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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12 Nov 2011, 06:08 pm
JimSo
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Posts: n/a
Default Question re replacing Brake and Tranny fluid

I took my 2007 Civic LX with only 25k miles on it into the local Honda
dealer garage for an oil change and inspection.

They told me that I should change the tranny and brake fluids and that
each one would cost a total of $119.95 (each!). Actually I said no to
the brake fluid because I figured that I would shop around but I said
okay to the tranny fluid because I THOUGHT the guy said $19.95 NOT
$119.95! (I only found out it was really $119.95 when I went to pick
it up; otherwise I'd have never agreed to this!)

When he explained about the brake fluid he said something about how it
all had to be flushed out with nitrogen or something (? not sure, I
really didn't pay much attention to the details) and it was a process
that required this kind of charge, to get it done the right way.

So my question is:
Was I a victim of dealer gouging? Is there any way that changing
tranny fluid should really cost that much on a car with less than 25k
miles on it? And does it really cost that much to change out my brake
fluid?

I am very skeptical because they previously told me I needed new rear
brakes. I said no but then about a year later I finally had them done
at a local garage for about 1/2 the price of the dealer. That brake
job was about 6 months ago. Now, I took it in to the dealer again, as
above, and they once AGAIN told me I need new rear brakes! I said,
"How is that possible? I just had them done about 6 months ago?!" The
guy sheepishly said, "Oh, well, it says here you still have 4mm left
so it doesn't have to be done right away!" I said, "Hmm, well, I
shouldn't even be CLOSE to needing new brakes at this point!" "Oh,",
the dealer guy said, "well, they don't always measure them real
accurately..."

Should I report this shop to the State consumer fraud division?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 12 Nov 2011, 07:16 pm
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Question re replacing Brake and Tranny fluid

On 11/12/2011 04:08 PM, JimSo wrote:
> I took my 2007 Civic LX with only 25k miles on it into the local Honda
> dealer garage for an oil change and inspection.
>
> They told me that I should change the tranny and brake fluids and that
> each one would cost a total of $119.95 (each!). Actually I said no to
> the brake fluid because I figured that I would shop around but I said
> okay to the tranny fluid because I THOUGHT the guy said $19.95 NOT
> $119.95! (I only found out it was really $119.95 when I went to pick
> it up; otherwise I'd have never agreed to this!)
>
> When he explained about the brake fluid he said something about how it
> all had to be flushed out with nitrogen or something (? not sure, I
> really didn't pay much attention to the details) and it was a process
> that required this kind of charge, to get it done the right way.
>
> So my question is:
> Was I a victim of dealer gouging? Is there any way that changing
> tranny fluid should really cost that much on a car with less than 25k
> miles on it? And does it really cost that much to change out my brake
> fluid?
>
> I am very skeptical because they previously told me I needed new rear
> brakes. I said no but then about a year later I finally had them done
> at a local garage for about 1/2 the price of the dealer. That brake
> job was about 6 months ago. Now, I took it in to the dealer again, as
> above, and they once AGAIN told me I need new rear brakes! I said,
> "How is that possible? I just had them done about 6 months ago?!" The
> guy sheepishly said, "Oh, well, it says here you still have 4mm left
> so it doesn't have to be done right away!" I said, "Hmm, well, I
> shouldn't even be CLOSE to needing new brakes at this point!" "Oh,",
> the dealer guy said, "well, they don't always measure them real
> accurately..."
>
> Should I report this shop to the State consumer fraud division?


why don't you stand outside their service entrance with sandwich boards
saying they ripped you off? i'm sure they'll give you your money back
real quick.


re brake fluid, yes, it should be replaced every 2-3 years. it absorbs
moisture from the air and its boiling point can potentially drop below
that of operating temperature. if that were to happen, you'd lose
braking. also, regular maintenance keeps the seals healthy since the
fluid contains seal conditioners.

re transmission fluid, some people think this should be changed as
frequently as possible, but since they're the same people that have
never bothered with testing, they're simply working on superstition, not
data. look in your owners manual - it'll tell you what the change
interval should be, if the car's own service reminder doesn't do the job
for you.

to summarize, the dealer is soaking you, mostly, but correct on the
brake fluid. but that's just coincidence - just like a broken clock is
right twice a day. just go back to your independent, make sure they use
honda parts, and you'll be fine.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 12 Nov 2011, 08:32 pm
Nunya Bidnez
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Question re replacing Brake and Tranny fluid

On Nov 12, 8:16*pm, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 11/12/2011 04:08 PM, JimSo wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I took my 2007 Civic LX with only 25k miles on it into the local Honda
> > dealer garage for an oil change and inspection.

>
> > They told me that I should change the tranny and brake fluids and that
> > each one would cost a total of $119.95 (each!). Actually I said no to
> > the brake fluid because I figured that I would shop around but I said
> > okay to the tranny fluid because I THOUGHT the guy said $19.95 NOT
> > $119.95! (I only found out it was really $119.95 when I went to pick
> > it up; otherwise I'd have never agreed to this!)

>
> > When he explained about the brake fluid he said something about how it
> > all had to be flushed out with nitrogen or something (? not sure, I
> > really didn't pay much attention to the details) and it was a process
> > that required this kind of charge, to get it done the right way.

>
> > So my question is:
> > Was I a victim of dealer gouging? Is there any way that changing
> > tranny fluid should really cost that much on a car with less than 25k
> > miles on it? And does it really cost that much to change out my brake
> > fluid?

>
> > I am very skeptical because they previously told me I needed new rear
> > brakes. I said no but then about a year later I finally had them done
> > at a local garage for about 1/2 the price of the dealer. That brake
> > job was about 6 months ago. Now, I took it in to the dealer again, as
> > above, and they once AGAIN told me I need new rear brakes! I said,
> > "How is that possible? I just had them done about 6 months ago?!" The
> > guy sheepishly said, "Oh, well, it says here you still have 4mm left
> > so it doesn't have to be done right away!" I said, "Hmm, well, I
> > shouldn't even be CLOSE to needing new brakes at this point!" "Oh,",
> > the dealer guy said, "well, they don't always measure them real
> > accurately..."

>
> > Should I report this shop to the State consumer fraud division?

>
> why don't you stand outside their service entrance with sandwich boards
> saying they ripped you off? *i'm sure they'll give you your money back
> real quick.
>
> re brake fluid, yes, it should be replaced every 2-3 years. *it absorbs
> moisture from the air and its boiling point can potentially drop below
> that of operating temperature. *if that were to happen, you'd lose
> braking. *also, regular maintenance keeps the seals healthy since the
> fluid contains seal conditioners.
>
> re transmission fluid, some people think this should be changed as
> frequently as possible, but since they're the same people that have
> never bothered with testing, they're simply working on superstition, not
> data. *look in your owners manual - it'll tell you what the change
> interval should be, if the car's own service reminder doesn't do the job
> for you.
>
> to summarize, the dealer is soaking you, mostly, but correct on the
> brake fluid. *but that's just coincidence - just like a broken clock is
> right twice a day. *just go back to your independent, make sure they use
> honda parts, and you'll be fine.
>
> --
> nomina rutrum rutrum


I see no reason for the sarcasm but thanks for the response.
When you say "but correct on the brake fluid" what are they correct
about exactly? About my needing it at 23k or about charging $120 for
it? I'm not sure what you're saying.

As far as boycotting them or reporting them, I was referring to the
fact that they seem to say "you need rear brakes" whether I do or not,
as s.o.p.. If I'm not mistaken this kind of thing is illegal.

They actually put the brake report in green ("okay") on the report, so
I guess it was just the guy who spoke with me trying to drum up brake
business, moreso than the mechanics actually stating that I NEEDED
brakes (I just double-checked my "report" to see what they had
actually written.)

What I want to know more than anything, is "What is a reasonable price
to pay for brake fluid and tranny fluid changing on a Honda Civic LX
2007?" If they charged $120 instead of, say, $100, okay, fine. But if
they charged $120 instead of $60 then I really got taken.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 12 Nov 2011, 09:29 pm
Elmo P. Shagnasty
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Question re replacing Brake and Tranny fluid

In article
<307aa776-889a-4c55-a41f-35569e73223a@u10g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
JimSo <jimsocal@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I took my 2007 Civic LX with only 25k miles on it into the local Honda
> dealer garage for an oil change and inspection.
>
> They told me that I should change the tranny and brake fluids and that
> each one would cost a total of $119.95 (each!). Actually I said no to
> the brake fluid because I figured that I would shop around but I said
> okay to the tranny fluid because I THOUGHT the guy said $19.95 NOT
> $119.95! (I only found out it was really $119.95 when I went to pick
> it up; otherwise I'd have never agreed to this!)
>
> When he explained about the brake fluid he said something about how it
> all had to be flushed out with nitrogen or something (? not sure, I
> really didn't pay much attention to the details) and it was a process
> that required this kind of charge, to get it done the right way.
>
> So my question is:
> Was I a victim of dealer gouging?


The whole "we have to change brake fluid a special way that no one has
ever heard of" thing tends to lend credence to that. But a buck twenty
for Honda fluid at Honda prices, plus an hour's labor, isn't out of line.

Transmission? It should be a simple drain and fill, and that sound
excessive. Unless they decided to do the Honda-recommended second level
method of multiple drain/drive/fill iterations to change out as much
fluid as possible; if that's not what you asked for, then yes, you were
taken.




> I am very skeptical because they previously told me I needed new rear
> brakes. I said no but then about a year later I finally had them done
> at a local garage for about 1/2 the price of the dealer. That brake
> job was about 6 months ago. Now, I took it in to the dealer again, as
> above, and they once AGAIN told me I need new rear brakes! I said,
> "How is that possible? I just had them done about 6 months ago?!" The
> guy sheepishly said, "Oh, well, it says here you still have 4mm left
> so it doesn't have to be done right away!" I said, "Hmm, well, I
> shouldn't even be CLOSE to needing new brakes at this point!" "Oh,",
> the dealer guy said, "well, they don't always measure them real
> accurately..."
>
> Should I report this shop to the State consumer fraud division?


OK, yes, avoid this dealership.

Should you "report them to the state consumer fraud division"? Wasting
your time. Just avoid them.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 12 Nov 2011, 09:33 pm
Elmo P. Shagnasty
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Question re replacing Brake and Tranny fluid

In article
<556afef5-f3a1-4f94-8203-388e1ae79a1a@z22g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Nunya Bidnez <gringomiguel@gmail.com> wrote:

> When you say "but correct on the brake fluid" what are they correct
> about exactly? About my needing it at 23k or about charging $120 for
> it? I'm not sure what you're saying.


It needed done, and if you read your owner's manual (which I presume you
have NOT read) you would find that the brake fluid change interval is
based SOLELY on time, and has NOTHING to do with mileage.

So your thought that "it's only been 23K miles" is irrelevant. A 2007
model year car is at least 3, and possibly 5, years old--and Honda
specifies a 3 year interval for brake fluid change.

No one really knows what that service goes for in your area; call the
other dealers and find out. But it's not rocket surgery; as jim says,
use Honda fluid and have anyone who knows what he's doing handle the
work. It might be the same price, it might be cheaper. Hell, it might
be more expensive. Call around.




> As far as boycotting them or reporting them, I was referring to the
> fact that they seem to say "you need rear brakes" whether I do or not,
> as s.o.p.. If I'm not mistaken this kind of thing is illegal.


If you want to waste your time trying to police the business world,
great. But how about working on the banks and big pharma first?
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 12 Nov 2011, 10:24 pm
Al
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Question re replacing Brake and Tranny fluid

On 11/12/2011 9:32 PM, Nunya Bidnez wrote:
> On Nov 12, 8:16 pm, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> On 11/12/2011 04:08 PM, JimSo wrote:
>>


Some things you might want to consider:

The service writer may have seen on his computer screen that brakes had
been recommended last time, and not noticed that the tech actually
marked them green this time.

Are you absolutely sure that the independent shop did actually put new
brakes on? You seem to be making an assumption that the independent
must be honest and the dealer must be a crook.

Many experienced people on this board seem to agree that only Honda
brand transmission fluid be used. Most independent shops don't have
that sitting on the shelf. It takes 3 or 4 quarts to do what is
considered a routine change. Honda fluid retails around 8 dollars a
quart. So your question is whether 120 is too much for 30 bucks of
material. In my opinion, if I couldn't do it myself, the answer is yes,
it is worth it to be pretty sure the right stuff was used, that the used
fluid was disposed of properly, that an insured shop with qualified
staff was doing it.

The brake fluid question has these considerations - the fluid is less
than 10 bucks, but the amount of work and time is greater than a
transmission fluid change. I'm not aware of any nitrogen procedure, you
may have that mixed up. Beam explained why it's a good idea to change it.

Do dealers over-maintain? Probably.

Do over-maintained vehicles last longer than under-maintained ones?
Probably.

Are over-maintained vehicles safer than under-maintained ones? Probably.

If you don't change your fluids now, will something go horribly wrong
tomorrow, next month, next year? Probably not.

I don't know what your Honda shop looks like or what the independent
shop looks like, but in my experience most dealership shops are
multi-million dollar facilities with inventory, staff, lighting, heat,
waiting areas, etc. Few independent shops come close to the investment.
Most Honda techs work on Honda's all day long, many independents might
get only a couple a week, in between trucks, Fords, Chevy's, VW's, etc.

You invested in the car, you decide how long it should last and who you
should trust it to.

I do not work for or own a dealership and never have. In fact my son
operates an independent shop. I just tire of the automatic dealer
bashing that goes on.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 12 Nov 2011, 11:33 pm
Nunya Bidnez
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Question re replacing Brake and Tranny fluid

On Nov 12, 7:29*pm, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com>
wrote:
> In article
> <307aa776-889a-4c55-a41f-35569e732...@u10g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *JimSo <jimso...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I took my 2007 Civic LX with only 25k miles on it into the local Honda
> > dealer garage for an oil change and inspection.

>
> > They told me that I should change the tranny and brake fluids and that
> > each one would cost a total of $119.95 (each!). Actually I said no to
> > the brake fluid because I figured that I would shop around but I said
> > okay to the tranny fluid because I THOUGHT the guy said $19.95 NOT
> > $119.95! (I only found out it was really $119.95 when I went to pick
> > it up; otherwise I'd have never agreed to this!)

>
> > When he explained about the brake fluid he said something about how it
> > all had to be flushed out with nitrogen or something (? not sure, I
> > really didn't pay much attention to the details) and it was a process
> > that required this kind of charge, to get it done the right way.

>
> > So my question is:
> > Was I a victim of dealer gouging?

>
> The whole "we have to change brake fluid a special way that no one has
> ever heard of" thing tends to lend credence to that. *But a buck twenty
> for Honda fluid at Honda prices, plus an hour's labor, isn't out of line.
>
> Transmission? *It should be a simple drain and fill, and that sound
> excessive. *Unless they decided to do the Honda-recommended second level
> method of multiple drain/drive/fill iterations to change out as much
> fluid as possible; if that's not what you asked for, then yes, you were
> taken.
>
> > I am very skeptical because they previously told me I needed new rear
> > brakes. I said no but then about a year later I finally had them done
> > at a local garage for about 1/2 the price of the dealer. That brake
> > job was about 6 months ago. Now, I took it in to the dealer again, as
> > above, and they once AGAIN told me I need new rear brakes! I said,
> > "How is that possible? I just had them done about 6 months ago?!" The
> > guy sheepishly said, "Oh, well, it says here you still have 4mm left
> > so it doesn't have to be done right away!" I said, "Hmm, well, I
> > shouldn't even be CLOSE to needing new brakes at this point!" "Oh,",
> > the dealer guy said, "well, they don't always measure them real
> > accurately..."

>
> > Should I report this shop to the State consumer fraud division?

>
> OK, yes, avoid this dealership.
>
> Should you "report them to the state consumer fraud division"? *Wasting
> your time. *Just avoid them.


Thanks for the advice and info!
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 12 Nov 2011, 11:53 pm
Nunya Bidnez
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Question re replacing Brake and Tranny fluid

On Nov 12, 8:24*pm, Al <a...@spamless.net> wrote:
> On 11/12/2011 9:32 PM, Nunya Bidnez wrote:
>
> > On Nov 12, 8:16 pm, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> *wrote:
> >> On 11/12/2011 04:08 PM, JimSo wrote:

>
> Some things you might want to consider:
>
> The service writer may have seen on his computer screen that brakes had
> been recommended last time, and not noticed that the tech actually
> marked them green this time.
>
> Are you absolutely sure that the independent shop did actually put new
> brakes on? *You seem to be making an assumption that the independent
> must be honest and the dealer must be a crook.
>
> Many experienced people on this board seem to agree that only Honda
> brand transmission fluid be used. *Most independent shops don't have
> that sitting on the shelf. *It takes 3 or 4 quarts to do what is
> considered a routine change. *Honda fluid retails around 8 dollars a
> quart. *So your question is whether 120 is too much for 30 bucks of
> material. *In my opinion, if I couldn't do it myself, the answer is yes,
> it is worth it to be pretty sure the right stuff was used, that the used
> fluid was disposed of properly, that an insured shop with qualified
> staff was doing it.
>
> The brake fluid question has these considerations - the fluid is less
> than 10 bucks, but the amount of work and time is greater than a
> transmission fluid change. *I'm not aware of any nitrogen procedure, you
> may have that mixed up. Beam explained why it's a good idea to change it.
>
> Do dealers over-maintain? *Probably.
>
> Do over-maintained vehicles last longer than under-maintained ones?
> Probably.
>
> Are over-maintained vehicles safer than under-maintained ones? *Probably.
>
> If you don't change your fluids now, will something go horribly wrong
> tomorrow, next month, next year? *Probably not.
>
> I don't know what your Honda shop looks like or what the independent
> shop looks like, but in my experience most dealership shops are
> multi-million dollar facilities with inventory, staff, lighting, heat,
> waiting areas, etc. *Few independent shops come close to the investment..
> * Most Honda techs work on Honda's all day long, many independents might
> get only a couple a week, in between trucks, Fords, Chevy's, VW's, etc.
>
> You invested in the car, you decide how long it should last and who you
> should trust it to.
>
> I do not work for or own a dealership and never have. *In fact my son
> operates an independent shop. *I just tire of the automatic dealer
> bashing that goes on.


Hey, thanks to all for the advice and info!

As to "dealer bashing" it is based, unfortunately, on people's
experiences a lot of the time.

I have had several experiences with this and other dealers - Nissan
for one - in which I was either recommended to do un-needed work, or
work is done and not done right, and certainly over-charged, etc.

The "you need a brake job" thing above is a case in point. I believe I
did not need a brake job the first time they told me because a) the
car only had 14k miles on it; b) it wasn't braking poorly nor making
noise; and c) I had another mechanic look at it and they said it was
not really in need of brakes yet.

For them to tell me I "need brakes soon" a 2nd time, after I had them
installed 6 months ago by an independent who I'm pretty sure is
honest, says to me that this dealer is lying and cheating OR
incompetent and cannot tell when brakes are needed (I suspect the
former not the latter.)

As for not reporting them I think if everyone says "don't report them,
it won't do any good" [them being any fraudulent business], then they
will for sure go on cheating people; whereas if it's reported
something MIGHT change. To me, it's not that difficult to report
fraud, the internet makes it very easy usually. To me it's like people
who don't vote; if you don't, you are part of the problem, not part
of the solution.

However in THIS case I will not report them because I have no real
proof they did anything wrong, and it would indeed be a waste of time
due to the lack of evidence. However, if I did have proof I would
report them.

Oh, and I agree that we should start with the banksters and Big Pharma
and so on, ad nauseum.

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 13 Nov 2011, 12:04 am
JimSo
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Question re replacing Brake and Tranny fluid

Hey, thanks to all for the advice and info!

As to "dealer bashing" it is based, unfortunately, on people's
experiences a lot of the time.

I have had several experiences with this and other dealers - Nissan
for one - in which I was either recommended to do un-needed work, or
work is done and not done right, and certainly over-charged, etc.

The "you need a brake job" thing above is a case in point. I believe I
did
not need a brake job the first time they told me because
a) the car only had 14k miles on it;
b) it wasn't braking poorly nor making
noise; and
c) I had another mechanic look at it and they said it was not really
in need of brakes yet.

For them to tell me I "need brakes soon" a 2nd time, after I had them
installed 6 months ago by an independent who I'm pretty sure is
honest, says to me that this dealer is lying and cheating OR
incompetent and cannot tell when brakes are needed (I suspect the
former not the latter.)

As for not reporting them I think if everyone says "don't report them,
it won't do any good" [them being any fraudulent business], then they
will for sure go on cheating people; whereas if it's reported
something MIGHT change. To me, it's not that difficult to report
fraud, the internet makes it very easy usually. To me it's like not
voting;
if you don't, you are part of the problem, not part
of the solution.

However in THIS case you are right; I will not report them because I
have no real
proof they did anything wrong, and it would indeed be a waste of time
due to the lack of evidence. However, if I did have proof I would
report them.

Oh, and I agree that we should start with the banksters and Big Pharma
and so on, ad nauseum.

Thanks again for the advice and info. I think I got ripped off in
terms of over-paying but
at least it probably got done right and with good parts/materials.
I won't go back to this dealer any more for anything. I'm done with
them. I may post a
warning about them on Yelp or some other review type web sites based
on my experience.
I can't say they "ripped me off" but I can say that I came away from
the experience
feeling that I was overcharged and told I'd soon need to have work
done that almost
certainly does not need to be done soon. (brake job)
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 13 Nov 2011, 06:15 am
Elmo P. Shagnasty
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Question re replacing Brake and Tranny fluid

In article
<7f5eb927-ba42-4508-887a-674dfd13f653@z15g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
JimSo <jimsocal@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I think I got ripped off in
> terms of over-paying but
> at least it probably got done right and with good parts/materials.


I really don't think so on the brake job. Labor at a dealership is
easily $80-$90/hour, and as was pointed out earlier the brake fluid plus
disposal plus rags is the rest of it.

And, it needed done.

The brake fluid would still be a certain cost, even if you took the car
to an indy.

Honda Genuine brake fluid is $6 plus shipping from a dealer online, or
probably $9.95 from the dealer's service department. Four quarts of
that is, in fact, $40. Add in $80/hour labor component, and $120 is not
at all out of line for a dealership job.

Does an independent shop charge less than $80/hour? Maybe he charges
$60/hour--but he probably won't charge much less, if even that little.

No, I don't think that having someone else change out your brake fluid
with Honda Genuine brake fluid for $120 was a ripoff.

That being said, you could always do it yourself. Buy the right tool
and spend some time jacking up the car and taking off the wheels, and
you're down to the $24 plus shipping--call it $30 to $35--price of the
brake fluid in addition to your time and hassle. And that doesn't count
the cost of the tool (or a buddy helping you) or the fluid disposal.
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