Honda Car Forum

Hello, I just changed the timing belt of a 97 civic dx hatch, we
screwed up the timing the first time(crankshaft pully moved) adjusted
it again and set the line on the pulley to the arrow on the block and
the up arrow was set for the camshaft at the top. this was double
checked to make sure it was accurate.

On reassembly valve clearences were adjusted to factory spec.

I took a timing light to it and at ~2.5-3k rpm the timing lines up
with the red mark on the pulley. The gas can be held and it'll keep
running as long as the rpms are ~2k or higher, any lower and it stalls
out. Went for a short drive, car is totally gutless till ~5-6k rpm and
even then it's weak.

when we got everything back together and started the car the check
engine light came on, jumped the ecu and got a 72 code (Misfire on
cylinder #2)



I'm thinking at this point that I must have made an error when the
timing belt was put on and the timing is off there. If that's not the
case then I have no idea why it's idle is so bad.

I reset the ECU by pulling the battery connectors for a good 10min or
so, next time it started the 72 code came back shortly.


Any ideas how to get the car to idle correctly and what might be going
on?

ChaoticEntity@gmail.com wrote in news:1189402352.188080.6440@
57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com:

> Hello, I just changed the timing belt of a 97 civic dx hatch, we
> screwed up the timing the first time(crankshaft pully moved) adjusted
> it again and set the line on the pulley to the arrow on the block and
> the up arrow was set for the camshaft at the top. this was double
> checked to make sure it was accurate.
>
> On reassembly valve clearences were adjusted to factory spec.



How far out were they when you started? If they were WAY out, then your
belt is still on there incorrectly.


>
> I took a timing light to it and at ~2.5-3k rpm the timing lines up
> with the red mark on the pulley.



"Red mark"? Is this the middle one of the group of three? Or is it the one
that's all by itself?




--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

> ChaoticEntity@gmail.com wrote in news:1189402352.188080.6440@
> 57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com:
>

>
>
>>
>> I took a timing light to it and at ~2.5-3k rpm the timing lines up
>> with the red mark on the pulley.
>
>


I missed something before...

The timing should be at the middle mark of the three
at **IDLE** with the Service Check connector shorted.

At 2500rpm it will be WAY off from ANY of the marks! You've done something
seriously wrong here.

Did you have a factory service manual before doing all the work?

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

ChaoticEntity@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello, I just changed the timing belt of a 97 civic dx hatch, we
> screwed up the timing the first time(crankshaft pully moved) adjusted
> it again and set the line on the pulley to the arrow on the block and
> the up arrow was set for the camshaft at the top. this was double
> checked to make sure it was accurate.

you need to check it again after the belt has been tensioned - the
symptoms say you're out.

>
> On reassembly valve clearences were adjusted to factory spec.
>
> I took a timing light to it and at ~2.5-3k rpm the timing lines up
> with the red mark on the pulley. The gas can be held and it'll keep
> running as long as the rpms are ~2k or higher, any lower and it stalls
> out. Went for a short drive, car is totally gutless till ~5-6k rpm and
> even then it's weak.

timing belt is set wrong. the cam gear is not just "up", but two marks
must align with the head surface.


>
> when we got everything back together and started the car the check
> engine light came on, jumped the ecu and got a 72 code (Misfire on
> cylinder #2)
>
>
>
> I'm thinking at this point that I must have made an error when the
> timing belt was put on and the timing is off there. If that's not the
> case then I have no idea why it's idle is so bad.
>
> I reset the ECU by pulling the battery connectors for a good 10min or
> so, next time it started the 72 code came back shortly.
>
>
> Any ideas how to get the car to idle correctly and what might be going
> on?
>

be logical - it worked before the belt change, it doesn't work after.
cam timing is the most likely error.

Tegger wrote:
>> ChaoticEntity@gmail.com wrote in news:1189402352.188080.6440@
>> 57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com:
>>
>
>>
>>> I took a timing light to it and at ~2.5-3k rpm the timing lines up
>>> with the red mark on the pulley.
>>
>
>
> I missed something before...
>
> The timing should be at the middle mark of the three
> at **IDLE** with the Service Check connector shorted.
>
> At 2500rpm it will be WAY off from ANY of the marks! You've done something
> seriously wrong here.

no kidding. shouldn't have to touch the ignition timing if the belt is
set right.


>
> Did you have a factory service manual before doing all the work?
>

ok, it was disassembled and put back together from the service manual
step by step. (misunderstood where crank TDC was, stupid mistake)


I double checked the timing was correct when the belt was put on, that
is that the cam marks lined up with the block and the crank pulley's
white TDC mark was lined up with the V notch and the point(it was dead
on) Then followed the tension procedure and after everything was
tightened the marks were checked again, this time they were near
perfect(the cam was perfect, the crank TDC mark was ~1mm from the
point(IE well within 2deg)

Now that it has been reassembled the timing is dead on that middle
(red) mark @ ~750-800rpm. This is a canadian model D16y7 so the idle
should be 750+-

Still runs lousy, no power, idles rough then dies. If you put it in
gear or anything it just wants to die on you. has almost no power till
~3-4k rpm and even after that it's far less than normal...

any ideas?

ChaoticEntity@gmail.com wrote:
> ok, it was disassembled and put back together from the service manual
> step by step. (misunderstood where crank TDC was, stupid mistake)
>
>
> I double checked the timing was correct when the belt was put on, that
> is that the cam marks lined up with the block and the crank pulley's
> white TDC mark was lined up with the V notch and the point(it was dead
> on) Then followed the tension procedure and after everything was
> tightened the marks were checked again, this time they were near
> perfect(the cam was perfect, the crank TDC mark was ~1mm from the
> point(IE well within 2deg)
>
> Now that it has been reassembled the timing is dead on that middle
> (red) mark @ ~750-800rpm. This is a canadian model D16y7 so the idle
> should be 750+-
>
> Still runs lousy, no power, idles rough then dies. If you put it in
> gear or anything it just wants to die on you. has almost no power till
> ~3-4k rpm and even after that it's far less than normal...
>
> any ideas?
>
>
i still say cam timing's off. it's easy to set the cam and the crank so
they align, but have the belt one tooth out simply by having the belt
slack. you need to assemble, tension, then re-check the mechanical
timing /afterwards/. carefully rotate the motor three times, then
slowly bring the crank timing point up to tdc keeping the belt under
tension. only then can you be 100% certain that cam timing is correct.

and to emphasize, ignition timing is a different matter entirely to cam
timing - ignition can look perfect with the cam 19 degrees out. the
gotcha check for this is the position of the distributor - it should be
roughly in the middle of the rotation slots. if the cam is out, it'll
be towards one end.

finally, use the right book - some are crap. helminc.com is the source
for factory honda service manuals - easily the best investment you'll
ever make in your honda if you do your own maintenance.

> i still say cam timing's off. it's easy to set the cam and the crank so
> they align, but have the belt one tooth out simply by having the belt
> slack. you need to assemble, tension, then re-check the mechanical
> timing /afterwards/. carefully rotate the motor three times, then
> slowly bring the crank timing point up to tdc keeping the belt under
> tension. only then can you be 100% certain that cam timing is correct.
>
> and to emphasize, ignition timing is a different matter entirely to cam
> timing - ignition can look perfect with the cam 19 degrees out. the
> gotcha check for this is the position of the distributor - it should be
> roughly in the middle of the rotation slots. if the cam is out, it'll
> be towards one end.
>
> finally, use the right book - some are crap. helminc.com is the source
> for factory honda service manuals - easily the best investment you'll
> ever make in your honda if you do your own maintenance.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

followed step by step from the honda service manual, well then
tomorrow I'll rotate the crank pulley to TDC, take the valve cover off
and check the marks on the camgear just to triple check the mechanical
timing.

Any ideas what it might be if it's not the timing? vacuum leak?

ChaoticEntity@gmail.com wrote in
news:1189498159.205638.139400@o80g2000hse.googlegr oups.com:

>
>> i still say cam timing's off. it's easy to set the cam and the crank
>> so they align, but have the belt one tooth out simply by having the
>> belt slack. you need to assemble, tension, then re-check the
>> mechanical timing /afterwards/. carefully rotate the motor three
>> times, then slowly bring the crank timing point up to tdc keeping the
>> belt under tension. only then can you be 100% certain that cam
>> timing is correct.
>>
>> and to emphasize, ignition timing is a different matter entirely to
>> cam timing - ignition can look perfect with the cam 19 degrees out.
>> the gotcha check for this is the position of the distributor - it
>> should be roughly in the middle of the rotation slots. if the cam is
>> out, it'll be towards one end.
>>
>> finally, use the right book - some are crap. helminc.com is the
>> source for factory honda service manuals - easily the best investment
>> you'll ever make in your honda if you do your own maintenance.- Hide
>> quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> followed step by step from the honda service manual, well then
> tomorrow I'll rotate the crank pulley to TDC, take the valve cover off
> and check the marks on the camgear just to triple check the mechanical
> timing.
>
> Any ideas what it might be if it's not the timing? vacuum leak?
>
>


Bent valve.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

ChaoticEntity@gmail.com wrote:
>> i still say cam timing's off. it's easy to set the cam and the crank so
>> they align, but have the belt one tooth out simply by having the belt
>> slack. you need to assemble, tension, then re-check the mechanical
>> timing /afterwards/. carefully rotate the motor three times, then
>> slowly bring the crank timing point up to tdc keeping the belt under
>> tension. only then can you be 100% certain that cam timing is correct.
>>
>> and to emphasize, ignition timing is a different matter entirely to cam
>> timing - ignition can look perfect with the cam 19 degrees out. the
>> gotcha check for this is the position of the distributor - it should be
>> roughly in the middle of the rotation slots. if the cam is out, it'll
>> be towards one end.
>>
>> finally, use the right book - some are crap. helminc.com is the source
>> for factory honda service manuals - easily the best investment you'll
>> ever make in your honda if you do your own maintenance.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> followed step by step from the honda service manual, well then
> tomorrow I'll rotate the crank pulley to TDC, take the valve cover off
> and check the marks on the camgear just to triple check the mechanical
> timing.
>
> Any ideas what it might be if it's not the timing? vacuum leak?
>

i agree with tegger - bent valve. you said that you adjusted the valves
to factory spec - were any significantly loose before you did that?
unless abused, honda valve lash rarely drifts that much.