51:13 -0600, QUAKEnSHAKE@webtv.net
(QUAKEnSHAKE) wrote:

>
>An examble
>2008 Chrysler Sebring mileage ratings
>19/27 with gas
>14/20 with E85 (85% ethanol)
>This site shows
>http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/24007.shtml

Check out the flex fuel vehicles:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfuel/FFV2008.shtml

notice how they are almost all trucks? The reason is that they get a
big credit on their CAFE when they sell a flex-fuel vehicle. So,
while you may think that your GMC Yukon only gets 15 mpg, GM gets a
credit for building a 33 mpg truck. No shit. Of course few of these
trucks will ever see E85. But the phony fuel economy rating allows GM
to sell more Suburbans, Hummers and Yukons. In this very real way,
E85 is helping to squander fuel and trash the environment.