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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04 May 2012, 10:10 pm
jfindlay@gmail.com
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Default 1995 Accord power loss over 4500 RPMs

I have a 1995 honda accord LX f22b2 (2.2 L, no VTEC), manual transmission. Recently it started making a scraping or sucking sound when I go over about 4500 RPMs. This sound correlates with a very severe loss of power.

What is causing this?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 05 May 2012, 03:05 am
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: 1995 Accord power loss over 4500 RPMs

In article
<16727674.8.1336187417930.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbph1>,
jfindlay@gmail.com wrote:

> I have a 1995 honda accord LX f22b2 (2.2 L, no VTEC), manual transmission.
> Recently it started making a scraping or sucking sound when I go over about
> 4500 RPMs. This sound correlates with a very severe loss of power.
>
> What is causing this?


you have a vacuum hose that's not connected?
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 05 May 2012, 10:37 am
jfindlay@gmail.com
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Default Re: 1995 Accord power loss over 4500 RPMs

On Saturday, May 5, 2012 2:05:59 AM UTC-6, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> you have a vacuum hose that's not connected?


I looked over the vacuum system and found nothing disconnected. One of themetal tubes that hooks into the main intake tube maybe isn't sealed very well after 17 years. I guess I could check other things, but what vacuum component could cripple engine power so severely? I thought all vacuum linesserviced systems inessential to basic engine function. Could it have something to do with stoichiometry?
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 05 May 2012, 08:44 pm
Jim Yanik
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Default Re: 1995 Accord power loss over 4500 RPMs

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
news:elmop-03E45F.04055905052012@news.eternal-september.org:

> In article
><16727674.8.1336187417930.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbph1>,
> jfindlay@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I have a 1995 honda accord LX f22b2 (2.2 L, no VTEC), manual
>> transmission. Recently it started making a scraping or sucking sound
>> when I go over about 4500 RPMs. This sound correlates with a very
>> severe loss of power.
>>
>> What is causing this?

>
> you have a vacuum hose that's not connected?
>


crankcase PCV valve hose? restricted air filter? maybe sucked up something
into the intake ducting? Or your valve springs are tired and the valves are
floating at high RPMs.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 05 May 2012, 09:30 pm
jim beam
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Default Re: 1995 Accord power loss over 4500 RPMs

On 05/05/2012 06:44 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
<snip>

> Or your valve springs are tired and the valves are
> floating at high RPMs.


common myth, completely untrue. spring steel does not change stiffness
over time. period. if there are any issues with wear in other
componentry, there may possibly be float, but absolutely not as a
function of springs becoming "tired".


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06 May 2012, 01:36 am
jfindlay@gmail.com
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Default Re: 1995 Accord power loss over 4500 RPMs

At this point I'm favoring the intake suction problem since its the easiestto fix and the sound is mostly a continuous, rather than a punctuated sound.

On Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:30:31 PM UTC-6, jim beam wrote:
> On 05/05/2012 06:44 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > Or your valve springs are tired and the valves are
> > floating at high RPMs.

>
> common myth, completely untrue. spring steel does not change stiffness
> over time. period. if there are any issues with wear in other
> componentry, there may possibly be float, but absolutely not as a
> function of springs becoming "tired".


I'm a physics graduate student, and I know a few, but not many things aboutsolid state physics:
- ordinary metals are crystalline with a partially filled conduction band. Metallic atomic electronic configurations are far from the complete complement of spherical harmonics possessed by noble gases, so their atoms are hardly insular. This often results in great pliance, while maintaining some sort of crystalline strength.
- alloys derive their properties from impurities in the crystal structure, which alter the energy shape of the valance electron bands. In steels, thebasic impurity is carbon, but it is often augmented with other metals and main group elements, like silicon.
- No material will last forever; everything has a mean lifetime. The spectrum of EM and cosmic radiation incident on the biosphere provides both thermal and ballistic means for spontaneous chemical decay. Integrated over the lifetime of an object, these effects can be quite significant. Mechanical stress is effectively thermal in the microscopic regime. The convolutionof these effects over time can cause either fatigue or a rupture along crystal grain boundaries depending on how heterogeneous the crystal domains are, how significant the valance band energy structure is along grain boundaries, and how specific the mechanical stress is.

Every metallic structure from the Eiffel tower to the 16 valve springs in astraight 4 will find some destructive way to increase in entropy. For spring steel, I personally don't know whether this means a fatigued state (permanent deformation), or a macroscopic fracture, or some other form of physical change, but it will be something deformative.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06 May 2012, 08:59 am
MLD
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1995 Accord power loss over 4500 RPMs


<jfindlay@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11707972.160.1336286161272.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbbpz9...
At this point I'm favoring the intake suction problem since its the easiest
to fix and the sound is mostly a continuous, rather than a punctuated sound.

On Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:30:31 PM UTC-6, jim beam wrote:
> On 05/05/2012 06:44 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > Or your valve springs are tired and the valves are
> > floating at high RPMs.

>
> common myth, completely untrue. spring steel does not change stiffness
> over time. period. if there are any issues with wear in other
> componentry, there may possibly be float, but absolutely not as a
> function of springs becoming "tired".


I'm a physics graduate student, and I know a few, but not many things about
solid state physics:
- ordinary metals are crystalline with a partially filled conduction band.
Metallic atomic electronic configurations are far from the complete
complement of spherical harmonics possessed by noble gases, so their atoms
are hardly insular. This often results in great pliance, while maintaining
some sort of crystalline strength.
- alloys derive their properties from impurities in the crystal structure,
which alter the energy shape of the valance electron bands. In steels, the
basic impurity is carbon, but it is often augmented with other metals and
main group elements, like silicon.
- No material will last forever; everything has a mean lifetime. The
spectrum of EM and cosmic radiation incident on the biosphere provides both
thermal and ballistic means for spontaneous chemical decay. Integrated over
the lifetime of an object, these effects can be quite significant.
Mechanical stress is effectively thermal in the microscopic regime. The
convolution of these effects over time can cause either fatigue or a rupture
along crystal grain boundaries depending on how heterogeneous the crystal
domains are, how significant the valance band energy structure is along
grain boundaries, and how specific the mechanical stress is.

Every metallic structure from the Eiffel tower to the 16 valve springs in a
straight 4 will find some destructive way to increase in entropy. For
spring steel, I personally don't know whether this means a fatigued state
(permanent deformation), or a macroscopic fracture, or some other form of
physical change, but it will be something deformative.

I agree completely

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 06 May 2012, 10:06 am
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1995 Accord power loss over 4500 RPMs

On 05/05/2012 11:36 PM, jfindlay@gmail.com wrote:
> At this point I'm favoring the intake suction problem since its the
> easiest to fix and the sound is mostly a continuous, rather than a
> punctuated sound.
>
> On Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:30:31 PM UTC-6, jim beam wrote:
>> On 05/05/2012 06:44 PM, Jim Yanik wrote: <snip>
>>
>>> Or your valve springs are tired and the valves are floating at
>>> high RPMs.

>>
>> common myth, completely untrue. spring steel does not change
>> stiffness over time. period. if there are any issues with wear in
>> other componentry, there may possibly be float, but absolutely not
>> as a function of springs becoming "tired".

>
> I'm a physics graduate student, and I know a few, but not many things
> about solid state physics: - ordinary metals are crystalline with a
> partially filled conduction band. Metallic atomic electronic
> configurations are far from the complete complement of spherical
> harmonics possessed by noble gases, so their atoms are hardly
> insular. This often results in great pliance, while maintaining some
> sort of crystalline strength. - alloys derive their properties from
> impurities in the crystal structure, which alter the energy shape of
> the valance electron bands. In steels, the basic impurity is carbon,
> but it is often augmented with other metals and main group elements,
> like silicon. - No material will last forever; everything has a mean
> lifetime. The spectrum of EM and cosmic radiation incident on the
> biosphere provides both thermal and ballistic means for spontaneous
> chemical decay. Integrated over the lifetime of an object, these
> effects can be quite significant. Mechanical stress is effectively
> thermal in the microscopic regime. The convolution of these effects
> over time can cause either fatigue or a rupture along crystal grain
> boundaries depending on how heterogeneous the crystal domains are,
> how significant the valance band energy structure is along grain
> boundaries, and how specific the mechanical stress is.


oh. and all this time i though it was cottrell/bilby dislocation
atmospheres.


>
> Every metallic structure from the Eiffel tower to the 16 valve
> springs in a straight 4 will find some destructive way to increase in
> entropy. For spring steel, I personally don't know whether this
> means a fatigued state (permanent deformation), or a macroscopic
> fracture, or some other form of physical change, but it will be
> something deformative.


appeals to authority and pronounced credentials don't mean shit on
usenet kiddo. that's why i don't announce mine.

now, for your [needed] continuing education, deformation doesn't affect
modulus. wear affects spring pre-load, but it doesn't affect spring
rate. plastic deformation doesn't affect spring rate, it simply
shortens the spring. fatigue affects spring rate [mechanically - given
that the springs dimensions effectively change], for a short period as
the crack grows. but as you might learn later, the life of a spring
once a crack has nucleated and has started to grow, is short. the o.p.
would never know until it broke. [and a broken spring is not a
"floating" spring.]

as for your "entropic analysis", you also need to consider the
statistical reality that this vehicle has 16 valve springs. now, given
that the failure rate is less than 1 in 10^7 in 10^5 miles, i'm sure
even a physics undergrad can lower themselves to do the basic stats on
the likelihood of fatigue initiation and growth rates producing
"synchronized" results.

really, you should know better. look up valve float - what it actually
is and how it happens. then go look up honda's history on how they were
early adopters of the "new" cam profiles and how it's enabled them to
dispense with the "old" float mitigation techniques like dual springs on
their high revving engines.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07 May 2012, 10:43 am
dgk
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1995 Accord power loss over 4500 RPMs

On Sun, 06 May 2012 08:06:55 -0700, jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>On 05/05/2012 11:36 PM, jfindlay@gmail.com wrote:
>> At this point I'm favoring the intake suction problem since its the
>> easiest to fix and the sound is mostly a continuous, rather than a
>> punctuated sound.
>>
>> On Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:30:31 PM UTC-6, jim beam wrote:
>>> On 05/05/2012 06:44 PM, Jim Yanik wrote: <snip>
>>>
>>>> Or your valve springs are tired and the valves are floating at
>>>> high RPMs.
>>>
>>> common myth, completely untrue. spring steel does not change
>>> stiffness over time. period. if there are any issues with wear in
>>> other componentry, there may possibly be float, but absolutely not
>>> as a function of springs becoming "tired".

>>
>> I'm a physics graduate student, and I know a few, but not many things
>> about solid state physics: - ordinary metals are crystalline with a
>> partially filled conduction band. Metallic atomic electronic
>> configurations are far from the complete complement of spherical
>> harmonics possessed by noble gases, so their atoms are hardly
>> insular. This often results in great pliance, while maintaining some
>> sort of crystalline strength. - alloys derive their properties from
>> impurities in the crystal structure, which alter the energy shape of
>> the valance electron bands. In steels, the basic impurity is carbon,
>> but it is often augmented with other metals and main group elements,
>> like silicon. - No material will last forever; everything has a mean
>> lifetime. The spectrum of EM and cosmic radiation incident on the
>> biosphere provides both thermal and ballistic means for spontaneous
>> chemical decay. Integrated over the lifetime of an object, these
>> effects can be quite significant. Mechanical stress is effectively
>> thermal in the microscopic regime. The convolution of these effects
>> over time can cause either fatigue or a rupture along crystal grain
>> boundaries depending on how heterogeneous the crystal domains are,
>> how significant the valance band energy structure is along grain
>> boundaries, and how specific the mechanical stress is.

>
>oh. and all this time i though it was cottrell/bilby dislocation
>atmospheres.
>
>
>>
>> Every metallic structure from the Eiffel tower to the 16 valve
>> springs in a straight 4 will find some destructive way to increase in
>> entropy. For spring steel, I personally don't know whether this
>> means a fatigued state (permanent deformation), or a macroscopic
>> fracture, or some other form of physical change, but it will be
>> something deformative.

>
>appeals to authority and pronounced credentials don't mean shit on
>usenet kiddo. that's why i don't announce mine.
>
>now, for your [needed] continuing education, deformation doesn't affect
>modulus. wear affects spring pre-load, but it doesn't affect spring
>rate. plastic deformation doesn't affect spring rate, it simply
>shortens the spring. fatigue affects spring rate [mechanically - given
>that the springs dimensions effectively change], for a short period as
>the crack grows. but as you might learn later, the life of a spring
>once a crack has nucleated and has started to grow, is short. the o.p.
>would never know until it broke. [and a broken spring is not a
>"floating" spring.]
>
>as for your "entropic analysis", you also need to consider the
>statistical reality that this vehicle has 16 valve springs. now, given
>that the failure rate is less than 1 in 10^7 in 10^5 miles, i'm sure
>even a physics undergrad can lower themselves to do the basic stats on
>the likelihood of fatigue initiation and growth rates producing
>"synchronized" results.
>
>really, you should know better. look up valve float - what it actually
>is and how it happens. then go look up honda's history on how they were
>early adopters of the "new" cam profiles and how it's enabled them to
>dispense with the "old" float mitigation techniques like dual springs on
>their high revving engines.



I learned something today. I'm just not sure what it was.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 11 May 2012, 07:44 am
Al Moodie
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1995 Accord power loss over 4500 RPMs

On Fri, 4 May 2012 20:10:17 -0700 (PDT), jfindlay@gmail.com wrote:

>I have a 1995 honda accord LX f22b2 (2.2 L, no VTEC), manual transmission. Recently it started making a scraping or sucking sound when I go over about 4500 RPMs. This sound correlates with a very severe loss of power.
>
>What is causing this?


Mass Airflow Sensor failure ?

or does that cut power above 2500 rpm, I'm not sure.

Al Moodie.
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