Honda Car Forum

On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 18:37:07 -0400, "Mike Hunter"
<mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote:

>Really? Apparently American buyers think GM and Ford products are better
>that Toyota, they buy millions more of their vehicles from them than buyers
>that chose Toyotas LOL
>
>mike

Hey, Mike, maybe you haven't heard but since you were last posting
here Ford is flirting with becoming the #4 automaker. It is pretty
much a foregone conclusion that they will be passed by Toyota next
year if not this year.

GM still outsells Toyota but their market share has been eroding for
the last 30 years. Toyota's share is increasing rapidly as, to a
lesser extent, is Honda's. If recent trends were to continue for the
next four years, the 2010 sales leaders would be Toyota, GM,
Daimler-chrysler, Honda, Ford in that order.



>"Don" <DonAdams@GetSmart.com> wrote in message
>news:S1WIh.25171$S%2.8517@newsfe06.phx...
>> IF American car companies made the best cars and trucks on the market, the
>> foreign car companies wouldn't be so popular in North America.
>>
>> Really simple....
>>
>>
>> "tizak" <tizak_4@yahoo. com> wrote in message
>> news:1173623329.893117.107170@64g2000cwx.googlegro ups.com...
>>> As free traders are we being taken for suckers, with the US and
>>> Canadian government acquiescing with countries actively acting in bad
>>> faith and trading unfairly.
>>>
>

On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 22:53:31 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@AE86.gts>
wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 12:15:49 -0500, Noon-Air wrote:

>> If the "American" companies offered what I wanted, without raping me in
>> the wallet, I would have bought one of those. As it was, the *ONLY* truck
>> that had what I needed was my Tundra..... and it was made in the USA.
>
>Pay careful attention to the next Tundra commercial you hear...
>
>"...ASSEMBLED in America..."

I just looked at a Tundra on display - 80% American Parts Content.
The last 20% is probably the EFI Computer, Radio, and such like. It
would cost several hundred million to build an EFI Computer plant in
the USA, some very expensive production machinery.

There are a lot of "American Cars" out there with 10% American
content or less, made in Mexico at a Maquiladora plant. By that
logic, the Tundra IS an American Truck.

--<< Bruce >>--

On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:44:18 -0700, tizak wrote:

> On Mar 11, 5:46 pm, Hachiroku ãƒ�ãƒ�ãƒ*ク <Tru...@AE86.gts> wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:25:44 -0500, S.Lewis wrote:
>>
>> > "tizak" <tiza...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >news:1173623329.893117.107170@64g2000cwx.googlegr oups.com...
>> >> As free traders are we being taken for suckers, with the US and
>> >> Canadian government acquiescing with countries actively acting in bad
>> >> faith and trading unfairly.
>>
>> >> This is from a newspaper article (
>> >>http://www.canada.com/topics/news/na...d=9be471d3-8dd...
>>
>> > <snip>
>>
>> > It's real simple. Americans want a car that *works* predictably and
>> > reliably for YEARS. Many, if given that choice, would buy AMERICAN
>> > vehicles if they met the criteria.
>>
>> > Sadly, most of the Detroit 3's offerings don't, haven't, and may not
>> > ever.
>>
>> > It's hard to remain loyal to any company that costs you regular trips
>> > to the repair shop and hundreds or thousands of dollars.
>>
>> > Some of us don't have that kind of scratch to throw around simply to
>> > be patriotic (putting everything else aside)....
>>
>> > It's sad. But people will buy what works.
>>
>> And if others in other countries can get what they want right at their
>> own back door, why import junk?
>
> I was looking to the future and reflecting on the past. Right now although
> the US quality has improved it still lags the Japanese manufacturers, so
> there is more work to do, but the quality gap has closed, however, if it's
> the case that Asian car quality is that much more superior what are the
> Asian Manufacturers afraid of? This is just one example, there are other
> industries that are effected in exactly the same way, ie: unfair trading
> behaviour.
>
> They have a huge advantage if they can export with impunity while denying
> the same access to the US manufacturers. Why aren't more people outraged?
>
> I think part of the problem is the fact that the American manufacturers
> build for the North American market while the Asian and Europeans build
> for the world, and on top of that the US manufacturers have ceded large
> parts of the market due to lax and incompetent management, through relying
> on Suv's and trucks, a very complacent approach that only now is coming to
> fruition with massive loss of market share for the US manufacturers as
> both the Suv and truck markets have started to go south.
>
> Also while relying on bulk sales to the car leasing companies look good as
> far a volume is concerned they represent little in profit per car, again a
> complacent approach that is a result and responsibility of US auto makers
> management, I don't think you can blame the unions, as I understand it the
> Japanese manufactures pay the same compensation to their non-unionized
> members as the unionized US car manufacturer's workers.



Couldn't have said it better myself! (or, why didn't I think of that!
But I think you really nailed the situation down.

The only thing I will add is, while quality may be closing, I think the
Japanese are starting to make cars more cheaply so as to increase profits.
My Scion sounds downright tinny! The manufacturing seems to be good, and
the parts good, but I notice more clips and fewer bolts, and the like.

And, I think the Americans have come quite a ways up! I had a customer who
gave me a '92 Grand Voyager and a '94 Chrysler LHS. The Voyager had some
'problems'...but just kept running and running, and the LHS was a NICE
CAR! Had 160,000 when I traded it for the Scion, which I now see as a
mistake. I should have held out for $1,000, or just kept it! It was well
worth keeping. I kept the van because it was easier to work on, and I was
using it a lot, but I sure do miss that LHS...

"Hachiroku ????" <Trueno@AE86.gts> wrote in message
news:%VcJh.5885$vb.3007@trndny04...
> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:44:18 -0700, tizak wrote:
>
>> On Mar 11, 5:46 pm, Hachiroku ???? <Tru...@AE86.gts> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:25:44 -0500, S.Lewis wrote:
>>>
>>> > "tizak" <tiza...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> >news:1173623329.893117.107170@64g2000cwx.googlegr oups.com...
>>> >> As free traders are we being taken for suckers, with the US and
>>> >> Canadian government acquiescing with countries actively acting in bad
>>> >> faith and trading unfairly.
>>>
>>> >> This is from a newspaper article (
>>> >>http://www.canada.com/topics/news/na...d=9be471d3-8dd...
>>>
>>> > <snip>
>>>
>>> > It's real simple. Americans want a car that *works* predictably and
>>> > reliably for YEARS. Many, if given that choice, would buy AMERICAN
>>> > vehicles if they met the criteria.
>>>
>>> > Sadly, most of the Detroit 3's offerings don't, haven't, and may not
>>> > ever.
>>>
>>> > It's hard to remain loyal to any company that costs you regular trips
>>> > to the repair shop and hundreds or thousands of dollars.
>>>
>>> > Some of us don't have that kind of scratch to throw around simply to
>>> > be patriotic (putting everything else aside)....
>>>
>>> > It's sad. But people will buy what works.
>>>
>>> And if others in other countries can get what they want right at their
>>> own back door, why import junk?
>>
>> I was looking to the future and reflecting on the past. Right now
>> although
>> the US quality has improved it still lags the Japanese manufacturers, so
>> there is more work to do, but the quality gap has closed, however, if
>> it's
>> the case that Asian car quality is that much more superior what are the
>> Asian Manufacturers afraid of? This is just one example, there are other
>> industries that are effected in exactly the same way, ie: unfair trading
>> behaviour.
>>
>> They have a huge advantage if they can export with impunity while denying
>> the same access to the US manufacturers. Why aren't more people outraged?
>>
>> I think part of the problem is the fact that the American manufacturers
>> build for the North American market while the Asian and Europeans build
>> for the world, and on top of that the US manufacturers have ceded large
>> parts of the market due to lax and incompetent management, through
>> relying
>> on Suv's and trucks, a very complacent approach that only now is coming
>> to
>> fruition with massive loss of market share for the US manufacturers as
>> both the Suv and truck markets have started to go south.
>>
>> Also while relying on bulk sales to the car leasing companies look good
>> as
>> far a volume is concerned they represent little in profit per car, again
>> a
>> complacent approach that is a result and responsibility of US auto makers
>> management, I don't think you can blame the unions, as I understand it
>> the
>> Japanese manufactures pay the same compensation to their non-unionized
>> members as the unionized US car manufacturer's workers.
>
>
>
> Couldn't have said it better myself! (or, why didn't I think of that!
> But I think you really nailed the situation down.
>
> The only thing I will add is, while quality may be closing, I think the
> Japanese are starting to make cars more cheaply so as to increase profits.
> My Scion sounds downright tinny! The manufacturing seems to be good, and
> the parts good, but I notice more clips and fewer bolts, and the like.
>
> And, I think the Americans have come quite a ways up! I had a customer who
> gave me a '92 Grand Voyager and a '94 Chrysler LHS. The Voyager had some
> 'problems'...but just kept running and running, and the LHS was a NICE
> CAR! Had 160,000 when I traded it for the Scion, which I now see as a
> mistake. I should have held out for $1,000, or just kept it! It was well
> worth keeping. I kept the van because it was easier to work on, and I was
> using it a lot, but I sure do miss that LHS...


I think that car quality is a moving target, as the Big 2.5 automaker's
quality inproves, so will the imports, I hope.
Playing catch up like the Big 2.5 are trying to do is an uphill battle.





>

On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 18:37:07 -0400, "Mike Hunter"
<mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote:

>Really? Apparently American buyers think GM and Ford products are better
>that Toyota, they buy millions more of their vehicles from them than buyers
>that chose Toyotas LOL
>
Just a random question. I wonder how the Detroit 3 would be doing in
the domestic market if you took rental cars out of the mix? I remember
back when the Taurus was supposedly the top selling model in the US,
It turned out to be because one of the rental companies bought them by
the boatload. Without those sales, the Honda Accord would have been
the top seller.


Elliot Richmond
Itinerant astronomy teacher

"Elliot Richmond" <xmrichmond@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote in message
news:1usav2dpsjpq4t63no5gstbc48h6qgensk@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 18:37:07 -0400, "Mike Hunter"
> <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote:
>
>>Really? Apparently American buyers think GM and Ford products are better
>>that Toyota, they buy millions more of their vehicles from them than
>>buyers
>>that chose Toyotas LOL
>>
> Just a random question. I wonder how the Detroit 3 would be doing in
> the domestic market if you took rental cars out of the mix? I remember
> back when the Taurus was supposedly the top selling model in the US,
> It turned out to be because one of the rental companies bought them by
> the boatload. Without those sales, the Honda Accord would have been
> the top seller.

Actually, a lot of people really like the Taurus. They bought the used ones
with like 15k or 20k mi on them cheap.

If you want to see how the Michigan 3 would do without rental sales, look at
how they are doing now. They are decreasing their sales to rental companies.

Ford is expected to lose it place as #2 this year in the US market, and
Toyota's car sales are nearly that of GM's.

Jeff

> Elliot Richmond
> Itinerant astronomy teacher

On Mar 12, 6:51Â*am, Hachiroku ãƒ�ãƒ�ãƒ*ク <Tru...@AE86.gts> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:44:18 -0700, tizak wrote:
> > On Mar 11, 5:46 pm, Hachiroku ãƒ�ãƒ�ãƒ*ク <Tru....@AE86.gts> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:25:44 -0500, S.Lewis wrote:
>
> >> > "tizak" <tiza...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:1173623329.893117.107170@64g2000cwx.googlegr oups.com...
> >> >> As free traders are we being taken for suckers, with the US and
> >> >> Canadian government acquiescing with countries actively acting in bad
> >> >> faith and trading unfairly.
>
> >> >> This is from a newspaper article (
> >> >>http://www.canada.com/topics/news/na...d=9be471d3-8dd...
>
> >> > <snip>
>
> >> > It's real simple. Americans want a car that *works* predictably and
> >> > reliably for YEARS. Many, if given that choice, would buy AMERICAN
> >> > vehicles if they met the criteria.
>
> >> > Sadly, most of the Detroit 3's offerings don't, haven't, and may not
> >> > ever.
>
> >> > It's hard to remain loyal to any company that costs you regular trips
> >> > to the repair shop and hundreds or thousands of dollars.
>
> >> > Some of us don't have that kind of scratch to throw around simply to
> >> > be patriotic (putting everything else aside)....
>
> >> > It's sad. But people will buy what works.
>
> >> And if others in other countries can get what they want right at their
> >> own back door, why import junk?
>
> > I was looking to the future and reflecting on the past. Right now although
> > the US quality has improved it still lags the Japanese manufacturers, so
> > there is more work to do, but the quality gap has closed, however, if it's
> > the case that Asian car quality is that much more superior what are the
> > Asian Manufacturers afraid of? This is just one example, there are other
> > industries that are effected in exactly the same way, ie: unfair trading
> > behaviour.
>
> > They have a huge advantage if they can export with impunity while denying
> > the same access to the US manufacturers. Why aren't more people outraged?
>
> > I think part of the problem is the fact that the American manufacturers
> > build for the North American market while the Asian and Europeans build
> > for the world, and on top of that the US manufacturers have ceded large
> > parts of the market due to lax and incompetent management, through relying
> > on Suv's and trucks, a very complacent approach that only now is comingto
> > fruition with massive loss of market share for the US manufacturers as
> > both the Suv and truck markets have started to go south.
>
> > Also while relying on bulk sales to the car leasing companies look goodas
> > far a volume is concerned they represent little in profit per car, again a
> > complacent approach that is a result and responsibility of US auto makers
> > management, I don't think you can blame the unions, as I understand it the
> > Japanese manufactures pay the same compensation to their non-unionized
> > members as the unionized US car manufacturer's workers.
>
> Couldn't have said it better myself! (or, why didn't I think of that! Â*
> But I think you really nailed the situation down.
>
> The only thing I will add is, while quality may be closing, I think the
> Japanese are starting to make cars more cheaply so as to increase profits.
> My Scion sounds downright tinny! The manufacturing seems to be good, and
> the parts good, but I notice more clips and fewer bolts, and the like.
>
> And, I think the Americans have come quite a ways up! I had a customer who
> gave me a '92 Grand Voyager and a '94 Chrysler LHS. The Voyager had some
> 'problems'...but just kept running and running, and the LHS was a NICE
> CAR! Had 160,000 when I traded it for the Scion, which I now see as a
> mistake. I should have held out for $1,000, or just kept it! It was well
> worth keeping. I kept the van because it was easier to work on, and I was
> using it a lot, but I sure do miss that LHS...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



If only Detroit's products had a 150,000-mile bumper-to-bumper
warranty... then I might actually consider an American car again!

M

tizak wrote:


>
> I was looking to the future and reflecting on the past. Right now
> although the US quality has improved it still lags the Japanese
> manufacturers, so there is more work to do, but the quality gap has
> closed, however, if it's the case that Asian car quality is that much
> more superior what are the Asian Manufacturers afraid of? This is just
> one example, there are other industries that are effected in exactly
> the same way, ie: unfair trading behaviour.
>
> They have a huge advantage if they can export with impunity while
> denying the same access to the US manufacturers. Why aren't more
> people outraged?
>
> I think part of the problem is the fact that the American
> manufacturers build for the North American market while the Asian and
> Europeans build for the world, and on top of that the US manufacturers
> have ceded large parts of the market due to lax and incompetent
> management, through relying on Suv's and trucks, a very complacent
> approach that only now is coming to fruition with massive loss of
> market share for the US manufacturers as both the Suv and truck
> markets have started to go south.
>
> Also while relying on bulk sales to the car leasing companies look
> good as far a volume is concerned they represent little in profit per
> car, again a complacent approach that is a result and responsibility
> of US auto makers management, I don't think you can blame the unions,
> as I understand it the Japanese manufactures pay the same compensation
> to their non-unionized members as the unionized US car manufacturer's
> workers.
>


<giggle>

I've been hearing this argument for the past twenty-five years. Face
it, US industry does not have the flex and forward looking process to
accomplish it now nor did it have it then...

JT

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:54:49 -0700, mrdarrett wrote:

> On Mar 12, 6:51Â*am, Hachiroku ãƒ�ãƒ�ãƒ*ク <Tru...@AE86.gts> wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:44:18 -0700, tizak wrote:
>> > On Mar 11, 5:46 pm, Hachiroku ãƒ�ãƒ�ãƒ*ク <Tru...@AE86.gts> wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:25:44 -0500, S.Lewis wrote:
>>
>> >> > "tizak" <tiza...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> >news:1173623329.893117.107170@64g2000cwx.googlegr oups.com...
>> >> >> As free traders are we being taken for suckers, with the US and
>> >> >> Canadian government acquiescing with countries actively acting in
>> >> >> bad faith and trading unfairly.
>>
>> >> >> This is from a newspaper article (
>> >> >>http://www.canada.com/topics/news/na...d=9be471d3-8dd...
>>
>> >> > <snip>
>>
>> >> > It's real simple. Americans want a car that *works* predictably and
>> >> > reliably for YEARS. Many, if given that choice, would buy AMERICAN
>> >> > vehicles if they met the criteria.
>>
>> >> > Sadly, most of the Detroit 3's offerings don't, haven't, and may
>> >> > not ever.
>>
>> >> > It's hard to remain loyal to any company that costs you regular
>> >> > trips to the repair shop and hundreds or thousands of dollars.
>>
>> >> > Some of us don't have that kind of scratch to throw around simply
>> >> > to be patriotic (putting everything else aside)....
>>
>> >> > It's sad. But people will buy what works.
>>
>> >> And if others in other countries can get what they want right at
>> >> their own back door, why import junk?
>>
>> > I was looking to the future and reflecting on the past. Right now
>> > although the US quality has improved it still lags the Japanese
>> > manufacturers, so there is more work to do, but the quality gap has
>> > closed, however, if it's the case that Asian car quality is that much
>> > more superior what are the Asian Manufacturers afraid of? This is just
>> > one example, there are other industries that are effected in exactly
>> > the same way, ie: unfair trading behaviour.
>>
>> > They have a huge advantage if they can export with impunity while
>> > denying the same access to the US manufacturers. Why aren't more
>> > people outraged?
>>
>> > I think part of the problem is the fact that the American
>> > manufacturers build for the North American market while the Asian and
>> > Europeans build for the world, and on top of that the US manufacturers
>> > have ceded large parts of the market due to lax and incompetent
>> > management, through relying on Suv's and trucks, a very complacent
>> > approach that only now is coming to fruition with massive loss of
>> > market share for the US manufacturers as both the Suv and truck
>> > markets have started to go south.
>>
>> > Also while relying on bulk sales to the car leasing companies look
>> > good as far a volume is concerned they represent little in profit per
>> > car, again a complacent approach that is a result and responsibility
>> > of US auto makers management, I don't think you can blame the unions,
>> > as I understand it the Japanese manufactures pay the same compensation
>> > to their non-unionized members as the unionized US car manufacturer's
>> > workers.
>>
>> Couldn't have said it better myself! (or, why didn't I think of that!
>> Â* But I think you really nailed the situation down.
>>
>> The only thing I will add is, while quality may be closing, I think the
>> Japanese are starting to make cars more cheaply so as to increase
>> profits. My Scion sounds downright tinny! The manufacturing seems to be
>> good, and the parts good, but I notice more clips and fewer bolts, and
>> the like.
>>
>> And, I think the Americans have come quite a ways up! I had a customer
>> who gave me a '92 Grand Voyager and a '94 Chrysler LHS. The Voyager had
>> some 'problems'...but just kept running and running, and the LHS was a
>> NICE CAR! Had 160,000 when I traded it for the Scion, which I now see as
>> a mistake. I should have held out for $1,000, or just kept it! It was
>> well worth keeping. I kept the van because it was easier to work on, and
>> I was using it a lot, but I sure do miss that LHS...- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
>
> If only Detroit's products had a 150,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warranty...
> then I might actually consider an American car again!
>
> M


My LHS was sure a good car! I really wish I hadn't given it up for a
measly $600...

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:12:07 -0700, JoeBillyBob wrote:

>
> "Hachiroku ????" <Trueno@AE86.gts> wrote in message
> news:%VcJh.5885$vb.3007@trndny04...
>> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:44:18 -0700, tizak wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 11, 5:46 pm, Hachiroku ???? <Tru...@AE86.gts> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:25:44 -0500, S.Lewis wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > "tizak" <tiza...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> >news:1173623329.893117.107170@64g2000cwx.googlegr oups.com...
>>>> >> As free traders are we being taken for suckers, with the US and
>>>> >> Canadian government acquiescing with countries actively acting in
>>>> >> bad faith and trading unfairly.
>>>>
>>>> >> This is from a newspaper article (
>>>> >>http://www.canada.com/topics/news/na...d=9be471d3-8dd...
>>>>
>>>> > <snip>
>>>>
>>>> > It's real simple. Americans want a car that *works* predictably and
>>>> > reliably for YEARS. Many, if given that choice, would buy AMERICAN
>>>> > vehicles if they met the criteria.
>>>>
>>>> > Sadly, most of the Detroit 3's offerings don't, haven't, and may not
>>>> > ever.
>>>>
>>>> > It's hard to remain loyal to any company that costs you regular
>>>> > trips to the repair shop and hundreds or thousands of dollars.
>>>>
>>>> > Some of us don't have that kind of scratch to throw around simply to
>>>> > be patriotic (putting everything else aside)....
>>>>
>>>> > It's sad. But people will buy what works.
>>>>
>>>> And if others in other countries can get what they want right at their
>>>> own back door, why import junk?
>>>
>>> I was looking to the future and reflecting on the past. Right now
>>> although
>>> the US quality has improved it still lags the Japanese manufacturers,
>>> so there is more work to do, but the quality gap has closed, however,
>>> if it's
>>> the case that Asian car quality is that much more superior what are the
>>> Asian Manufacturers afraid of? This is just one example, there are
>>> other industries that are effected in exactly the same way, ie: unfair
>>> trading behaviour.
>>>
>>> They have a huge advantage if they can export with impunity while
>>> denying the same access to the US manufacturers. Why aren't more people
>>> outraged?
>>>
>>> I think part of the problem is the fact that the American manufacturers
>>> build for the North American market while the Asian and Europeans build
>>> for the world, and on top of that the US manufacturers have ceded large
>>> parts of the market due to lax and incompetent management, through
>>> relying
>>> on Suv's and trucks, a very complacent approach that only now is coming
>>> to
>>> fruition with massive loss of market share for the US manufacturers as
>>> both the Suv and truck markets have started to go south.
>>>
>>> Also while relying on bulk sales to the car leasing companies look good
>>> as
>>> far a volume is concerned they represent little in profit per car,
>>> again a
>>> complacent approach that is a result and responsibility of US auto
>>> makers management, I don't think you can blame the unions, as I
>>> understand it the
>>> Japanese manufactures pay the same compensation to their non-unionized
>>> members as the unionized US car manufacturer's workers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Couldn't have said it better myself! (or, why didn't I think of that!
>> But I think you really nailed the situation down.
>>
>> The only thing I will add is, while quality may be closing, I think the
>> Japanese are starting to make cars more cheaply so as to increase
>> profits. My Scion sounds downright tinny! The manufacturing seems to be
>> good, and the parts good, but I notice more clips and fewer bolts, and
>> the like.
>>
>> And, I think the Americans have come quite a ways up! I had a customer
>> who gave me a '92 Grand Voyager and a '94 Chrysler LHS. The Voyager had
>> some 'problems'...but just kept running and running, and the LHS was a
>> NICE CAR! Had 160,000 when I traded it for the Scion, which I now see as
>> a mistake. I should have held out for $1,000, or just kept it! It was
>> well worth keeping. I kept the van because it was easier to work on, and
>> I was using it a lot, but I sure do miss that LHS...
>
>
> I think that car quality is a moving target, as the Big 2.5 automaker's
> quality inproves, so will the imports, I hope. Playing catch up like the
> Big 2.5 are trying to do is an uphill battle.

I started buying cars in the 70's, and after my Mom's first Toyota, a '72
Corona, I was sold. I was going to buy a '73 Celica, but it had been hit,
so I went with a '74 Corolla 1200 (HA! It was so inexpensive, I was a
junior in High School with a Brand-New car!!!)

Never looked back...