Honda Car Forum

I just had some major work done on my '92 Civic DX Hatchback
(automatic transmission, A/C, NOT a VTEC, the regular engine) at my
local Honda dealership. Car had been running well. Have ~85,000 miles
(I'd don't drive much). Now I have a very frustrating idle problem
(the engine randomly almost dies) that no one can figure out. Here's
the story:

1. In May, the engine began sputtering occasionally at stoplights,
especially when trying to accelerate from a stop. Led to a few close
calls with oncoming traffic, as the engine almost died mid-
intersection.
2. After this happened ~3 times over ~3 days, the engine just died,
wouldn't restart (cranked OK), & had to be towed to Honda dealer.
3. Codes revealed a faulty Idle Air Control Valve (IACV), which was
stuck shut. IACV was therefore replaced.
4. Also had other major maintenance performed (it was time anyway):
90,000 mile service, including Valve Clearance Adjustment, timing
belt, water pump, new plugs & air filter.

Now the trouble really began...

5. Car didn't perform well at highway speeds (hard to quantify, but
engine just seemed louder & less powerful at high speeds, ~80 mph).
ALSO, at idle, in gear, at a stop, idled roughly, and it seems like
the motor is cutting off for a split second. Almost dies, then
recovers. Seems to happen more when it is warmer out (~75-80 oF).
Rarely happens if either the car is in Park/Neutral, or if the A/C is
on, or if you're actually moving.
6. First the dealer's mechanics couldn't observe the idle problem,
then didn't believe it was an issue, then asked if I was sure it
wasn't happening before I brought the car in the first time, etc. They
also said that the IACV had an "adjusting screw" that was improperly
adjusted, and that it was now adj. properly. (Next time, I was told
that the IACV does not have any adj. screw!!) Did NOT fix the idle
problem.
7. Back again to dealer. Service manager is trying his best, and
replaced the PCV valve and its hose. No change in idle problem.
8. Back again. Manager discovered that the valve clearance had been
adj. too loose, and timing was 5 degrees retarded. Fixed the
clearance, rechecked timing, idle speed, etc. Also cleaned out the
throttle body (they said it had some carbon buildup). All this now
seemed at last to improve the high speed driveability somewhat.
Possible improvement in the idle problem (seems less frequent), but
still not gone.
9. Now, the idle dropout happens like this:
a. Car is idling, and fan comes on. This kicks up the idle speed a
bit.
b. Fan shuts off. After ~7 seconds, idle speed drops back down.
c. After ~20-25 seconds more, engine drops out...idle speed for that
split second makes like it is trying to go to zero.
d. Cycle of a, b, c repeats (for as long as you're willing to sit
and wait).

The specific timing of the problem described #9 makes me think it is
unlikely to be plugs, SP wires, rotor, cap, etc. (Wires & cap were
replaced ~2 yrs ago (non-Honda).) Coolant-temperature related? Some
other kind of sensor? What else could it be? A faulty, new IACV? Other
things I've seen mentioned: coolant temp. sensor; Throttle Position
Sensor, coil, igniter, SP-etc..

Sorry to be so long-winded, but figured I'd give you experts all the
info I have.

Desperate for help!! Thanks!!!

david.borhani@alum.mit.edu wrote:
<snip>
get to the point - i'm not paid for this. 3 lines or less - what's the
problem?

On Jun 22, 12:08 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> get to the point - i'm not paid for this. 3 lines or less - what's the problem?

Idle drops out:
a. Car is idling OK, fan comes on, idle speed increases a bit.
b. Fan shuts off. After ~7 seconds, idle speed drops back down.
c. After ~20-25 seconds more, engine drops out...idle speed for a
split second goes to zero.
d. a, b, c repeats endlessly

david.borhani@alum.mit.edu wrote:
> On Jun 22, 12:08 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> get to the point - i'm not paid for this. 3 lines or less - what's the problem?
>
> Idle drops out:
> a. Car is idling OK, fan comes on, idle speed increases a bit.
> b. Fan shuts off. After ~7 seconds, idle speed drops back down.
> c. After ~20-25 seconds more, engine drops out...idle speed for a
> split second goes to zero.
> d. a, b, c repeats endlessly
>
thank you.

1. check the coolant level in the radiator when cold - [never rely on
the expansion bottle level to tell you because if there's an air leak,
the level never changes.]

2. if the above is ok, check the idle control circuit. disconnect the
i.a.c.v. when warm and see what happens to engine revs. if the engine
dies, you need to set the idle correctly. and before you do that, you
need to check everything else is set right like timing, valve lash, etc.
when you've prepared everything else sufficiently, remove the iacv and
check the filter screen is not clogged. carburettor cleaner and a q-tip
work great for that.

3. check for error codes on the computer as well!

a great thing to buy for your honda is the factory service manual from
helminc.com. full diagnostic flowcharts for every system on the vehicle.

david.borhani@alum.mit.edu wrote:
> I just had some major work done on my '92 Civic DX Hatchback
> (automatic transmission, A/C, NOT a VTEC, the regular engine) at my
> local Honda dealership.
<SNIP>
> Sorry to be so long-winded, but figured I'd give you experts all the
> info I have.
>
> Desperate for help!! Thanks!!!

------------------------------------

The dealer sounds like a dope. Fill the reservoir to =MAX= and check if
the rad is full to the top. (this is in your owner's manual). If the
coolant level drops next day, you had AIR in the system. It can screw up
LOTS of things on all Hondas.

Look at the adjustment slot on your upper distributor bolt and see if
it's set near the center, or has somebody cranked it all the way to one
end of the slot? If so, they probably got the Timing belt off by one
tooth and tried to correct by changing the ignition timing.

Report back.

'Curly'

> motsco/Curly, Jim Beam: Check coolant, reservoir
Radiator is full when engine is cold, reservoir ~1/2+ full. Did of
course get coolant flush because of water pump repl. w/ T-belt
service. Will a careful re-flush eliminate possible bubbles?

> motsco/Curly: Check adjustment slot on your upper distributor bolt
See about 3 mm of slot showing past the large washer. Gap is toward
rear of engine, i.e. looks like bolt is toward front end of of range,
but I can't quite tell how far to end of range (no personal
experience). Do you think this is near end of range? Can also see old
marking from washer visible on dist. case at rear of range. So, set
wrong now, and possibly before as well? Should it be ~in the middle?
If so, should I take it back to dealer and ask that they move T-belt
by one tooth in correct direction, then re-do timing, idle adj.?
Anything else?

> Jim Beam: Check IACV when hot. Check codes.
Haven't done the IACV check yet (will try tomorrow). Presumably dealer
saw no other codes other than orig. IACV problem? I don't have code-
checking equip.

Thanks guys

david.borhani@alum.mit.edu wrote:
>> motsco/Curly, Jim Beam: Check coolant, reservoir
> Radiator is full when engine is cold, reservoir ~1/2+ full. Did of
> course get coolant flush because of water pump repl. w/ T-belt
> service. Will a careful re-flush eliminate possible bubbles?

no. the fact that you've recently done the timing belt leads me to
suspect the belt's slipped a tooth. very common for the belt not to be
tensioned right. google this group for procedure or check the book.

>
>> motsco/Curly: Check adjustment slot on your upper distributor bolt
> See about 3 mm of slot showing past the large washer. Gap is toward
> rear of engine, i.e. looks like bolt is toward front end of of range,
> but I can't quite tell how far to end of range (no personal
> experience).

bolt should be about the middle of the slot like curly says. see above.

> Do you think this is near end of range? Can also see old
> marking from washer visible on dist. case at rear of range. So, set
> wrong now, and possibly before as well? Should it be ~in the middle?
> If so, should I take it back to dealer and ask that they move T-belt
> by one tooth in correct direction, then re-do timing, idle adj.?

yes.

> Anything else?
>
>> Jim Beam: Check IACV when hot. Check codes.
> Haven't done the IACV check yet (will try tomorrow). Presumably dealer
> saw no other codes other than orig. IACV problem? I don't have code-
> checking equip.
>
> Thanks guys
>
>

seriously consider finding another dealer to do this work. these guys
don't seem like they know their business.

Thanks very much, will press dealer to fix their mistakes, and then
find a new dealer!

Last thoughts/questions: Is it clear that the mis-set T-belt, and thus
the mis-adj. distributor/timing, is the cause of the idle drop-out? or
is it a contributing factor, along with possible air bubbles in
coolant lines near IACV, or some other cause? I feel a bit like we set
out to drain the swamp but are currently wrestling w/ the alligators!

david.borhani@alum.mit.edu wrote:
> Thanks very much, will press dealer to fix their mistakes, and then
> find a new dealer!
>
> Last thoughts/questions: Is it clear that the mis-set T-belt, and thus
> the mis-adj. distributor/timing, is the cause of the idle drop-out? or
> is it a contributing factor, along with possible air bubbles in
> coolant lines near IACV, or some other cause? I feel a bit like we set
> out to drain the swamp but are currently wrestling w/ the alligators!

------------------------------------

It would be nice if you knew somebody handy enough to slip off the valve
cover and confirm whether the TB is out one tooth. I can't say for sure
how hard it is to check on your engine.
The TB can be 'out' just because of carelesness when installing it, not
necessarily because it's loose. Changing the angle of the distributor is
the 'patch', and should have confirmed to the tech that he did the belt
wrong. :-( As far as I know, the ignition timing should never need to be
changed more than a degree or two over the life of the car, unless
there's some 'tuning' going on.

If you have access to a Haynes or Chilton's, the procedure for checking
the TB alignment will be in there.

Search at www.tegger.com to learn whether it's necessary to bleed any
trapped air from your '92. As was mentioned, later models don't need it
and their (reservoir) coolant level stays rock-steady summer and winter,
hot or cold.

'Curly'

> It would be nice if you knew somebody handy enough to slip off the valve
> cover and confirm whether the TB is out one tooth.

I can take off the valve cover no problem. Looked at the link you
suggested and found this one -- http://timingbelt.soben.com/ -- that
gave pictures from an Acura T-belt replacement. BUT, it's not clear to
me just what one does/looks for to determine whether T-belt is off by
one tooth. Could you please supply a bit more detail? I assume you
take off the valve cover, turn engine (by hand?) until cylinder 1 (the
one next to T-belt?) is at TDC (judged how?), then look at where belt
lines up with some marking on case? Sounds like a quick job if you
know what you're doing/looking for?

Thanks!