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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 22 Feb 2007, 08:22 am
Jonathan
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Posts: n/a
Default 1990 Prelude Si ALB Again

Engine: B21A1
Transmission: 5-speed
Mods: NONE - all stock

Thanks to everyone who responded to my initial question about my car. I
changed out the PCV valve, (Only $3.51 after tax) and unfortunately this
has done nothing to lessen the vast amounts of oil that disappear from
my car. Again, I don't think I have a leak, because there are never any
oil spots under my car when I park it for the night and come back the
next morning. The new record for oil consumption: 2 quarts in 3 days!!
Granted, in those 3 days I drove over 300 miles, but that's only 150
miles per quart! It doesn't stumble or falter at all, there is no blue
smoke at any RPM level (I've checked for this time and time again) and
the other day I clocked my 0-60 time at roughly 7.5 seconds. So, as you
can see, my car has plenty of power. So I throw my question again to
the wealth of Honda knowledge in this newsgroup:

Where is my oil going?

A guy I work with used to work for a Honda performance shop, and he said
that it could be possible that my compression rings are fine, but the
oil rings are shot. Is this possible? Could it still be the valves?
Is it possible for oil to leak only while the car is running and not
leak after it's shut off? I hope someone can throw me a clue because
I'm drowning here...in cases of oil... ;-)

Thanks again! :-)

Jonathan
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 22 Feb 2007, 01:54 pm
N.E.Ohio Bob
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1990 Prelude Si ALB Again

Jonathan wrote:
> Engine: B21A1
> Transmission: 5-speed
> Mods: NONE - all stock
>
> Thanks to everyone who responded to my initial question about my car. I
> changed out the PCV valve, (Only $3.51 after tax) and unfortunately this
> has done nothing to lessen the vast amounts of oil that disappear from
> my car. Again, I don't think I have a leak, because there are never any
> oil spots under my car when I park it for the night and come back the
> next morning. The new record for oil consumption: 2 quarts in 3 days!!
> Granted, in those 3 days I drove over 300 miles, but that's only 150
> miles per quart! It doesn't stumble or falter at all, there is no blue
> smoke at any RPM level (I've checked for this time and time again) and
> the other day I clocked my 0-60 time at roughly 7.5 seconds. So, as you
> can see, my car has plenty of power. So I throw my question again to
> the wealth of Honda knowledge in this newsgroup:
>
> Where is my oil going?
>
> A guy I work with used to work for a Honda performance shop, and he said
> that it could be possible that my compression rings are fine, but the
> oil rings are shot. Is this possible? Could it still be the valves? Is
> it possible for oil to leak only while the car is running and not leak
> after it's shut off? I hope someone can throw me a clue because I'm
> drowning here...in cases of oil... ;-)
>
> Thanks again! :-)
>
> Jonathan

If the oil is getting into the combustion chamber, you should be able
to see evidence of it on the spark plugs.
I have seen the oil ring problem. Have you owned the car long? bob
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 22 Feb 2007, 02:32 pm
Tegger
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1990 Prelude Si ALB Again

Jonathan <noneof@your.biz> wrote in
news:45dda737$0$24462$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:

> Engine: B21A1
> Transmission: 5-speed
> Mods: NONE - all stock




All stock? Good for you! So's mine.



>
> Thanks to everyone who responded to my initial question about my car.
> I changed out the PCV valve, (Only $3.51 after tax) and unfortunately
> this has done nothing to lessen the vast amounts of oil that disappear
> from my car. Again, I don't think I have a leak, because there are
> never any oil spots under my car when I park it for the night and come
> back the next morning. The new record for oil consumption: 2 quarts
> in 3 days!!
> Granted, in those 3 days I drove over 300 miles, but that's only 150
> miles per quart! It doesn't stumble or falter at all, there is no
> blue smoke at any RPM level (I've checked for this time and time
> again) and the other day I clocked my 0-60 time at roughly 7.5
> seconds. So, as you can see, my car has plenty of power. So I throw
> my question again to the wealth of Honda knowledge in this newsgroup:
>
> Where is my oil going?





Into your combustion chamber. Your cat is trapping the smoke before it
gets out of the tailpipe.



>
> A guy I work with used to work for a Honda performance shop, and he
> said that it could be possible that my compression rings are fine, but
> the oil rings are shot. Is this possible?




Yep. More likely the rings are bad all around, though.

Modern motor oils combust very efficiently, so you're unlikely to see
oil deposits on the plugs unless your spark is weak.

A tip if you want to try this: With engine warm, pull your primary
oxygen sensor from its hole (before the cat, get it?). Start car, idle
it and rev it. If you've got a smoker, the smoke will pour out of the
sensor hole.

If you try this and there's NO smoke, then the mystery deepens...

Worn bearings can cause smoke as well. Excessive oil throwoff bombards
the underside of the pistons, and the rings are unable to scrape it away
fast enough.



> Could it still be the valves?




Valve guide oil seal leaks are evident as a puff of smoke on startup,
before the cat has have a chance to warm up and start eating the smoke.



> Is it possible for oil to leak only while the car is running and not
> leak after it's shut off?



Yes, but that usually causes a huge mess on the engine and many drips
when the car is stationary.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 23 Feb 2007, 09:45 pm
Jonathan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1990 Prelude Si ALB Again

N.E.Ohio Bob wrote:
> Jonathan wrote:
>> Engine: B21A1
>> Transmission: 5-speed
>> Mods: NONE - all stock
>>
>> Thanks to everyone who responded to my initial question about my car.
>> I changed out the PCV valve, (Only $3.51 after tax) and unfortunately
>> this has done nothing to lessen the vast amounts of oil that disappear
>> from my car. Again, I don't think I have a leak, because there are
>> never any oil spots under my car when I park it for the night and come
>> back the next morning. The new record for oil consumption: 2 quarts
>> in 3 days!! Granted, in those 3 days I drove over 300 miles, but
>> that's only 150 miles per quart! It doesn't stumble or falter at all,
>> there is no blue smoke at any RPM level (I've checked for this time
>> and time again) and the other day I clocked my 0-60 time at roughly
>> 7.5 seconds. So, as you can see, my car has plenty of power. So I
>> throw my question again to the wealth of Honda knowledge in this
>> newsgroup:
>>
>> Where is my oil going?
>>
>> A guy I work with used to work for a Honda performance shop, and he
>> said that it could be possible that my compression rings are fine, but
>> the oil rings are shot. Is this possible? Could it still be the
>> valves? Is it possible for oil to leak only while the car is running
>> and not leak after it's shut off? I hope someone can throw me a clue
>> because I'm drowning here...in cases of oil... ;-)
>>
>> Thanks again! :-)
>>
>> Jonathan

> If the oil is getting into the combustion chamber, you should be
> able to see evidence of it on the spark plugs.
> I have seen the oil ring problem. Have you owned the car
> long? bob


I have only owned it since this past August. The guy before that only
had it about 6 months. (He was an older gentleman who babied it to
death...probably never revved it above 3,000 RPM) The person before
that was supposedly the original owner, who obviously would have had it
for ~16 years. It has always used oil, but has been getting
progressively worse. The spark plugs I use are the Bosch +4's, so
supposedly it's the hottest spark you can get. ($6 each plug) I
haven't checked them recently, but when I first changed them after I
bought the car, the original plugs were stock NGK's that were worn, but
did not have any oil residue on them at all.

Jonathan
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 23 Feb 2007, 09:52 pm
Jonathan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1990 Prelude Si ALB Again

Tegger wrote:
> Jonathan <noneof@your.biz> wrote in
> news:45dda737$0$24462$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>
>> Engine: B21A1
>> Transmission: 5-speed
>> Mods: NONE - all stock

>
>
>
> All stock? Good for you! So's mine.
>
>


Is yours also an ALB series with the 2.1L? (Or 2056cc to be specific)

>
>> Thanks to everyone who responded to my initial question about my car.
>> I changed out the PCV valve, (Only $3.51 after tax) and unfortunately
>> this has done nothing to lessen the vast amounts of oil that disappear
>> from my car. Again, I don't think I have a leak, because there are
>> never any oil spots under my car when I park it for the night and come
>> back the next morning. The new record for oil consumption: 2 quarts
>> in 3 days!!
>> Granted, in those 3 days I drove over 300 miles, but that's only 150
>> miles per quart! It doesn't stumble or falter at all, there is no
>> blue smoke at any RPM level (I've checked for this time and time
>> again) and the other day I clocked my 0-60 time at roughly 7.5
>> seconds. So, as you can see, my car has plenty of power. So I throw
>> my question again to the wealth of Honda knowledge in this newsgroup:
>>
>> Where is my oil going?

>
>
>
>
> Into your combustion chamber. Your cat is trapping the smoke before it
> gets out of the tailpipe.
>
>
>
>> A guy I work with used to work for a Honda performance shop, and he
>> said that it could be possible that my compression rings are fine, but
>> the oil rings are shot. Is this possible?

>
>
>
> Yep. More likely the rings are bad all around, though.


I thought that if your compression rings are bad that your horsepower
decreases. Is this correct?

> Modern motor oils combust very efficiently, so you're unlikely to see
> oil deposits on the plugs unless your spark is weak.
>
> A tip if you want to try this: With engine warm, pull your primary
> oxygen sensor from its hole (before the cat, get it?). Start car, idle
> it and rev it. If you've got a smoker, the smoke will pour out of the
> sensor hole.
>
> If you try this and there's NO smoke, then the mystery deepens...
>
> Worn bearings can cause smoke as well. Excessive oil throwoff bombards
> the underside of the pistons, and the rings are unable to scrape it away
> fast enough.
>


I will definitely try that and see what happens.

>
>
>> Could it still be the valves?

>
>
>
> Valve guide oil seal leaks are evident as a puff of smoke on startup,
> before the cat has have a chance to warm up and start eating the smoke.
>

Hmm...I've looked for blue smoke when cranking the car in the morning to
let it warm up, and I've never seen any blue smoke, just white smoke,
but that's to be expected on cold days, of course. ;-)
>
>
>> Is it possible for oil to leak only while the car is running and not
>> leak after it's shut off?

>
>
> Yes, but that usually causes a huge mess on the engine and many drips
> when the car is stationary.
>
>

I checked the underside yesterday, and it's fairly clean. It has a
little bit of gunk build-up, but nothing that would warrant leaking 2
quarts every 3-4 days.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 23 Feb 2007, 10:10 pm
Jonathan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1990 Prelude Si ALB Again

Jonathan wrote:
> Engine: B21A1
> Transmission: 5-speed
> Mods: NONE - all stock
>
> Thanks to everyone who responded to my initial question about my car. I
> changed out the PCV valve, (Only $3.51 after tax) and unfortunately this
> has done nothing to lessen the vast amounts of oil that disappear from
> my car. Again, I don't think I have a leak, because there are never any
> oil spots under my car when I park it for the night and come back the
> next morning. The new record for oil consumption: 2 quarts in 3 days!!
> Granted, in those 3 days I drove over 300 miles, but that's only 150
> miles per quart! It doesn't stumble or falter at all, there is no blue
> smoke at any RPM level (I've checked for this time and time again) and
> the other day I clocked my 0-60 time at roughly 7.5 seconds. So, as you
> can see, my car has plenty of power. So I throw my question again to
> the wealth of Honda knowledge in this newsgroup:
>
> Where is my oil going?
>
> A guy I work with used to work for a Honda performance shop, and he said
> that it could be possible that my compression rings are fine, but the
> oil rings are shot. Is this possible? Could it still be the valves? Is
> it possible for oil to leak only while the car is running and not leak
> after it's shut off? I hope someone can throw me a clue because I'm
> drowning here...in cases of oil... ;-)
>
> Thanks again! :-)
>
> Jonathan


Update: I took my car to a Honda specialist who worked in a dealer's
shop for over 10 years and asked him what he thought. He said that it's
burning oil because of the design of the cylinder walls; they're made of
carbon-fiber which tears up piston rings and makes rebuilding the engine
practically impossible. (He mentioned a very bad experience with a car
like mine in the past, and actually declined to work on my car because
of this) My next question is, what other engines besides the B21A1
would fit in my car with the least possible amount of modification to
the body and/or engine mounts? Would an H22A fit, per chance? Or, if I
could find one, a B21A? (The Si-States engine; made only in Japan)

One final question: The mechanic said that I have a small chance of
making the oil consumption lessen drastically if I follow these steps:
1. On my next oil change, use synthetic oil and SeaFoam.
2. As soon as that gets the least bit dirty, change it, and use
synthetic oil again, but this time no SeaFoam.
3. When that gets dirty, change and go back to regular oil.
He said that doing so will "loosen up" the piston rings and possibly
cause them to create a better seal.

Does that hold water? I haven't heard of doing that before, but then
again I've never had a car go through oil this fast...

Thanks again to Bob & Tegger for your feedback! I really appreciate it!

Jonathan
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 23 Feb 2007, 10:18 pm
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1990 Prelude Si ALB Again

Jonathan <noneof@your.biz> wrote in
news:45dfb669$0$16719$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:

> Tegger wrote:
>> Jonathan <noneof@your.biz> wrote in
>> news:45dda737$0$24462$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>>
>>> Engine: B21A1
>>> Transmission: 5-speed
>>> Mods: NONE - all stock

>>
>>
>>
>> All stock? Good for you! So's mine.
>>
>>

>
> Is yours also an ALB series with the 2.1L? (Or 2056cc to be specific)




Nope. I have a '91 Integra. B18A1. Has its own oil problems at the
moment. 283K miles and 1,800 miles per quart. Pretty high. This will
increase to 1,300 miles per quart in the summer.


>
> I thought that if your compression rings are bad that your horsepower
> decreases. Is this correct?




Maybe. But _how much_ is your power affected? You CAN have excellent
power but high oil consumption.



>>

> Hmm...I've looked for blue smoke when cranking the car in the morning
> to let it warm up, and I've never seen any blue smoke, just white
> smoke, but that's to be expected on cold days, of course. ;-)




You'd better make absolutely certain that "white" smoke isn't actually
"blue". It can be hard to tell from a distance.

You cannot really see that smoke while in the driver's seat. Have a
helper crank while you stand at the rear of the car and watch the
tailpipe.



>>
>>
>>> Is it possible for oil to leak only while the car is running and not
>>> leak after it's shut off?

>>
>>
>> Yes, but that usually causes a huge mess on the engine and many drips
>> when the car is stationary.
>>
>>

> I checked the underside yesterday, and it's fairly clean. It has a
> little bit of gunk build-up, but nothing that would warrant leaking 2
> quarts every 3-4 days.
>



If it's not dripping, then you're eating the oil. Your engine's gone
bad, my friend. Face up to it.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 23 Feb 2007, 10:24 pm
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1990 Prelude Si ALB Again

Jonathan <noneof@your.biz> wrote in
news:45dfb4f0$0$28119$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:

> It has always used oil,




It has? Then you should not have bought this car. The original owner did
NOT take care of it and neither did the next owner.



> but has been getting
> progressively worse. The spark plugs I use are the Bosch +4's, so
> supposedly it's the hottest spark you can get.




Why would you do that? What possible advantage would hot plugs
get you?

Sorry to say, but you have bought the proverbial "pig in a poke".


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 23 Feb 2007, 10:42 pm
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1990 Prelude Si ALB Again

Jonathan wrote:
> Jonathan wrote:
>> Engine: B21A1
>> Transmission: 5-speed
>> Mods: NONE - all stock
>>
>> Thanks to everyone who responded to my initial question about my car.
>> I changed out the PCV valve, (Only $3.51 after tax) and unfortunately
>> this has done nothing to lessen the vast amounts of oil that disappear
>> from my car. Again, I don't think I have a leak, because there are
>> never any oil spots under my car when I park it for the night and come
>> back the next morning. The new record for oil consumption: 2 quarts
>> in 3 days!! Granted, in those 3 days I drove over 300 miles, but
>> that's only 150 miles per quart! It doesn't stumble or falter at all,
>> there is no blue smoke at any RPM level (I've checked for this time
>> and time again) and the other day I clocked my 0-60 time at roughly
>> 7.5 seconds. So, as you can see, my car has plenty of power. So I
>> throw my question again to the wealth of Honda knowledge in this
>> newsgroup:
>>
>> Where is my oil going?
>>
>> A guy I work with used to work for a Honda performance shop, and he
>> said that it could be possible that my compression rings are fine, but
>> the oil rings are shot. Is this possible? Could it still be the
>> valves? Is it possible for oil to leak only while the car is running
>> and not leak after it's shut off? I hope someone can throw me a clue
>> because I'm drowning here...in cases of oil... ;-)
>>
>> Thanks again! :-)
>>
>> Jonathan

>
> Update: I took my car to a Honda specialist who worked in a dealer's
> shop for over 10 years and asked him what he thought. He said that it's
> burning oil because of the design of the cylinder walls; they're made of
> carbon-fiber which tears up piston rings and makes rebuilding the engine
> practically impossible. (He mentioned a very bad experience with a car
> like mine in the past, and actually declined to work on my car because
> of this) My next question is, what other engines besides the B21A1
> would fit in my car with the least possible amount of modification to
> the body and/or engine mounts? Would an H22A fit, per chance? Or, if I
> could find one, a B21A? (The Si-States engine; made only in Japan)
>
> One final question: The mechanic said that I have a small chance of
> making the oil consumption lessen drastically if I follow these steps:
> 1. On my next oil change, use synthetic oil and SeaFoam.
> 2. As soon as that gets the least bit dirty, change it, and use
> synthetic oil again, but this time no SeaFoam.
> 3. When that gets dirty, change and go back to regular oil.
> He said that doing so will "loosen up" the piston rings and possibly
> cause them to create a better seal.


not even slightly. i'd stay away from this individual.

>
> Does that hold water? I haven't heard of doing that before, but then
> again I've never had a car go through oil this fast...
>
> Thanks again to Bob & Tegger for your feedback! I really appreciate it!
>
> Jonathan


there's plenty of affordable "upgrade" jdm motors that you can
substitute. you could mess about with new rings, but it's not a
guaranteed fix and takes a lot of time and effort. you can sub in a new
motor in half a day if you know what you're doing.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 23 Feb 2007, 10:59 pm
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1990 Prelude Si ALB Again

Jonathan wrote:
> N.E.Ohio Bob wrote:
>> Jonathan wrote:
>>> Engine: B21A1
>>> Transmission: 5-speed
>>> Mods: NONE - all stock
>>>
>>> Thanks to everyone who responded to my initial question about my
>>> car. I changed out the PCV valve, (Only $3.51 after tax) and
>>> unfortunately this has done nothing to lessen the vast amounts of oil
>>> that disappear from my car. Again, I don't think I have a leak,
>>> because there are never any oil spots under my car when I park it for
>>> the night and come back the next morning. The new record for oil
>>> consumption: 2 quarts in 3 days!! Granted, in those 3 days I drove
>>> over 300 miles, but that's only 150 miles per quart! It doesn't
>>> stumble or falter at all, there is no blue smoke at any RPM level
>>> (I've checked for this time and time again) and the other day I
>>> clocked my 0-60 time at roughly 7.5 seconds. So, as you can see, my
>>> car has plenty of power. So I throw my question again to the wealth
>>> of Honda knowledge in this newsgroup:
>>>
>>> Where is my oil going?
>>>
>>> A guy I work with used to work for a Honda performance shop, and he
>>> said that it could be possible that my compression rings are fine,
>>> but the oil rings are shot. Is this possible? Could it still be the
>>> valves? Is it possible for oil to leak only while the car is running
>>> and not leak after it's shut off? I hope someone can throw me a clue
>>> because I'm drowning here...in cases of oil... ;-)
>>>
>>> Thanks again! :-)
>>>
>>> Jonathan

>> If the oil is getting into the combustion chamber, you should be
>> able to see evidence of it on the spark plugs.
>> I have seen the oil ring problem. Have you owned the car
>> long? bob

>
> I have only owned it since this past August. The guy before that only
> had it about 6 months. (He was an older gentleman who babied it to
> death...probably never revved it above 3,000 RPM) The person before
> that was supposedly the original owner, who obviously would have had it
> for ~16 years. It has always used oil, but has been getting
> progressively worse. The spark plugs I use are the Bosch +4's, so
> supposedly it's the hottest spark you can get.


those are just the earth electrodes - they're not the "hot" bit. all
they mean is that you are supposed to be able to do high mileage with
the average electrode gap not degrading too quickly. but in my
experience, bosch plugs aren't worth the effort, no matter /what/
whizzbangery they're supposed to have.

the best consumer grade plugs available are iridiums, imo. [ngk, denso]
but they don't affect oil consumption.

> ($6 each plug) I
> haven't checked them recently, but when I first changed them after I
> bought the car, the original plugs were stock NGK's that were worn, but
> did not have any oil residue on them at all.
>
> Jonathan

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