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Old 20 Nov 2012, 09:33 pm
MummyChunk
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Default Honda unveils new diesel for overseas Civic... will it come here?

From AB



Honda Adds High Performance, Low Emission, Small Diesel Engine to the
Civic line-up

The new 1.6-litre i-DTEC diesel engine is the first engine from
Honda's Earth Dreams Technology series to be launched in Europe. The
engine will be introduced on the Civic at the beginning of 2013.
Combining competitive power (120 PS) and class-leading torque (300 Nm
@ 2000 rpm) with CO2 emissions of just 94 g/km the new Civic 1.6-litre
i-DTEC offers impressive fuel economy and performance.
"The key focus of our Earth Dreams Technology philosophy is to
balance environmental efficiency with the dynamic performance expected
of a Honda," says Suehiro Hasshi, Large Project Leader for all
Civic models in Europe including the 1.6-litre i-DTEC. "It is
important that our cars are fun to drive."

"This is a new approach from the ground up," Tetsuya Miyake,
Project Leader for the 1.6-litre i-DTEC engine. "There were no
benchmarks for us because those targets would have been too low. We
were determined to establish a benchmark of our own that our
competitors would have to follow."

"Developing this engine has been all about smart, pure
engineering," says Suehiro Hasshi. "Our motivation has been
to make many small detail improvements that, together, make a major
difference. That is the challenge and the beauty of the Earth Dreams
Technology philosophy."

The new 1.6-litre i-DTEC engine has been specifically designed for the
European market, to meet growing customer demand for low emission
diesel engines. The new engine will be uniquely built for the European
market at Honda's European manufacturing facility in Swindon, UK.
Demonstrating the importance of this new diesel engine to Honda's
sales plans in Europe, a new purpose built diesel engine production
line has been installed at Honda of the UK Manufacturing (HUM). This
new line is capable of producing up to 500 diesel engines in one day.
Operating on a two shift pattern this equates to 1 engine every 138
seconds. The new line will produce both the new 1.6-litre i-DTEC and
the existing 2.2-litre i-DTEC engines.

The 1.6-litre i-DTEC diesel engine will also be applied to the new
CR-V (also built at HUM) later in 2013, and the Earth Dreams
Technology philosophy will be applied to all of Honda's power trains
in the future.

The New Civic 1.6-litre i-DTEC: The Engine in Detail

Lightest Diesel Engine in its class

Honda's new 1.6-litre i-DTEC is comprised of an aluminium cylinder
head joined to an open deck aluminium block. It is the lightest diesel
engine in its class, weighing 47kg less than Honda's 2.2-litre i-DTEC
engine.

All the individual components have been redesigned to minimise their
weight and size and advanced production techniques have helped reduce
weight even further.

The thickness of the cylinder walls has been reduced to 8mm, compared
with 9mm for the 2.2-litre i-DTEC. This is an exceptional achievement
for a diesel engine. In addition, lighter pistons and connection rods
have been utilised in the 1.6-litre i-DTEC.

Reduced Mechanical Friction

The key target for Honda's development engineers was to reduce the
mechanical friction of the 1.6-litre i-DTEC engine to the level
equivalent of a petrol engine. "All the rotating parts have been
carefully optimised to reduce their friction," says Tetsuya
Miyake. For example, a shorter and thinner piston skirt has been used.
At 1500rpm, the 1.6-litre i-DTEC has around 40% less mechanical
friction than the 2.2-litre i-DTEC.
"This not only reduces emissions and improves fuel efficiency; it
also improves the engine's response, both on and off the throttle,
making the car more fun to drive. We have reduced the mechanical
friction of the engine to the level equivalent of an existing petrol
engine, which is an outstanding achievement."

Clever Turbocharger

The 4th generation Garrett turbocharger used on the 1.6-litre i-DTEC
engine features an efficient variable-nozzle design and its rotational
speed is precisely controlled by the car's electronics, minimising
turbo lag and providing an optimal combination of low- to mid-range
pull and high-speed performance. The turbo has a maximum boost
pressure of 1.5bar.

Efficient Fuel Injection System and Air Flow

Honda's 1.6 i-DTEC uses a Bosch solenoid injection system which is
capable of operating at a high pressure of 1800bar. A high fuel
pressure means that the fuel is injected at a faster rate and the
finer the atomization of the fuel spray. This improves the fuel mixing
with the air resulting in a cleaner and more efficient combustion
helping to achieve the low emissions and fuel consumption.
Honda's engineers have also worked to improve the volumetric
efficiency of the cylinders, employing a high intake flow and a high
swirl head port precisely controlling the combustion process to reduce
hot spots that create unwanted emissions. The engine air flow is
managed by using an EGR (Exhaust gas recirculation) system that
operates at high and low pressure to reduce NOx emissions.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 21 Nov 2012, 08:05 am
Steve
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Default Re: Honda unveils new diesel for overseas Civic... will it come here?

I doubt it will make it in the US. Years ago I asked the same question
about he diesel Accord. California has strict environmental laws and
it sets the standard for the rest of the country as automakers don't
want to spend money making a particular car one way for California, then
another way for the rest of the country

Happy Holidays

Steve
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 21 Nov 2012, 03:02 pm
SMS
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Default Re: Honda unveils new diesel for overseas Civic... will it come here?

On 11/21/2012 6:05 AM, Steve wrote:
> I doubt it will make it in the US. Years ago I asked the same question
> about he diesel Accord. California has strict environmental laws and
> it sets the standard for the rest of the country as automakers don't
> want to spend money making a particular car one way for California, then
> another way for the rest of the country


It's very different now. The problem in the past was that the available
diesel fuel was all high sulfur. It wasn't just California that banned
the sale of diesel cars, five states had bans. Now ultra-low sulfur
diesel fuel is the only diesel fuel allowed to be sold. Diesel cars are
again being sold in California. Actually they were never banned to be
registered, they were just not able to sold (you could bring in diesel
cars purchased in other states and register them in California).

What makes the most sense is plug-in hybrids. Even a 40 mile range would
cover the vast majority of daily commutes, and beyond that range the
petroleum engine kicks in. I don't think anyone has made a diesel hybrid
yet. Diesel engines cost a lot more to manufacture than gasoline
engines, so they probably won't catch on in the U.S., especially since
diesel fuel is more heavily taxed than gasoline.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 21 Nov 2012, 04:14 pm
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: Honda unveils new diesel for overseas Civic... will it come here?

In article <50ad416e$0$26829$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> I don't think anyone has made a diesel hybrid
> yet.


that's because the current hybrid technology is built around IC engines
with low torque and power at low RPMs complemented by the electric
motors, with the electric assist winding down as speed increases.

Diesel doesn't play in that type of technology.

I'm waiting for diesel-electric technology a la railroad trains and
ships--a diesel engine completely diassociated from the drivetrain,
doing nothing but generating power for the batteries which drive the
vehicle.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 21 Nov 2012, 05:36 pm
JRStern
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Default Re: Honda unveils new diesel for overseas Civic... will it come here?

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:14:23 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>In article <50ad416e$0$26829$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't think anyone has made a diesel hybrid
>> yet.

>
>that's because the current hybrid technology is built around IC engines
>with low torque and power at low RPMs complemented by the electric
>motors, with the electric assist winding down as speed increases.
>
>Diesel doesn't play in that type of technology.
>
>I'm waiting for diesel-electric technology a la railroad trains and
>ships--a diesel engine completely diassociated from the drivetrain,
>doing nothing but generating power for the batteries which drive the
>vehicle.


I'm still not entirely clear, but apparently the Chevy Volt has three
modes: all-electric, gas-engine to tranny, and gas-engine to
generator. I think.

Also I think the Fisker Karma is IC to generators (to battery) only.

Classic diesel-electric is IC to generator to motor, no battery.

J.

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 21 Nov 2012, 06:32 pm
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: Honda unveils new diesel for overseas Civic... will it come here?

In article <c6pqa8p8gh21ebmtpf3vvb18tiuf9p978m@4ax.com>,
JRStern <JRStern@foobar.invalid> wrote:

> >I'm waiting for diesel-electric technology a la railroad trains and
> >ships--a diesel engine completely diassociated from the drivetrain,
> >doing nothing but generating power for the batteries which drive the
> >vehicle.

>
> I'm still not entirely clear, but apparently the Chevy Volt has three
> modes: all-electric, gas-engine to tranny, and gas-engine to
> generator. I think.


Technically, that's exactly what the Prius has had for years now. But,
the base Prius design gives it only a mile or two on electric, no more.

But the Volt is a plug-in with batteries that can drive it for longer on
electric--30 or so miles. One can own the Volt and never invoke the
engine (except for the management software that runs the engine to keep
the gas fresh and whatnot).

There's a plug-in Prius, too, but its plug-in-ness gives it only 8 miles
or so on electric.

But overall, the Prius and the Volt are pretty much exactly the same
technology, with only minor differences. Oh, GM would love you to think
otherwise; their initial marketing completely dismissed the part where
the engine can provide direct motive power to the wheels. They wanted
the world to think that the engine was purely, solely, and only a
generator for the batteries. Even when they were caught building
nothing more than a Prius with bigger battery storage, they tried to
downplay how the engine "only occasionally and under very certain
conditions" would drive the wheels.

But when they had to own up to it, it came out that they built the GM
interpretation of the Prius. Bigger batteries and a wall plug are the
big difference, that's all.

Other than the physical form--I hate it--the Volt is the perfect car for
so many commuters in this country.

A diesel doesn't offer much if anything in that environment.

> Classic diesel-electric is IC to generator to motor, no battery.


That's what we need, but we don't have yet.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 21 Nov 2012, 10:21 pm
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Honda unveils new diesel for overseas Civic... will it come here?

On 11/21/2012 04:32 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article<c6pqa8p8gh21ebmtpf3vvb18tiuf9p978m@4ax.com >,
> JRStern<JRStern@foobar.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> I'm waiting for diesel-electric technology a la railroad trains and
>>> ships--a diesel engine completely diassociated from the drivetrain,
>>> doing nothing but generating power for the batteries which drive the
>>> vehicle.

>>
>> I'm still not entirely clear, but apparently the Chevy Volt has three
>> modes: all-electric, gas-engine to tranny, and gas-engine to
>> generator. I think.

>
> Technically, that's exactly what the Prius has had for years now. But,
> the base Prius design gives it only a mile or two on electric, no more.
>
> But the Volt is a plug-in with batteries that can drive it for longer on
> electric--30 or so miles. One can own the Volt and never invoke the
> engine (except for the management software that runs the engine to keep
> the gas fresh and whatnot).
>
> There's a plug-in Prius, too, but its plug-in-ness gives it only 8 miles
> or so on electric.
>
> But overall, the Prius and the Volt are pretty much exactly the same
> technology, with only minor differences. Oh, GM would love you to think
> otherwise; their initial marketing completely dismissed the part where
> the engine can provide direct motive power to the wheels. They wanted
> the world to think that the engine was purely, solely, and only a
> generator for the batteries. Even when they were caught building
> nothing more than a Prius with bigger battery storage, they tried to
> downplay how the engine "only occasionally and under very certain
> conditions" would drive the wheels.
>
> But when they had to own up to it, it came out that they built the GM
> interpretation of the Prius. Bigger batteries and a wall plug are the
> big difference, that's all.
>
> Other than the physical form--I hate it--the Volt is the perfect car for
> so many commuters in this country.
>
> A diesel doesn't offer much if anything in that environment.
>
>> Classic diesel-electric is IC to generator to motor, no battery.

>
> That's what we need, but we don't have yet.


i think the answer to the "whither diesel" question is much simpler.
and sinister.

diesels are fundamentally more thermodynamically more efficient. this
translates to better mpg's in the order of 10-25%. there is absolutely
NO WAY that kind of drop in consumption is ever going to be allowed to
happen in a country where political decisions are simply a matter of who
holds the purse strings. in this case, the confluence of the interests
of both wall st and the oil co's are aligned and absolutely unstoppable.

bogus "emissions" legislation is merely one of the means by which the
public's desire for diesels can be negated without too much resistance.
hard consumption data is available to consumers who own diesels.
emissions "data" isn't, and when enshrined into law by, you know,
"interested" parties, the public are never going to be able to argue
against it.


--
fact check required
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 24 Nov 2012, 09:28 pm
SMS
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Honda unveils new diesel for overseas Civic... will it come here?

On 11/21/2012 4:32 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <c6pqa8p8gh21ebmtpf3vvb18tiuf9p978m@4ax.com>,
> JRStern <JRStern@foobar.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> I'm waiting for diesel-electric technology a la railroad trains and
>>> ships--a diesel engine completely diassociated from the drivetrain,
>>> doing nothing but generating power for the batteries which drive the
>>> vehicle.

>>
>> I'm still not entirely clear, but apparently the Chevy Volt has three
>> modes: all-electric, gas-engine to tranny, and gas-engine to
>> generator. I think.

>
> Technically, that's exactly what the Prius has had for years now. But,
> the base Prius design gives it only a mile or two on electric, no more.


True, but the drive train is a bit different, see
<http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/1010_unbolting_the_chevy_volt_to_see_how_it_ticks/>.

--
Reagan raised taxes eleven times as President.
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