Honda Car Forum

"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
news:LMPuh.474974$Fi1.65926@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
>
> OTOH, how can someone have a car for that long and not be aware of what
> exactly is in it???
>
> JT
>
>

And does it matter now, if it wasn't a problem all those years?

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
> news:LMPuh.474974$Fi1.65926@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>
>>
>> OTOH, how can someone have a car for that long and not be aware of what
>> exactly is in it???
>>
>> JT
>>
>>
>
> And does it matter now, if it wasn't a problem all those years?
>
>


If it were me... I wouldn't even admit it!

<G>

JT

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
>> news:LMPuh.474974$Fi1.65926@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>>
>>>
>>> OTOH, how can someone have a car for that long and not be aware of
>>> what exactly is in it???
>>>
>>> JT
>>>
>>>
>>
>> And does it matter now, if it wasn't a problem all those years?
>>
>>
>
>
> If it were me... I wouldn't even admit it!
>
> <G>
>
> JT
>
>
the thing i find interesting is the fact that it's clearly not been an
issue all this time. i've just got myself another crx, 1990 dx, and it
absolutely flies. i'm sure that upgrading from 2pfi to 4pfi would
improve performance further, but i wonder how much difference there is
between a "good" d15 and a "not so good" d16. since there's always
variance in output from engine to engine - speculating, you could
therefore argue that the difference could be approaching that of the
variance "noise".

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:xaOdnZQaOJz_TiHYnZ2dnUVZ_sKunZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>
>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
>>> news:LMPuh.474974$Fi1.65926@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, how can someone have a car for that long and not be aware of
>>>> what exactly is in it???
>>>>
>>>> JT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> And does it matter now, if it wasn't a problem all those years?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> If it were me... I wouldn't even admit it!
>>
>> <G>
>>
>> JT
>>
>>
> the thing i find interesting is the fact that it's clearly not been an
> issue all this time. i've just got myself another crx, 1990 dx, and it
> absolutely flies.

Didya check first to see what motor was in it? ;-)

> i'm sure that upgrading from 2pfi to 4pfi would
> improve performance further, but i wonder how much difference there is
> between a "good" d15 and a "not so good" d16. since there's always
> variance in output from engine to engine - speculating, you could
> therefore argue that the difference could be approaching that of the
> variance "noise".
>

Wasn't it Smokey Yunick who said "there's no substitute for cubic inches"?

you will get more torque from more displacement.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:xaOdnZQaOJz_TiHYnZ2dnUVZ_sKunZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>
>>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:LMPuh.474974$Fi1.65926@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, how can someone have a car for that long and not be aware of
>>>>> what exactly is in it???
>>>>>
>>>>> JT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> And does it matter now, if it wasn't a problem all those years?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> If it were me... I wouldn't even admit it!
>>>
>>> <G>
>>>
>>> JT
>>>
>>>
>> the thing i find interesting is the fact that it's clearly not been an
>> issue all this time. i've just got myself another crx, 1990 dx, and it
>> absolutely flies.
>
> Didya check first to see what motor was in it? ;-)
>
>> i'm sure that upgrading from 2pfi to 4pfi would
>> improve performance further, but i wonder how much difference there is
>> between a "good" d15 and a "not so good" d16. since there's always
>> variance in output from engine to engine - speculating, you could
>> therefore argue that the difference could be approaching that of the
>> variance "noise".
>>
>
> Wasn't it Smokey Yunick who said "there's no substitute for cubic inches"?
>
> you will get more torque from more displacement.
>



Maybe but torque is a direct result of stroke whereas a short stroker
will enjoy a faster windup...

How's dat fer a daffynishun?

JT

In article <Xns98C695078BB76jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> Wasn't it Smokey Yunick who said "there's no substitute for cubic inches"?

Absolutely!

In article <TbednUcdFp7JjyfYnZ2dnUVZ_ragnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
spamvortex@bad.example.net says...
> Dave Garrett wrote:
> > In article <IoGdnbtWzrM9iCTYnZ2dnUVZ_vyunZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
> > spamvortex@bad.example.net says...
> >> Dave Garrett wrote:
> >>> In article <5bGdncG_8trWqyXYnZ2dnUVZ_uCinZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
> >>> spamvortex@bad.example.net says...
> >>>> Dave Garrett wrote:

> >>>>> I think I posted about this when my timing belt was changed a couple of
> >>>>> years ago; the short version was that my usual mechanic told me after
> >>>>> he'd finished the work that he thought my 90 CRX Si had a 1.5L engine
> >>>>> instead of the usual 1.6, because the timing belt for a 1.6 didn't fit,
> >>>>> but the belt from a 1.5 did. He claimed to have called a friend at a
> >>>>> Honda dealer who told him that 1.5L engines had been installed in some
> >>>>> Si models.
> >>>> <snip>
> >>>>
> >>>> that's b.s. the only way this happens is either if the car is
> >>>> crashed/stolen parted out, then later rebuilt again with the cheap
> >>>> motor, or the d16 blew and a cheapo d15 block was used as replacement.
> >>>> whatever the deal, it's /way/ too late to do anything about the person
> >>>> that did the work. if you want you can get d16's as jdm replacements
> >>>> for not an incredible amount of money. depending on local emissions
> >>>> laws, you can maybe get away with a zc motor - some of those are sweet -
> >>>> cheap too.
> >>> I thought it sounded like BS at the time too. I don't know enough about
> >>> the details of the differences between the two engines - do they use the
> >>> same block, or is it significantly different?
> >> i don't do rebuilds so i don't know for sure, but afaik, the blocks and
> >> heads are identical. the crank is slightly longer stroke [to give the
> >> extra few cc's of capacity] and the cam is a little more punchy, but
> >> other than that, they're the same.
> >
> > That's what I was wondering, if the block was the same and the longer
> > stroke was from a different crank. Thanks for confirming that.
> >
> >>> And yeah, I'm certainly not expecting to have any recourse at this late
> >>> date other than never patronizing that dealer again. If I'm going to do
> >>> a swap, I'm inclined to go for a B16 for a significant power boost. But
> >>> as you're probably well aware, a B16 transplant isn't nearly as easy a
> >>> bolt-in as a ZC - off the top of my head, you need new motor mounts,
> >> are you sure?
> >>
> >>> new
> >>> axles,
> >> are you sure?
> >>
> >>> a wiring subharness to connect the VTEC controller, a new ECU,
> >> yes & yes.
> >>
> >>> a
> >>> new gauge cluster,
> >> not if you use a cable transmission.
> >>
> >>> and a new AC bracket (where I live, not having AC in
> >>> the summer is a significant problem, so I need to keep it functioning).
> >>> That's probably at least $2K in parts before you even get started on the
> >>> labor to install everything. Hence my earlier comment about trying to
> >>> find another CRX that's already had a B16 professionally installed.
> >> define "professional"! if you've had this crx for a while and know its
> >> history, stick with it. otherwise you have no idea what you're getting
> >> into. the most important thing is to find someone to do the swap that's
> >> not going to rip you. by the sound of it, half the stuff you've just
> >> mentioned is coming from a source that's trying to set you up to put
> >> their kids through college.
> >
> > Well, I haven't talked to anyone yet about doing this, I'm just at the
> > point of doing research online to see what's involved. Most of the swap
> > sites I've looked at state that new motor mounts are required to plug a
> > B16 into a CRX, and the favored choice seems to be Hasport.
>
> i haven't done a b16 swap so am not an authority, but some of the motor
> mount stuff is more to do with having the lump anchored more firmly
> rather than /needing/ to do it for positioning. if you can, check honda
> part numbers and compare.
>
> > As far as
> > axles, again, given the significant power increase, I've not seen too
> > many recommendations for using the D16/D15 axles, and I was also under
> > the impression that they didn't bolt directly up to a B16.
>
> on some of the hybrids, there can be shaft length differences which
> necessitate different shafts - don't get suckered into the need to do it
> for the extra power thing. /any/ stock shaft the right size will do the
> job - the question is, how long it lasts. unless you're racing all the
> time, stock shafts will be fine.
>
> >
> > But yeah, your point about "professional" is well-taken - there's no
> > real way to know if modifications of this sort were done correctly
> > unless you've done them yourself or you have a shop you can implicitly
> > trust to do the job you ask them to do without screwing you over. I'm
> > definitely not interested in building a show car, or trying to squeeze
> > as much power as possible out of a setup that spends more time being
> > tuned and repaired than being driven. I'm more interested in building
> > the CRX that it seems like Honda everywhere but in the US, namely, a
> > naturally-aspirated, B16-powered one with somewhere between 160-200hp
> > that will be driven daily. However...
>
> zc. twin overhead cam.
> http://www.nippon-motors.com/honda.htm
> google for others.

There are plenty out there - I've read positive comments about these
folks as well - http://www.hmotorsonline.com/

> getting 200hp out of a 1.6 is hard work and i'm not aware of any stock
> solutions that do that. custom solutions and/or turbos will cost you,
> but they'll do the job. and if power is what you want, why stop at 200hp?
> http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/

Yeah, I was thinking of B18s re: 200hp - the B16s are usually around
160.

I thought that link looked familiar, it's the same dude with the
"Larry's Civic" page. Looks like really top-notch work, but until I win
the lottery, I'll probably stick with something considerably less
exotic.

> >> find out if the zc will pass your local emissions laws, then do the zc
> >> swap. that motor is cheap, hella fast [160hp from a 1600 motor], and a
> >> straight bolt-in. then you can keep everything else. and be careful
> >> who you ask!!! talk with a smog person. here in ca, we have "test
> >> only" stations that are forbidden to do work on the vehicles so have no
> >> interest in trying to sell you on stuff you don't need. my local guy is
> >> a honda fan and was delighted to me about what i can and can't do for
> >> egr systems if i want to do mods without getting the vehicle refereed.
> >>
> >> one last thing: if you want to be cheap, just get the si cam and swap it
> >> into your d15. you're only losing 97cc's. you could probably do that
> >> yourself. better yet, get an hot aftermarket cam. no problems with
> >> a/c, vtec, transmission, mounts, etc., etc. do it with the engine still
> >> in the car.
> >
> > Again, good points. A ZC would certainly be easier, and a lot cheaper,
> > but I assume you're talking about a tuned one? I've never heard of a
> > stock ZC with 160hp.
>
> ok, maybe i was confusing it with some of the b16's...

ZCs seem to be around 130, but some people think that number is understated.

> > I'm in Texas, so the smog laws are not nearly as
> > much of an issue as they are in CA.
>
> zc!
>
> >
> > I'm still wondering exactly what it is that I have under the hood in my
> > car - it's starting to sound like someone blew the original 1.6 motor
> > and either swapped in a D15 or used a D15 block and crank with perhaps
> > some D16 internals to get it running again.
>
> that's a lot of work - they probably just threw in the d15 - as is
> indicated by the timing belt.
>
> >
> > Thanks for the advice - maybe I'll start with a ZC swap and see how long
> > it takes me to get bored with that. :-)
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
>
> if you're going to go fast, consider your ability to stop appropriately,
> especially if the lump is heavier. integra calipers/10.25" brake disks
> are bolt-on, and the 15/16" master cylinder and larger brake booster
> from the 90-91 civic ex has the extra volume necessary for the bigger
> front pistons with no brake line bending.

Definitely. I've never been too happy with the stock brakes with the
current engine, so I'd probably do a brake upgrade at the same time as
the engine swap.

Dave

In article <xaOdnZQaOJz_TiHYnZ2dnUVZ_sKunZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
spamvortex@bad.example.net says...
> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> > Michael Pardee wrote:
> >> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
> >> news:LMPuh.474974$Fi1.65926@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> OTOH, how can someone have a car for that long and not be aware of
> >>> what exactly is in it???
> >>>
> >>> JT
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> And does it matter now, if it wasn't a problem all those years?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > If it were me... I wouldn't even admit it!
> >
> > <G>
> >
> > JT
> >
> >
> the thing i find interesting is the fact that it's clearly not been an
> issue all this time. i've just got myself another crx, 1990 dx, and it
> absolutely flies. i'm sure that upgrading from 2pfi to 4pfi would
> improve performance further, but i wonder how much difference there is
> between a "good" d15 and a "not so good" d16. since there's always
> variance in output from engine to engine - speculating, you could
> therefore argue that the difference could be approaching that of the
> variance "noise".

Well, JT's got a point, but now that I've already opened my virtual
mouth, the cat's out of the bag. Now that I think back on it, I had
indications it was a 1.5L after comments from the shops who did timing
belt changes at 60K and 115K, but they never mentioned the engine number
stamped on the block or the possibility that it wasn't the original
engine. And it's really not as big of a deal as I probably made it
sound, especially since I've been considering a swap anyway for quite
some time.

The D15 in the DX is rated at 90hp, and the D16 in the Si is rated at
110hp. My car's not exactly sluggish, and the current engine runs well,
but that's still a pretty healthy amount of power to be giving away,
especially in such a light car.

Oh, and JT, this one's for you:

http://www.houston-imports.com/forum...d.php?t=351953

Too bad an engine swap is even being discussed - I'd leave it exactly as
is. Actually, the $3200 he spent on paint would've paid for one hell of
a mechanical restoration, plus a "normal" paint job.

Dave

In article <ZoGdnRoF9ZzK0SHYnZ2dnUVZ_ompnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
spamvortex@bad.example.net says...
> E. Meyer wrote:
> > "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> > news:RvudnSzq1OSWAibYnZ2dnUVZ_oOonZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> >> E Meyer wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 1/25/07 9:28 PM, in article MPG.2023314d9ff46f5098a15f@207.14.116.130,
> >>> "Dave Garrett" <dave@compassnet.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> In article <elmop-2AA927.20041925012007@nntp2.usenetserver.com>,
> >>>> elmop@nastydesigns.com says...
> >>>>> In article <MPG.2022bac2940e63d898a15a@207.14.116.130>,
> >>>>> Dave Garrett <dave@compassnet.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> And yeah, to say that I'm a bit chapped is probably an understatement.
> >>>>>> This should've been disclosed by the dealer.
> >>>>> Um, no, you should have opened the hood and looked and known exactly
> >>>>> what you were buying.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The used car dealer's job is merely to present the car to you. It's
> >>>>> not
> >>>>> his job to be your friend, hold your hand, and look out for your best
> >>>>> interests. You're on your own.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's not meant to be mean; it's simply reality. It's time you owned
> >>>>> up to the fact that you live in reality.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Did you do a carfax? What did it say?
> >>>> As I said in my first post, it's entirely possible the dealer had no
> >>>> idea about this - as jimbeam said, it's difficult to tell the difference
> >>>> between the two engines externally. I'll admit there's no way of knowing
> >>>> now, and so some of my previous comments were probably ill-advised; I
> >>>> shouldn't be accusing the dealer of bad faith without proof.
> >>>>
> >>>> What I have a problem with is *if* the dealer knew, and knowingly
> >>>> misrepresented the car as an Si when it did not have an Si engine. I'm
> >>>> well aware that in "reality", used car dealers screw customers every
> >>>> day.
> >>>> Dave
> >>>>
> >>> So, to make sure I understand this: You have owned this car for ** 15 **
> >>> years and just now you find out it doesn't have the engine you thought it
> >>> had and you are all bent out of shape about it? I assume you test drove
> >>> it
> >>> **15** years ago and were satisfied with the power it had before you
> >>> bought
> >>> it? Edmunds.com lists the current trade-in value of a 1990 CRX Si at
> >>> $704.
> >>> Changing the engine would cost more than the car is worth and result in a
> >>> car that is still 17 years old and isn't worth any more than $704.
> >>>
> >> buddy, come to the san francisco bay area, list a stock crx si for sale at
> >> $704 and tell me how many calls you get on it. your phone will ring off
> >> the hook for months afterwards. $704? that's a complete joke - i don't
> >> care /what/ edmunds say.
> >
> > I can't speak for San Francisco, but around here (Dallas area) I have found
> > the Edmunds numbers to be a maximum you can only aspire to. You did notice
> > that it is the trade-in value, not suggested retail? My experience has been
> > if you drive into a dealer with a 17 year old car of any type or pedigree,
> > the offer will be about $50.
> >
> >
> yeah, and all the service techs take them home to sell on the private
> market for a good deal more. except the crx's - they keep those. the
> dealer near where i live always has a bunch of crx's out the back where
> the staff park.

I've seen CRX shells, with no motor or trans, sell for more than $700.
Trade-in values are always ridiculously low, but I can't imagine many
CRX owners trying to trade them in at a dealer vs. a private sale.
Anyone who doesn't think $1500-2000 for a generally clean, unmodified
88-91 CRX is easily attainable isn't familiar with how much in demand
these cars still are. A really nice one that's been well-maintained by
an original owner will sell for considerably more.

Dave

Dave Garrett wrote:
> In article <xaOdnZQaOJz_TiHYnZ2dnUVZ_sKunZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
> spamvortex@bad.example.net says...
>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:LMPuh.474974$Fi1.65926@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, how can someone have a car for that long and not be aware of
>>>>> what exactly is in it???
>>>>>
>>>>> JT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> And does it matter now, if it wasn't a problem all those years?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> If it were me... I wouldn't even admit it!
>>>
>>> <G>
>>>
>>> JT
>>>
>>>
>> the thing i find interesting is the fact that it's clearly not been an
>> issue all this time. i've just got myself another crx, 1990 dx, and it
>> absolutely flies. i'm sure that upgrading from 2pfi to 4pfi would
>> improve performance further, but i wonder how much difference there is
>> between a "good" d15 and a "not so good" d16. since there's always
>> variance in output from engine to engine - speculating, you could
>> therefore argue that the difference could be approaching that of the
>> variance "noise".
>
> Well, JT's got a point, but now that I've already opened my virtual
> mouth, the cat's out of the bag. Now that I think back on it, I had
> indications it was a 1.5L after comments from the shops who did timing
> belt changes at 60K and 115K, but they never mentioned the engine number
> stamped on the block or the possibility that it wasn't the original
> engine. And it's really not as big of a deal as I probably made it
> sound, especially since I've been considering a swap anyway for quite
> some time.
>
> The D15 in the DX is rated at 90hp, and the D16 in the Si is rated at
> 110hp. My car's not exactly sluggish, and the current engine runs well,
> but that's still a pretty healthy amount of power to be giving away,
> especially in such a light car.
>
> Oh, and JT, this one's for you:
>
> http://www.houston-imports.com/forum...d.php?t=351953
>
> Too bad an engine swap is even being discussed - I'd leave it exactly as
> is. Actually, the $3200 he spent on paint would've paid for one hell of
> a mechanical restoration, plus a "normal" paint job.
>
> Dave
>
>


Heh heh... I have '82 and '83 1300 hatchbacks. Maybe I should pimp 'em
out for "big" bucks!

JT

(Could I shoe horn a V6 in one of them thar' suckahs???)