Honda Car Forum

For months my 87 Accord Lxi had a starting amusement.
If I missed on the first start try then it often acted as if the
battery were very low.
Turn the key off and then try again and it would start normally, i.e.
kick right in.

Now nearly every start attempt, the first turn of the key produces
nothing.
Zero. as if the battery were disconnected or the transmission was in
gear.
Turn the key off
Try again
It fires right up normally.
Sometimes I have to turn the key off more than once.

All suggestions appreciated.

CR

"Redigoogle" <redicliff@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1171071651.696915.57440@h3g2000cwc.googlegrou ps.com:

> For months my 87 Accord Lxi had a starting amusement.
> If I missed on the first start try then it often acted as if the
> battery were very low.

Solenoid goes "click",no crank?

> Turn the key off and then try again and it would start normally, i.e.
> kick right in.
>
> Now nearly every start attempt, the first turn of the key produces
> nothing.
> Zero. as if the battery were disconnected or the transmission was in
> gear.
> Turn the key off
> Try again
> It fires right up normally.
> Sometimes I have to turn the key off more than once.
>
> All suggestions appreciated.
>
> CR
>
>
If it's not making the solenoid click,then it's probably a worn-out
ignition switch.

If it clicks,then worn starter solenoid contacts?
That happened to my 94 Integra.
Some Honda starters can have the solenoid replaced,others have to have the
whole starter assy replaced. (or the solenoid "rebuilt")

see http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/Nippondenso.html

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

"Redigoogle" <redicliff@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1171071651.696915.57440@h3g2000cwc.googlegrou ps.com...
> For months my 87 Accord Lxi had a starting amusement.
> If I missed on the first start try then it often acted as if the
> battery were very low.
> Turn the key off and then try again and it would start normally, i.e.
> kick right in.
>
> Now nearly every start attempt, the first turn of the key produces
> nothing.
> Zero. as if the battery were disconnected or the transmission was in
> gear.
> Turn the key off
> Try again
> It fires right up normally.
> Sometimes I have to turn the key off more than once.
>
> All suggestions appreciated.
>
> CR
>

I've had that happen with a bad battery - a cracked connection inside the
battery. The current of trying to start it the first time, even though low
because of the bad connection, would often be low enough to slightly weld
the connection. After a moment it reached the critical point where more
current would flow and improve the connection, and everything would be more
or less okay until the next time the battery sat. Note that this behavior is
the opposite of a bad connection at the post, where it gets worse with
current flow because of oxidation.

I started seeing this happen around 1980, at the time the first side post
batteries came out. It was a notorious failure mode for the early side posts
and gave them a bad reputation, but I think whatever "advancement" in design
came about then affected all conventional car batteries. Since then, maybe
half the battery failures I've seen have been from internal intermittents.

Anyway, try this test: when you expect the engine to misbehave, leave the
driver's door open so the dome light is on. Watch the dome light when you
turn on the headlights. If the light dims badly and then returns to normal
in a few seconds or even a minute, that's the battery. If it doesn't dim
much but the starter behavior is as bad as it has been, suspect the starter
instead - particularly the solenoid.

Mike

On Feb 9, 7:40 pm, "Redigoogle" <redicl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> For months my 87 Accord Lxi had a starting amusement.
> If I missed on the first start try then it often acted as if the
> battery were very low.
> Turn the key off and then try again and it would start normally, i.e.
> kick right in.
>
> Now nearly every start attempt, the first turn of the key produces
> nothing.
> Zero. as if the battery were disconnected or the transmission was in
> gear.
> Turn the key off
> Try again
> It fires right up normally.
> Sometimes I have to turn the key off more than once.
>
> All suggestions appreciated.
>
> CR


Others gave some good ideas. If the lights don't dim while starting,
something
is making a bad connection. Can be the switch, but it can also be the
small
lead that goes to the starter solenoid if it's loose, or crudded up.
All it is, is a
flag terminal connector of sorts. If they get spread apart, it can
cause it
to fit too loose. If it's not the switch or the connection, you
probably need a
new solenoid, or replace the contacts in the one you have. The mitsuma
starters don't seem to have parts available, so if it's one of those,
you'll
have to get a new starter, or rob a solenoid off a good one. The ND
starters
you can get new contacts online. Another quirk is it's possible your
ring
gear is getting flaky, or off center due to broke welds to the torque
converter,
flywheel, etc.. That will cause it to run slightly off center, and
cause a slow start
speed whenever it gets to that point. On the other teeth, it will work
as
normal usually. My 89 accord has this problem , but not too bad yet..
I recently had my solenoid contacts flake out, and I had to buy a
whole
rebuilt starter. Mine is a mitsuma... :/ Mitsumas are round looking .
I think the ND starters have a slightly boxy look, but I'm not sure.
They look different than the mitsuma.
MK

> Anyway, try this test: <

Thanks for all the advise.
I tried the light test and didn't notice any dimming.

I did notice this: If I turn on they key to activate accessories but
not the starter then off and then start, it fires up right away, no
dead symptom.

It seem that if power is drawn a connection is made so this seems to
favor Mike's battery broken connection idea, I think.

I checked my records and in Jan 2005 I replaced the Neutral Safety
Switch, the ignition switch, the battery and the starter in that
order. Then I had what seemed like starter problems again in August
2005 and it turned out to be the torque converter. Which is to say
that my present problem is most likely the battery or starter.
Wouldn't you agree? I did buy the 60 month battery, but I'll check the
connections first.

Thanks for the responses.
Cliff

On Feb 11, 8:14 pm, "Redigoogle" <redicl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Anyway, try this test: <
>
> Thanks for all the advise.
> I tried the light test and didn't notice any dimming.
>
> I did notice this: If I turn on they key to activate accessories but
> not the starter then off and then start, it fires up right away, no
> dead symptom.
>
> It seem that if power is drawn a connection is made so this seems to
> favor Mike's battery broken connection idea, I think.
>
> I checked my records and in Jan 2005 I replaced the Neutral Safety
> Switch, the ignition switch, the battery and the starter in that
> order. Then I had what seemed like starter problems again in August
> 2005 and it turned out to be the torque converter. Which is to say
> that my present problem is most likely the battery or starter.
> Wouldn't you agree? I did buy the 60 month battery, but I'll check the
> connections first.
>
> Thanks for the responses.
> Cliff

Check your ignition switch again. My fathers car does the same
exact thing and I traced it down to a faulty igntion switch about two
years ago and it just started acting up again. If you have accessory
power and there is no dimming of your headlights your battery
connection are probably ok. Take a look at them and try to wiggle
them by hand. If it starts every time on the second try and not the
first I would look at your ignition switch before your starter.

Here's the final on my problem:
It turned out to be the starter. as I should have guessed all along.

Two years ago I replaced the starter. Eight months later I'm having
starter failure-like symptoms. It turns out to be the torque
converter.
In the process of discovery the starter was removed several times.
In the end, the solenoid case was cracked and the small terminal for
the small wire wobbled, but it worked.

So, this time I bought a new starter and installed it myself.
I forgot to check if the small terminal wobble is by design.
Got the starter in and struggling a little to get that rubber cap over
the postive battery cable nut and I hear a crack. Maybe the solenoid
case is supposed to be cracked...Naaa. I glommed on a little epoxy.
and hope for the best.
The small wire terminal wobbles.
The Accord starts every time so far, though it makes a different
screeching sound once the engine fires. I don't like the sound of it.
You know, when you keep the starter engaged too long. I wonder if one
can get the starter seated improperly. But, if it turns over OK what
could be off?

Anyway, Thanks to everyone for all the help and encouragement.
These Accord really are pretty amazing. They got it right in the late
80s.
Just wish there was some way to jack up the suspension a little. It's
not the best ride in my rural area.

Cliff

On Feb 10, 2:41 pm, n...@wt.net wrote:
> On Feb 9, 7:40 pm, "Redigoogle" <redicl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > For months my 87AccordLxi had a starting amusement.
> > If I missed on the first start try then it often acted as if the
> > battery were very low.
> > Turn the key off and then try again and it would start normally, i.e.
> > kick right in.
>
> > Now nearly every start attempt, the first turn of the key produces
> > nothing.
> > Zero. as if the battery were disconnected or the transmission was in
> > gear.
> > Turn the key off
> > Try again
> > It fires right up normally.
> > Sometimes I have to turn the key off more than once.
>
> > All suggestions appreciated.
>
> > CR
>
> Others gave some good ideas. If the lights don't dim while starting,
> something
> is making a bad connection. Can be the switch, but it can also be the
> small
> lead that goes to the starter solenoid if it's loose, or crudded up.
> All it is, is a
> flag terminal connector of sorts. If they get spread apart, it can
> cause it
> to fit too loose. If it's not the switch or the connection, you
> probably need a
> new solenoid, or replace the contacts in the one you have. The mitsuma
> starters don't seem to have parts available, so if it's one of those,
> you'll
> have to get a new starter, or rob a solenoid off a good one. The ND
> starters
> you can get new contacts online. Another quirk is it's possible your
> ring
> gear is getting flaky, or off center due to broke welds to the torque
> converter,
> flywheel, etc.. That will cause it to run slightly off center, and
> cause a slow start
> speed whenever it gets to that point. On the other teeth, it will work
> as
> normal usually. My 89accordhas this problem , but not too bad yet..
> I recently had my solenoid contacts flake out, and I had to buy a
> whole
> rebuilt starter. Mine is a mitsuma... :/ Mitsumas are round looking .
> I think the ND starters have a slightly boxy look, but I'm not sure.
> They look different than the mitsuma.
> MK

On Feb 22, 5:01 pm, "Redigoogle" <redicl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Here's the final on my problem:
> It turned out to be the starter. as I should have guessed all along.
>
> Two years ago I replaced the starter. Eight months later I'm having
> starter failure-like symptoms. It turns out to be the torque
> converter.
> In the process of discovery the starter was removed several times.
> In the end, the solenoid case was cracked and the small terminal for
> the small wire wobbled, but it worked.
>
> So, this time I bought a new starter and installed it myself.
> I forgot to check if the small terminal wobble is by design.
> Got the starter in and struggling a little to get that rubber cap over
> the postive battery cable nut and I hear a crack. Maybe the solenoid
> case is supposed to be cracked...Naaa. I glommed on a little epoxy.
> and hope for the best.
> The small wire terminal wobbles.
> The Accord starts every time so far, though it makes a different
> screeching sound once the engine fires. I don't like the sound of it.
> You know, when you keep the starter engaged too long. I wonder if one
> can get the starter seated improperly. But, if it turns over OK what
> could be off?

That sound is not good. It will get worse. It's probably the starter
gear
itself extending out a tad too far.. "just guessing". If you had a
starter
that didn't do that, I would use it, and slap the good solenoid onto
it.
Mine did basically the same thing. And I'm glad I kept my old starter.
I'm thinking about putting it back on, with the new solenoid..
But I got another car, and am not driving the accord any more. I've
already dumped the insurance on it.. But I need to be able to sell it,
and will probably swap the starters to get a bit longer life/less
trouble for
the new owner. It really needs a new torque converter to be totally
right,
but I'm not going to bother with that.
MK