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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 21 Apr 2007, 03:18 pm
Grumpy AuContraire
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Default Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff

I was getting ready to spend today overhauling the $200 Honda which has
one bad cylinder which I suspect is a broken ring.

At any rate, I have received mixed opinions on the reuse of head bolts
that evidently were a "one use" only type. Especially perplexing was
the price wanted for new ones... $16 apiece, seven total required.

The consensus that I have gathered appears to be that reuse is OK as
long as the bolts are OK. Two outfits, one a machine shop specializing
in racing and the other, a long time independent Honda specialist both
suggested after looking at the bolts I have, to give reuse a shot.

Still, I canceled today's overhaul party, (thus allowing thousands of
mosquitoes live longer), and may opt to overhaul the FE engine that is
currently disassembled and all the internals, (crank, rods, pistons and
cylinder wall condition), have been given the OK to proceed. I should
be able to reassemble the short block this week and finish it next with
the rebuilt head, new timing belt, seals, etc. I also plan on tossing
in the extra five speed tranny to replace the current four speed unit
and will reseal it as well.

At any rate, any comments?

JT
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 21 Apr 2007, 07:33 pm
Tegger
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff

Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in news:YjuWh.65383
$VU4.13844@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:


>
> At any rate, any comments?
>


Is the head gasket steel sandwiched with teflon, or is it fiber sandwiched
with steel?

And what kind of tightening spec does your manual specify?

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 21 Apr 2007, 09:10 pm
Michael Pardee
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff

"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
news:YjuWh.65383$VU4.13844@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>I was getting ready to spend today overhauling the $200 Honda which has one
>bad cylinder which I suspect is a broken ring.
>
> At any rate, I have received mixed opinions on the reuse of head bolts
> that evidently were a "one use" only type. Especially perplexing was the
> price wanted for new ones... $16 apiece, seven total required.
>
> The consensus that I have gathered appears to be that reuse is OK as long
> as the bolts are OK. Two outfits, one a machine shop specializing in
> racing and the other, a long time independent Honda specialist both
> suggested after looking at the bolts I have, to give reuse a shot.
>
> Still, I canceled today's overhaul party, (thus allowing thousands of
> mosquitoes live longer), and may opt to overhaul the FE engine that is
> currently disassembled and all the internals, (crank, rods, pistons and
> cylinder wall condition), have been given the OK to proceed. I should be
> able to reassemble the short block this week and finish it next with the
> rebuilt head, new timing belt, seals, etc. I also plan on tossing in the
> extra five speed tranny to replace the current four speed unit and will
> reseal it as well.
>
> At any rate, any comments?
>
> JT
>


I've always reused head bolts, mostly because I hadn't heard of tossing them
the first few times I had heads off :-) No problems yet
Mike
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 21 Apr 2007, 09:16 pm
Grumpy AuContraire
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff



Tegger wrote:
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in news:YjuWh.65383
> $VU4.13844@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>
>
>>At any rate, any comments?
>>

>
>
> Is the head gasket steel sandwiched with teflon, or is it fiber sandwiched
> with steel?


??? Appears to be fiber sandwiching steel.



>
> And what kind of tightening spec does your manual specify?
>



25 ft lbs 1st round and 47 2nd round. Doesn't mention a thing about
"one use" bolts.

JT


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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 21 Apr 2007, 09:17 pm
Grumpy AuContraire
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff



Michael Pardee wrote:

> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
> news:YjuWh.65383$VU4.13844@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>>I was getting ready to spend today overhauling the $200 Honda which has one
>>bad cylinder which I suspect is a broken ring.
>>
>>At any rate, I have received mixed opinions on the reuse of head bolts
>>that evidently were a "one use" only type. Especially perplexing was the
>>price wanted for new ones... $16 apiece, seven total required.
>>
>>The consensus that I have gathered appears to be that reuse is OK as long
>>as the bolts are OK. Two outfits, one a machine shop specializing in
>>racing and the other, a long time independent Honda specialist both
>>suggested after looking at the bolts I have, to give reuse a shot.
>>
>>Still, I canceled today's overhaul party, (thus allowing thousands of
>>mosquitoes live longer), and may opt to overhaul the FE engine that is
>>currently disassembled and all the internals, (crank, rods, pistons and
>>cylinder wall condition), have been given the OK to proceed. I should be
>>able to reassemble the short block this week and finish it next with the
>>rebuilt head, new timing belt, seals, etc. I also plan on tossing in the
>>extra five speed tranny to replace the current four speed unit and will
>>reseal it as well.
>>
>>At any rate, any comments?
>>
>>JT
>>

>
>
> I've always reused head bolts, mostly because I hadn't heard of tossing them
> the first few times I had heads off :-) No problems yet
> Mike



I'm tending to agree. Better that the $16 each end up in my pocket.
The guy up the road said if a bolt was bad, I'd know it pretty quick
during assembly.

JT


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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 21 Apr 2007, 10:15 pm
Michael Pardee
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff

"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
news:dBzWh.66110$VU4.53832@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>
>> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
>> news:YjuWh.65383$VU4.13844@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>
>>>I was getting ready to spend today overhauling the $200 Honda which has
>>>one bad cylinder which I suspect is a broken ring.
>>>
>>>At any rate, I have received mixed opinions on the reuse of head bolts
>>>that evidently were a "one use" only type. Especially perplexing was the
>>>price wanted for new ones... $16 apiece, seven total required.
>>>
>>>The consensus that I have gathered appears to be that reuse is OK as long
>>>as the bolts are OK. Two outfits, one a machine shop specializing in
>>>racing and the other, a long time independent Honda specialist both
>>>suggested after looking at the bolts I have, to give reuse a shot.
>>>
>>>Still, I canceled today's overhaul party, (thus allowing thousands of
>>>mosquitoes live longer), and may opt to overhaul the FE engine that is
>>>currently disassembled and all the internals, (crank, rods, pistons and
>>>cylinder wall condition), have been given the OK to proceed. I should be
>>>able to reassemble the short block this week and finish it next with the
>>>rebuilt head, new timing belt, seals, etc. I also plan on tossing in the
>>>extra five speed tranny to replace the current four speed unit and will
>>>reseal it as well.
>>>
>>>At any rate, any comments?
>>>
>>>JT
>>>

>>
>>
>> I've always reused head bolts, mostly because I hadn't heard of tossing
>> them the first few times I had heads off :-) No problems yet Mike

>
>
> I'm tending to agree. Better that the $16 each end up in my pocket. The
> guy up the road said if a bolt was bad, I'd know it pretty quick during
> assembly.
>
> JT
>
>
>

When we look at the bolts and consider they are torqued to only 47 ft-lbs
and protected from the elements, it doesn't seem likely they have been
stressed in the past. I'm thinking it is one of those things that
professionals have to do as part of meeting professional standards but that
we amateurs can risk.

Mike



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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 21 Apr 2007, 10:53 pm
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> I was getting ready to spend today overhauling the $200 Honda which has
> one bad cylinder which I suspect is a broken ring.
>
> At any rate, I have received mixed opinions on the reuse of head bolts
> that evidently were a "one use" only type. Especially perplexing was
> the price wanted for new ones... $16 apiece, seven total required.
>
> The consensus that I have gathered appears to be that reuse is OK as
> long as the bolts are OK. Two outfits, one a machine shop specializing
> in racing and the other, a long time independent Honda specialist both
> suggested after looking at the bolts I have, to give reuse a shot.
>
> Still, I canceled today's overhaul party, (thus allowing thousands of
> mosquitoes live longer), and may opt to overhaul the FE engine that is
> currently disassembled and all the internals, (crank, rods, pistons and
> cylinder wall condition), have been given the OK to proceed. I should
> be able to reassemble the short block this week and finish it next with
> the rebuilt head, new timing belt, seals, etc. I also plan on tossing
> in the extra five speed tranny to replace the current four speed unit
> and will reseal it as well.
>
> At any rate, any comments?
>
> JT


i'm skeptical about civic head bolts being single use. suggest you
check like this - put two bolts end to end and mesh the threads. if
it's apparent that the threads have yielded [elongation], then they're
single use. if not, then you can safely re-use.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 22 Apr 2007, 07:38 am
Grumpy AuContraire
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff



jim beam wrote:
> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>> I was getting ready to spend today overhauling the $200 Honda which
>> has one bad cylinder which I suspect is a broken ring.
>>
>> At any rate, I have received mixed opinions on the reuse of head bolts
>> that evidently were a "one use" only type. Especially perplexing was
>> the price wanted for new ones... $16 apiece, seven total required.
>>
>> The consensus that I have gathered appears to be that reuse is OK as
>> long as the bolts are OK. Two outfits, one a machine shop specializing
>> in racing and the other, a long time independent Honda specialist both
>> suggested after looking at the bolts I have, to give reuse a shot.
>>
>> Still, I canceled today's overhaul party, (thus allowing thousands of
>> mosquitoes live longer), and may opt to overhaul the FE engine that is
>> currently disassembled and all the internals, (crank, rods, pistons
>> and cylinder wall condition), have been given the OK to proceed. I
>> should be able to reassemble the short block this week and finish it
>> next with the rebuilt head, new timing belt, seals, etc. I also plan
>> on tossing in the extra five speed tranny to replace the current four
>> speed unit and will reseal it as well.
>>
>> At any rate, any comments?
>>
>> JT

>
>
> i'm skeptical about civic head bolts being single use. suggest you
> check like this - put two bolts end to end and mesh the threads. if
> it's apparent that the threads have yielded [elongation], then they're
> single use. if not, then you can safely re-use.



I am as well. The reason that I've mentioned it is that they are
"strange" looking in that have roughly an inch and a quarter of thread,
the shank is not smooth buy has a swirling thread-like structure and of
course the head requires a special socket which of course I do not have.

Strangest of all, when I bought the original FE, this engine was in
place minus the head and sat for over ten years this way. Thankfully,
the hood was down and the surface rust that accumulated on the two
center holes, (where the pistons were in nearly their lowest positions),
cleaned right up.

Turns out the pistons are fine, piston to cylinder wall clearance is
well within tolerance, the crankshaft looks like new but it will get new
bearings anyway as will the rods.

I think that I'll be on solid ground here and will re-assemble the lower
end this week.

The more I look at the setup, the more I respect Honda engineering.
It's all quite simple and straight forward.

JT

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 22 Apr 2007, 09:45 am
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>> I was getting ready to spend today overhauling the $200 Honda which
>>> has one bad cylinder which I suspect is a broken ring.
>>>
>>> At any rate, I have received mixed opinions on the reuse of head
>>> bolts that evidently were a "one use" only type. Especially
>>> perplexing was the price wanted for new ones... $16 apiece, seven
>>> total required.
>>>
>>> The consensus that I have gathered appears to be that reuse is OK as
>>> long as the bolts are OK. Two outfits, one a machine shop
>>> specializing in racing and the other, a long time independent Honda
>>> specialist both suggested after looking at the bolts I have, to give
>>> reuse a shot.
>>>
>>> Still, I canceled today's overhaul party, (thus allowing thousands of
>>> mosquitoes live longer), and may opt to overhaul the FE engine that
>>> is currently disassembled and all the internals, (crank, rods,
>>> pistons and cylinder wall condition), have been given the OK to
>>> proceed. I should be able to reassemble the short block this week
>>> and finish it next with the rebuilt head, new timing belt, seals,
>>> etc. I also plan on tossing in the extra five speed tranny to
>>> replace the current four speed unit and will reseal it as well.
>>>
>>> At any rate, any comments?
>>>
>>> JT

>>
>>
>> i'm skeptical about civic head bolts being single use. suggest you
>> check like this - put two bolts end to end and mesh the threads. if
>> it's apparent that the threads have yielded [elongation], then they're
>> single use. if not, then you can safely re-use.

>
>
> I am as well. The reason that I've mentioned it is that they are
> "strange" looking in that have roughly an inch and a quarter of thread,
> the shank is not smooth buy has a swirling thread-like structure


you mean like this?
http://img.eautopartscatalog.com/live/A303064570OES.JPG

afaik, that's a retrofit bolt to be used in the event of gasket leakage
problems. [it's longitudinally slightly more elastic so the head gets
loaded more evenly.]

> and of
> course the head requires a special socket which of course I do not have.
>
> Strangest of all, when I bought the original FE, this engine was in
> place minus the head and sat for over ten years this way. Thankfully,
> the hood was down and the surface rust that accumulated on the two
> center holes, (where the pistons were in nearly their lowest positions),
> cleaned right up.
>
> Turns out the pistons are fine, piston to cylinder wall clearance is
> well within tolerance, the crankshaft looks like new but it will get new
> bearings anyway as will the rods.
>
> I think that I'll be on solid ground here and will re-assemble the lower
> end this week.
>
> The more I look at the setup, the more I respect Honda engineering. It's
> all quite simple and straight forward.


you will need to re-hone the cylinder bores - not excessively, but to
bust the glaze. when you're done, scrub those things for a good long
time with a natural bristle brush, and plenty of soapy water. do it
thoroughly! reason is that tiny particles of honing abrasive embed in
the surface. left there, they abrade the rings and before too long, the
motor's toast again. it's very common for machine shops not to do this
properly and you can see the results in rebuild lives vs. new motors -
60k miles for a diesel rebuild vs 300k on the original for instance.
done right and with appropriate hygiene, there's no reason a rebuild
shouldn't last as long as the original.

that goes for /all/ your cleaning operations!

as soon as you're done scrubbing and washing, spray with wd40 to
displace water so you get no surface rust.

and remove the carbon deposits in the piston grooves if you're not
replacing. carefully! nicked or scratched surfaces reduce your seal.
too much abrasion lets the rings float too much. again, hygiene means
long engine life. can you not get a cheapo set of new pistons from
somewhere? often, these things sit about on a shelf and get sold cheap
after a while. there can't be many people running that motor any more
so i can't imagine demand is strong if someone's sitting on old stock.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 22 Apr 2007, 11:28 am
Grumpy AuContraire
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff



jim beam wrote:
> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was getting ready to spend today overhauling the $200 Honda which
>>>> has one bad cylinder which I suspect is a broken ring.
>>>>
>>>> At any rate, I have received mixed opinions on the reuse of head
>>>> bolts that evidently were a "one use" only type. Especially
>>>> perplexing was the price wanted for new ones... $16 apiece, seven
>>>> total required.
>>>>
>>>> The consensus that I have gathered appears to be that reuse is OK as
>>>> long as the bolts are OK. Two outfits, one a machine shop
>>>> specializing in racing and the other, a long time independent Honda
>>>> specialist both suggested after looking at the bolts I have, to give
>>>> reuse a shot.
>>>>
>>>> Still, I canceled today's overhaul party, (thus allowing thousands
>>>> of mosquitoes live longer), and may opt to overhaul the FE engine
>>>> that is currently disassembled and all the internals, (crank, rods,
>>>> pistons and cylinder wall condition), have been given the OK to
>>>> proceed. I should be able to reassemble the short block this week
>>>> and finish it next with the rebuilt head, new timing belt, seals,
>>>> etc. I also plan on tossing in the extra five speed tranny to
>>>> replace the current four speed unit and will reseal it as well.
>>>>
>>>> At any rate, any comments?
>>>>
>>>> JT
>>>
>>>
>>> i'm skeptical about civic head bolts being single use. suggest you
>>> check like this - put two bolts end to end and mesh the threads. if
>>> it's apparent that the threads have yielded [elongation], then
>>> they're single use. if not, then you can safely re-use.

>>
>>
>> I am as well. The reason that I've mentioned it is that they are
>> "strange" looking in that have roughly an inch and a quarter of
>> thread, the shank is not smooth buy has a swirling thread-like structure

>
> you mean like this?
> http://img.eautopartscatalog.com/live/A303064570OES.JPG
>



Yep, but it is also what is shown in the shop manual.



> afaik, that's a retrofit bolt to be used in the event of gasket leakage
> problems. [it's longitudinally slightly more elastic so the head gets
> loaded more evenly.]
>
>> and of course the head requires a special socket which of course I do
>> not have.
>>
>> Strangest of all, when I bought the original FE, this engine was in
>> place minus the head and sat for over ten years this way. Thankfully,
>> the hood was down and the surface rust that accumulated on the two
>> center holes, (where the pistons were in nearly their lowest
>> positions), cleaned right up.
>>
>> Turns out the pistons are fine, piston to cylinder wall clearance is
>> well within tolerance, the crankshaft looks like new but it will get
>> new bearings anyway as will the rods.
>>
>> I think that I'll be on solid ground here and will re-assemble the
>> lower end this week.
>>
>> The more I look at the setup, the more I respect Honda engineering.
>> It's all quite simple and straight forward.

>
> you will need to re-hone the cylinder bores - not excessively, but to
> bust the glaze. when you're done, scrub those things for a good long
> time with a natural bristle brush, and plenty of soapy water. do it
> thoroughly! reason is that tiny particles of honing abrasive embed in
> the surface. left there, they abrade the rings and before too long, the
> motor's toast again. it's very common for machine shops not to do this
> properly and you can see the results in rebuild lives vs. new motors -
> 60k miles for a diesel rebuild vs 300k on the original for instance.
> done right and with appropriate hygiene, there's no reason a rebuild
> shouldn't last as long as the original.
>
> that goes for /all/ your cleaning operations!
>


Yes, I've done quite a few over the years.



> as soon as you're done scrubbing and washing, spray with wd40 to
> displace water so you get no surface rust.
>
> and remove the carbon deposits in the piston grooves if you're not
> replacing. carefully! nicked or scratched surfaces reduce your seal.
> too much abrasion lets the rings float too much. again, hygiene means
> long engine life. can you not get a cheapo set of new pistons from
> somewhere? often, these things sit about on a shelf and get sold cheap
> after a while. there can't be many people running that motor any more
> so i can't imagine demand is strong if someone's sitting on old stock.



The ring lands have already been cleaned and cylinders honed. Not even
evidence of a ridge even though this engine had 110K on it. I use the
old trick to clean the rings, a broken old ring which is even mentioned
in the shop manual. (And all this time, I just taught that I was too
cheap to buy the tool).

All clearances are within tolerance so it looks like I'm in good shape.

I'm kind of looking forward to this experience. All my previous work
was with domestic V8 engines... Mostly Studebaker. I did redo a Honda
CL 450 once back around 1980 though.

JT






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