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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05 Mar 2007, 09:24 am
Greg
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Default Crankshaft oil seal

I will be doing a timing belt change on my 2000 Civic Si in a few
months. I've got what I think is a complete parts list for the job
(see below), but I'm not 100% sure if I have the right part for the
crankshaft oil seal. I read somewhere that the oil seal under the "OIL
PUMP-OIL STRAINER (2)" is the same as the front crankshaft oil seal.
Is this right? Here is my part list and the item in question:

14400-P2T-004 BELT (124RU26 D-130)
31110-P2T-004 BELT, ALTERNATOR
56992-P2T-003 BELT, P.S. PUMP
19200-P72-013 WATER PUMP
19301-P08-316 THERMOSTAT ASSY.
91213-PR3-004 OIL SEAL (29X43X8) (camshaft x 2)
91212-PR3-003 OIL SEAL (38X50X7.4) <--- crankshaft oil seal??
14510-P30-003 TENSIONER
14516-P2T-000 SPRING
12341-PR3-000 GASKET, HEAD COVER

I know there has been discussions before about whether or not to
replace to replace the oil seals during timing belt service. I decided
to replace mine since it has taken me 7 years to put 65K on the dial.
I may not be back in that area of the engine for another 7 years.

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 05 Mar 2007, 09:17 pm
Speedy Pete
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Default Re: Crankshaft oil seal

The front crank seal is just under the timing belt gear. Its a good idea
to replace it since you have to do ALL the disassembly if you have to do
it later. I would leave the cam seals out of your list unless they are
leaking. They arent a big deal to replace if they do start leaking later.

Happy wrenching!

-SP

Greg wrote:
> I will be doing a timing belt change on my 2000 Civic Si in a few
> months. I've got what I think is a complete parts list for the job
> (see below), but I'm not 100% sure if I have the right part for the
> crankshaft oil seal. I read somewhere that the oil seal under the "OIL
> PUMP-OIL STRAINER (2)" is the same as the front crankshaft oil seal.
> Is this right? Here is my part list and the item in question:
>
> 14400-P2T-004 BELT (124RU26 D-130)
> 31110-P2T-004 BELT, ALTERNATOR
> 56992-P2T-003 BELT, P.S. PUMP
> 19200-P72-013 WATER PUMP
> 19301-P08-316 THERMOSTAT ASSY.
> 91213-PR3-004 OIL SEAL (29X43X8) (camshaft x 2)
> 91212-PR3-003 OIL SEAL (38X50X7.4) <--- crankshaft oil seal??
> 14510-P30-003 TENSIONER
> 14516-P2T-000 SPRING
> 12341-PR3-000 GASKET, HEAD COVER
>
> I know there has been discussions before about whether or not to
> replace to replace the oil seals during timing belt service. I decided
> to replace mine since it has taken me 7 years to put 65K on the dial.
> I may not be back in that area of the engine for another 7 years.
>

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08 Mar 2007, 04:14 am
Eric
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Default Re: Crankshaft oil seal



Greg wrote:
>
> I will be doing a timing belt change on my 2000 Civic Si in a few
> months. I've got what I think is a complete parts list for the job
> (see below), but I'm not 100% sure if I have the right part for the
> crankshaft oil seal. I read somewhere that the oil seal under the "OIL
> PUMP-OIL STRAINER (2)" is the same as the front crankshaft oil seal.
> Is this right? Here is my part list and the item in question:
>
> 14400-P2T-004 BELT (124RU26 D-130)
> 31110-P2T-004 BELT, ALTERNATOR
> 56992-P2T-003 BELT, P.S. PUMP
> 19200-P72-013 WATER PUMP
> 19301-P08-316 THERMOSTAT ASSY.
> 91213-PR3-004 OIL SEAL (29X43X8) (camshaft x 2)
> 91212-PR3-003 OIL SEAL (38X50X7.4) <--- crankshaft oil seal??
> 14510-P30-003 TENSIONER
> 14516-P2T-000 SPRING
> 12341-PR3-000 GASKET, HEAD COVER
>
> I know there has been discussions before about whether or not to
> replace to replace the oil seals during timing belt service. I decided
> to replace mine since it has taken me 7 years to put 65K on the dial.
> I may not be back in that area of the engine for another 7 years.


My recommendation would be to replace all of the oil seals. It's the
equivalent of buying an insurance policy for your new timing belt. If oil
gets on the new belt, it can weaken it and cause it to fail prematurely.
The key is getting the seals installed correctly. The factory seal drivers
work great but they're a bit expensive. For an alternative, check out the
info in one of my prior posts. http://tinyurl.com/2gjj9n. The washers I
bought were called 'machine washers' by the hardware store. They worked
pretty good. Whatever you do, just don't tap on the seal directly with a
tool in order to drive it into the bore. More often than not, this will
wind up damaging the seal. Put the large washer up against the seal, then
you can tap on the washer to drive the seal in the last little bit to square
it up with the seal bore.

By the way, I would add upper spark plug tube seals to your parts list.
These should be part # 12342-PG6-000 and you'll need 4 of them. They tend
to get compressed and the rubber hardens up over time. This can cause oil
leaks into the spark plug tubes which can then cause running problems.

Eric
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08 Mar 2007, 08:16 am
jim beam
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Default Re: Crankshaft oil seal

Eric wrote:
>
> Greg wrote:
>> I will be doing a timing belt change on my 2000 Civic Si in a few
>> months. I've got what I think is a complete parts list for the job
>> (see below), but I'm not 100% sure if I have the right part for the
>> crankshaft oil seal. I read somewhere that the oil seal under the "OIL
>> PUMP-OIL STRAINER (2)" is the same as the front crankshaft oil seal.
>> Is this right? Here is my part list and the item in question:
>>
>> 14400-P2T-004 BELT (124RU26 D-130)
>> 31110-P2T-004 BELT, ALTERNATOR
>> 56992-P2T-003 BELT, P.S. PUMP
>> 19200-P72-013 WATER PUMP
>> 19301-P08-316 THERMOSTAT ASSY.
>> 91213-PR3-004 OIL SEAL (29X43X8) (camshaft x 2)
>> 91212-PR3-003 OIL SEAL (38X50X7.4) <--- crankshaft oil seal??
>> 14510-P30-003 TENSIONER
>> 14516-P2T-000 SPRING
>> 12341-PR3-000 GASKET, HEAD COVER
>>
>> I know there has been discussions before about whether or not to
>> replace to replace the oil seals during timing belt service. I decided
>> to replace mine since it has taken me 7 years to put 65K on the dial.
>> I may not be back in that area of the engine for another 7 years.

>
> My recommendation would be to replace all of the oil seals. It's the
> equivalent of buying an insurance policy for your new timing belt. If oil
> gets on the new belt, it can weaken it and cause it to fail prematurely.
> The key is getting the seals installed correctly. The factory seal drivers
> work great but they're a bit expensive. For an alternative, check out the
> info in one of my prior posts. http://tinyurl.com/2gjj9n. The washers I
> bought were called 'machine washers' by the hardware store. They worked
> pretty good. Whatever you do, just don't tap on the seal directly with a
> tool in order to drive it into the bore. More often than not, this will
> wind up damaging the seal. Put the large washer up against the seal, then
> you can tap on the washer to drive the seal in the last little bit to square
> it up with the seal bore.
>
> By the way, I would add upper spark plug tube seals to your parts list.
> These should be part # 12342-PG6-000 and you'll need 4 of them. They tend
> to get compressed and the rubber hardens up over time. This can cause oil
> leaks into the spark plug tubes which can then cause running problems.
>
> Eric


this dogma is repeated again and again by people that are just not
looking at this situation analytically - there are two factors that are
repeatedly overlooked.

1. all oil seals will show a little wet. if they don't, there's no oil
in the motor and you have a big problem! the seal lip needs a little
wet to run properly. it's not only harmless but essential to operation.

2. unless you strip the motor, it's hard [and unusual] to remove a seal
without damaging the seal running surface. if that gets scratched, any
new seal is going to have a hard time sealing and won't last.

bottom line - honda seals are very high quality and they will last 300k+
with no attention. the only proviso is that good quality oil is used.
some are crap and have no seal conditioners. my 89 civic leaked like a
drain when i first got it at 105k. i subsequently used a quality oil
and discovered that it had stopped leaking. now it's at 157k and it's
completely leak free. don't believe that? my recently acquired crx was
the same, and now, two months into decent oil quality, it's stopped
leaking. there's no way i'd change the seals on these two motors. my
old crx had 305k on original seals, an that didn't leak at all. think
here people. don't just slavishy follow bad habits born of mechanics
having to work on detroit garbage.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08 Mar 2007, 01:21 pm
Greg
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Crankshaft oil seal

Thanks for your messages. The car has been getting Mobil 1 for most of
its life and has regular changes, so I'm thinking the seals are
probably all in good shape, especially since I only have about 65K
miles on the car. The parts are relatively cheap, though, so maybe I
should just have them on hand in case oil is really leaking out (as
opposed to just "wet").

Speaking of mileage, I called a local dealer and also a trusted import
shop (the price difference is amazing!), and the import shop said not
to replace it until 105K. The dealer said the ones they take off are
usually in good shape, and that I could go another year or two. So now
I'm back at square one: the service manual says 7 years (84 months) or
105K. I have 7 years but only 65K, and I know I won't get to 105K
until another 4 years. Should I wait? I understand I'm in deep doo-doo
if the belt breaks, but I'm suspecting the service manual is probably
conservative. What would you all do?

The other factor is that I will be DIY with a friend of mine who has a
garage lift, experience, etc., so I'd be lying if a part of me didn't
want to do this procedure early anyway. But if I know for sure I could
wait another year or two it would be tempting to hold off. Either way,
I just want to do the right thing for my car since I hope to keep it
long enough for my son to learn to drive it, which is about 13 years
from now!

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 09 Mar 2007, 12:56 am
Joe LaVigne
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Default Re: Crankshaft oil seal

On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:21:47 -0800, Greg wrote:

> Speaking of mileage, I called a local dealer and also a trusted import
> shop (the price difference is amazing!), and the import shop said not
> to replace it until 105K. The dealer said the ones they take off are
> usually in good shape, and that I could go another year or two. So now
> I'm back at square one: the service manual says 7 years (84 months) or
> 105K. I have 7 years but only 65K, and I know I won't get to 105K
> until another 4 years. Should I wait? I understand I'm in deep doo-doo
> if the belt breaks, but I'm suspecting the service manual is probably
> conservative. What would you all do?


Personally, I would do it now.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 09 Mar 2007, 11:14 am
John Horner
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Crankshaft oil seal

Greg wrote:
> Thanks for your messages. The car has been getting Mobil 1 for most of
> its life and has regular changes, so I'm thinking the seals are
> probably all in good shape, especially since I only have about 65K
> miles on the car. The parts are relatively cheap, though, so maybe I
> should just have them on hand in case oil is really leaking out (as
> opposed to just "wet").
>
> Speaking of mileage, I called a local dealer and also a trusted import
> shop (the price difference is amazing!), and the import shop said not
> to replace it until 105K. The dealer said the ones they take off are
> usually in good shape, and that I could go another year or two. So now
> I'm back at square one: the service manual says 7 years (84 months) or
> 105K. I have 7 years but only 65K, and I know I won't get to 105K
> until another 4 years. Should I wait? I understand I'm in deep doo-doo
> if the belt breaks, but I'm suspecting the service manual is probably
> conservative. What would you all do?
>


What kind of environment does the car spend it's time in? Mild
climates with neither extreme heat nor cold are much easier on the
rubber parts than are climates with extreme heat and/or cold. Maine
winters, Arizona summers ... these things are hard on a car. San Jose,
California area weather with the car garaged at night ... very easy on
the vehicle.

In any case, I wouldn't change the seals at your stage.

John
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 14 Mar 2007, 04:14 am
Eric
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Default Re: Crankshaft oil seal

jim beam wrote:
>
> 2. unless you strip the motor, it's hard [and unusual] to remove a seal
> without damaging the seal running surface. if that gets scratched, any
> new seal is going to have a hard time sealing and won't last.


If you can't get the seal out without scratching its bore, then you should
definitely leave it alone. However, replacing the seals was standard
practice at the independent Honda shop I worked at. It's fairly easy to get
the old seals out without any problems using a small straight bladed screw
driver. Indeed, I along with the other techs in the shop did it all the
time and never had any problems.

> don't just slavishy follow bad habits born of mechanics
> having to work on detroit garbage.


Please refrain from applying prejudicial stereotypes where they do not
belong. I have never worked on "detroit garbage" and hopefully never will
nor do I consider my 10 years of professional experience to have been
plagued by bad habits. Moreover, a shop tech cannot control the type of oil
someone puts in their engine at some point in the future. Replacing the
seals is therefore a good practice to ensure that the timing belt stays dry
avoiding costly comebacks. In addition, in replacing the timing belt the
gears are typically removed and cleaned which leaves the seals exposed. The
cost of the seals and the small amount of labor is trivial compared to the
cost of a prematurely failed timing belt due to oil contamination.

Eric
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 14 Mar 2007, 09:41 pm
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Crankshaft oil seal

Eric wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> 2. unless you strip the motor, it's hard [and unusual] to remove a seal
>> without damaging the seal running surface. if that gets scratched, any
>> new seal is going to have a hard time sealing and won't last.

>
> If you can't get the seal out without scratching its bore, then you should
> definitely leave it alone.


not the bore, the shaft that the seal lip runs against.

> However, replacing the seals was standard
> practice at the independent Honda shop I worked at.


that's my point. "standard practice" why? has anyone done any testing?
or is "standard practice" slavishly following the other "standard
practice" of every other shop that inherited its ideas from detroit?

> It's fairly easy to get
> the old seals out without any problems using a small straight bladed screw
> driver. Indeed, I along with the other techs in the shop did it all the
> time and never had any problems.


how do you know? did you monitor vehicles after the work was done?
were comparisons done with vehicles where original seals were left in?

>
>> don't just slavishy follow bad habits born of mechanics
>> having to work on detroit garbage.

>
> Please refrain from applying prejudicial stereotypes where they do not
> belong. I have never worked on "detroit garbage" and hopefully never will
> nor do I consider my 10 years of professional experience to have been
> plagued by bad habits.


just doing something because it's "standard practice" and not analyzing
the problem is a bad habit.

> Moreover, a shop tech cannot control the type of oil
> someone puts in their engine at some point in the future.


that's true, but you can advise a client on what works best.

> Replacing the
> seals is therefore a good practice to ensure that the timing belt stays dry
> avoiding costly comebacks.


so really, "standard practice" is born of fear of comebacks, not
reliability analysis. and why not - the customer pays.

> In addition, in replacing the timing belt the
> gears are typically removed and cleaned which leaves the seals exposed. The
> cost of the seals and the small amount of labor is trivial compared to the
> cost of a prematurely failed timing belt due to oil contamination.


have you ever seen a timing belt contaminated by oil? i've seen engines
piss-wet with oil, but not a drop on the belt due to the pulley design.

bottom line eric, you're probably a sincere and conscientious guy that's
doing what he believes best based on what he was taught. but things we
get taught and which we then replicate, are not always best, simply
repetition of what we were taught.

another example is skimming heads when doing head gaskets. if the
head's not warped or pitted, it's inadvisable because it affects [albeit
to a small extent] the valve timing, compression ratio and surface
finish. it can also introduce grit to the motor thereby reducing life
significantly and leave the head scored making the gasket leak again.
but it's almost /always/ done. why?

1. it's quicker than cleaning the head instead.
2. fear of comebacks - "covering the bases".
3. it's "standard practice".

returning to seal replacement, the most vulnerable seal in the whole
motor, [apart from the distributor which for some reason always leaks
like crazy] is the output seal. but you can't get at that without
taking out the transmission. so it /never/ gets changed - not with the
timing belt anyway and hardly ever with a clutch. people only change
the other seals they can easily get at. and the customer pays. but
logically, if you're going to change seals, change them /all/.
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