Honda Car Forum


 

Go Back   Honda Car Forum - Accord Parts Civic Tuning Acura Racing > Honda Acura > Honda 2

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 24 Oct 2011, 06:58 pm
/g
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Questions about gas mileage and lights flickering, 98 civic LX

Dear Honda enthusiasts, I need the benefit of your knowledge and experience.

I apologize for the length of this, I wanted to give all details.

The car is an 1998 Civic LX. 165K miles approx.

I have 2 issues/questions.

The first is gas mileage. I bought the car from my son, and he claims he was
getting 35 to 40 mpg. His commute was mainly highway to and from Boston. My
commute is mostly 2 lane local roads with some highway. I'm getting 32 to 34
max. I have done a timing belt, and a tune-up, plugs, air filter, oil change
to synthetic. I verified that the belt is on correct, not off one tooth as I
thought. I checked the timing, and yes I shorted the connector and got a
CEL. The timing was advanced about 1/4" from the correct marks. When I
reset it to the correct marks, the mileage went down. I have since moved the
distributor as far retarded as possible, and the mileage came up a bit. I
also googled mileage for this car, and it came back as 32 mpg.

My question to you is, from experience, what kind of mileage have you folks
who own this car or one very similar, have you gotten? If higher than what
I'm getting, what could be wrong/what have I missed?

Second issue. The headlights are flickering. While driving on the highway,
the lights will go from normal brightness to a dim mode, and then back to
normal brightness. At this time the dash lights and taillights do the same.
The taillights were confirmed by a co-worker who passed me on the highway on
the way to work. I had mentioned this to him, and he knew it was me when he
saw the taillights dim.

To check this, I bought a voltmeter that plugs into the cigarette lighter,
and gives a digital readout of the voltage. I'm getting right around 12.0v
with headlights off, and as low as 11.5 with headlights on (car running). I
have not had the chance to check the voltage levels when the lights do the
dimming thing. Tonight, I pulled the fusebox and per the Haynes manual,
checked the ELD (electrical load dectector), and it passed the test. Also, I
plugged the voltmeter into another vehicle and got 14 volts with the car
running, just to check the voltmeter.

I googled the headlight thing, and got this:
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2240390

It seems that several of these folks replaced the alternator to no effect
(regarding the lights flickering, not the low voltage). Also, someone
mentioned cutting the wire to the computer that shuts the alternator off at
times to save gas.

Mr. Tegger, I looked at your sight and found the TSB about the wire chafing
on the intake bracket. I have not been able to get under the car yet to
check this.

The battery is brand new.

The alternator is keeping the battery charged to some level, the car starts
every time I use it. Although, I left the headlights on accidentally one
morning and killed the battery in 15 minutes. (almost missed a job
interview, I was NOT amused.....)

So, after this longwinded ramble......... my question is, have any of you
experienced this, and what was your solution?

Oh yeah, currently, no CEL, and the battery/alternator dash light is
working, and never comes on while the car is running. All screws are tight
in the under hood fuse box. And, the alternator belt is tight.

?????????????????????

Thanks for any help, /glenn


Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 24 Oct 2011, 07:13 pm
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Questions about gas mileage and lights flickering, 98 civic LX

"/g" <me@you.com> wrote in
news:lYmpq.37$ZX.17@newsreading01.news.tds.net:

>
> Second issue. The headlights are flickering. While driving on the
> highway, the lights will go from normal brightness to a dim mode, and
> then back to normal brightness. At this time the dash lights and
> taillights do the same. The taillights were confirmed by a co-worker
> who passed me on the highway on the way to work. I had mentioned this
> to him, and he knew it was me when he saw the taillights dim.




That is a normal function of your Electrical Load Detector (thank your
friendly federal EPA!).

For proof of this, ask your dealer for a printout of Honda Service News
from December 2000.

I can send you a copy of this issue if you supply a valid email address.


--
Tegger
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 24 Oct 2011, 07:19 pm
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Questions about gas mileage and lights flickering, 98 civic LX

"/g" <me@you.com> wrote in
news:lYmpq.37$ZX.17@newsreading01.news.tds.net:

> Dear Honda enthusiasts, I need the benefit of your knowledge and
> experience.
>
> I apologize for the length of this, I wanted to give all details.
>
> The car is an 1998 Civic LX. 165K miles approx.
>
> I have 2 issues/questions.
>
> The first is gas mileage. I bought the car from my son, and he claims
> he was getting 35 to 40 mpg. His commute was mainly highway to and
> from Boston. My commute is mostly 2 lane local roads with some
> highway. I'm getting 32 to 34 max. I have done a timing belt, and a
> tune-up, plugs, air filter, oil change to synthetic. I verified that
> the belt is on correct, not off one tooth as I thought. I checked the
> timing, and yes I shorted the connector and got a CEL.




And the error code you got was........?



> The timing was
> advanced about 1/4" from the correct marks.




What were you interpreting as the "correct marks"? There's only one
"correct mark", you know.



> When I reset it to the
> correct marks, the mileage went down. I have since moved the
> distributor as far retarded as possible,




Then something's still wrong. The distributor should be just about in the
middle of its adjustment when the timimg is set correctly.


<snip>


>
> The alternator is keeping the battery charged to some level,



With the enigne idling, you should see about 13.5-14.4VDC between the
battery terminals. Anything less and you've got a bad alternator. Or it's
the ELD in action...


<snip>


--
Tegger
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 24 Oct 2011, 07:37 pm
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Questions about gas mileage and lights flickering, 98 civic LX

On 10/24/2011 04:58 PM, /g wrote:
> Dear Honda enthusiasts, I need the benefit of your knowledge and experience.
>
> I apologize for the length of this, I wanted to give all details.
>
> The car is an 1998 Civic LX. 165K miles approx.
>
> I have 2 issues/questions.
>
> The first is gas mileage. I bought the car from my son, and he claims he was
> getting 35 to 40 mpg. His commute was mainly highway to and from Boston. My
> commute is mostly 2 lane local roads with some highway. I'm getting 32 to 34
> max. I have done a timing belt, and a tune-up, plugs, air filter, oil change
> to synthetic. I verified that the belt is on correct, not off one tooth as I
> thought. I checked the timing, and yes I shorted the connector and got a
> CEL. The timing was advanced about 1/4" from the correct marks. When I
> reset it to the correct marks, the mileage went down. I have since moved the
> distributor as far retarded as possible, and the mileage came up a bit. I
> also googled mileage for this car, and it came back as 32 mpg.
>
> My question to you is, from experience, what kind of mileage have you folks
> who own this car or one very similar, have you gotten? If higher than what
> I'm getting, what could be wrong/what have I missed?


1. there's a ton of things affecting mileage. apart from
lead-footedness, type of gasoline, tire inflation pressure, brake usage
and condition, there's also the fundamental difference in your "local
road" usage vs his highway. you need to get your head around that
before you start doing intellectually retarded things like trying to
**** with the ignition timing.

2. i smell bullshit. you /can't/ **** with the ignition timing on the
98 - it's an obdII vehicle with the timing set by the tone ring on the
crank, not distributor position. even if you could retard it, doing so
typically reduces mileage, not increases it.


>
> Second issue. The headlights are flickering. While driving on the highway,
> the lights will go from normal brightness to a dim mode, and then back to
> normal brightness. At this time the dash lights and taillights do the same.
> The taillights were confirmed by a co-worker who passed me on the highway on
> the way to work. I had mentioned this to him, and he knew it was me when he
> saw the taillights dim.
>
> To check this, I bought a voltmeter that plugs into the cigarette lighter,
> and gives a digital readout of the voltage. I'm getting right around 12.0v
> with headlights off, and as low as 11.5 with headlights on (car running).


classic alternator problem. you don't state mileage, but if you're up
at 150k or more, the alternator is due for replacement. if it's not
just a loose belt. if this problem even exists at all.


> I
> have not had the chance to check the voltage levels when the lights do the
> dimming thing. Tonight, I pulled the fusebox and per the Haynes manual,
> checked the ELD (electrical load dectector), and it passed the test. Also, I
> plugged the voltmeter into another vehicle and got 14 volts with the car
> running, just to check the voltmeter.
>
> I googled the headlight thing, and got this:
> http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2240390
>
> It seems that several of these folks replaced the alternator to no effect
> (regarding the lights flickering, not the low voltage). Also, someone
> mentioned cutting the wire to the computer that shuts the alternator off at
> times to save gas.
>
> Mr. Tegger, I looked at your sight and found the TSB about the wire chafing
> on the intake bracket. I have not been able to get under the car yet to
> check this.
>
> The battery is brand new.
>
> The alternator is keeping the battery charged to some level, the car starts
> every time I use it. Although, I left the headlights on accidentally one
> morning and killed the battery in 15 minutes. (almost missed a job
> interview, I was NOT amused.....)
>
> So, after this longwinded ramble......... my question is, have any of you
> experienced this, and what was your solution?
>
> Oh yeah, currently, no CEL, and the battery/alternator dash light is
> working, and never comes on while the car is running. All screws are tight
> in the under hood fuse box. And, the alternator belt is tight.
>
> ?????????????????????
>
> Thanks for any help, /glenn
>
>



--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 24 Oct 2011, 07:40 pm
/g
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Questions about gas mileage and lights flickering, 98 civic LX


"Tegger" <invalid@example.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9F88CECC5CCE1tegger@208.90.168.18...
> "/g" <me@you.com> wrote in
> news:lYmpq.37$ZX.17@newsreading01.news.tds.net:
>
>> Dear Honda enthusiasts, I need the benefit of your knowledge and
>> experience.
>>
>> I apologize for the length of this, I wanted to give all details.
>>
>> The car is an 1998 Civic LX. 165K miles approx.
>>
>> I have 2 issues/questions.
>>
>> The first is gas mileage. I bought the car from my son, and he claims
>> he was getting 35 to 40 mpg. His commute was mainly highway to and
>> from Boston. My commute is mostly 2 lane local roads with some
>> highway. I'm getting 32 to 34 max. I have done a timing belt, and a
>> tune-up, plugs, air filter, oil change to synthetic. I verified that
>> the belt is on correct, not off one tooth as I thought. I checked the
>> timing, and yes I shorted the connector and got a CEL.

>
>
>
> And the error code you got was........?


I didn't check for an error code. My understanding is that when you
short the timing connector, the check engine light
should come on, and it did. When I pulled the short, the light went out.
Something about telling the computer not to adjust
the timing while you are trying to set the timing.

>
>
>
>> The timing was
>> advanced about 1/4" from the correct marks.

>
>
>
> What were you interpreting as the "correct marks"? There's only one
> "correct mark", you know.


Correct, the center one in the group of 3. The center is 16 btdc, (I
think) and the outer ones are 2 degrees in either
direction, one advanced from the center and the other retarded from the
center. And there is a single mark a bit off to the
right, and that is TDC.

>
>
>
>> When I reset it to the
>> correct marks, the mileage went down. I have since moved the
>> distributor as far retarded as possible,

>
>
>
> Then something's still wrong. The distributor should be just about in the
> middle of its adjustment when the timimg is set correctly.


I think that is about where it was...... I did mark where it was before
I moved anything, and that mark was slightly off center which makes sense
seeing as it came up as a few degrees advanced.

>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>>
>> The alternator is keeping the battery charged to some level,

>
>
> With the enigne idling, you should see about 13.5-14.4VDC between the
> battery terminals. Anything less and you've got a bad alternator. Or it's
> the ELD in action...


And that's exactly what I'm trying to figure out. Whereas my battery is
not getting a full charge, as confirmed by Sears who load tested the
battery and said that the capacity was about 350CCA on a battery that has a
full charge of 500CCA. I really don't want to just change out the
alternator just to find out that it isn't the problem. Even with the ELD
in action though, shouldn't the voltage jump to 14V or so at some time?
Every time I check the meter, it's between 11.5 and 12.2vdc.


>
>
> <snip>
>
>
> --
> Tegger



Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 24 Oct 2011, 08:01 pm
/g
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Questions about gas mileage and lights flickering, 98 civic LX


"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:j850ci$msb$1@speranza.aioe.org...
> On 10/24/2011 04:58 PM, /g wrote:
>> Dear Honda enthusiasts, I need the benefit of your knowledge and
>> experience.
>>
>> I apologize for the length of this, I wanted to give all details.
>>
>> The car is an 1998 Civic LX. 165K miles approx.
>>
>> I have 2 issues/questions.
>>
>> The first is gas mileage. I bought the car from my son, and he claims he
>> was
>> getting 35 to 40 mpg. His commute was mainly highway to and from Boston.
>> My
>> commute is mostly 2 lane local roads with some highway. I'm getting 32 to
>> 34
>> max. I have done a timing belt, and a tune-up, plugs, air filter, oil
>> change
>> to synthetic. I verified that the belt is on correct, not off one tooth
>> as I
>> thought. I checked the timing, and yes I shorted the connector and got a
>> CEL. The timing was advanced about 1/4" from the correct marks. When I
>> reset it to the correct marks, the mileage went down. I have since moved
>> the
>> distributor as far retarded as possible, and the mileage came up a bit. I
>> also googled mileage for this car, and it came back as 32 mpg.
>>
>> My question to you is, from experience, what kind of mileage have you
>> folks
>> who own this car or one very similar, have you gotten? If higher than
>> what
>> I'm getting, what could be wrong/what have I missed?

>
> 1. there's a ton of things affecting mileage. apart from lead-footedness,
> type of gasoline, tire inflation pressure, brake usage and condition,
> there's also the fundamental difference in your "local road" usage vs his
> highway. you need to get your head around that before you start doing
> intellectually retarded things like trying to **** with the ignition
> timing.


Mr. Beam, are you always in a bad mood? I've been driving for 40 plus
years, and have been ****ing with
vehicles for that long. I am very well aware of all of the above. Yes, I
do have a lead foot at times, but have
driven with a light foot trying to duplicate his results, and it hasn't
helped. I have noticed in other vehicles (haven't
tried it with this one) that using mid grade and sometimes super, actually
will raise gas mileage by a small amount.
Tire inflation will affect things, but not 5+ mpg. And yes, our road use is
different, but he described his runs to
Boston as all highway, 'hammer down', meaning cranking down there at the
speed of all the other morons on the
road, which should actually reduce his results...... Also, my experiments
with the timing settings 'seems' to have
changed the mileage results, because during each trial, I try to drive in a
similar style, ie trying to be consistant.

>
> 2. i smell bullshit. you /can't/ **** with the ignition timing on the
> 98 - it's an obdII vehicle with the timing set by the tone ring on the
> crank, not distributor position. even if you could retard it, doing so
> typically reduces mileage, not increases it.


Tell that to the car. I change the setting, the mileage changes. I
also guage it by how many miles I achieve for
gas guage needle positions. e.g. 100 miles at the 3/4 full mark. 150 or
175 miles at the 1/2 full mark.

>
>
>>
>> Second issue. The headlights are flickering. While driving on the
>> highway,
>> the lights will go from normal brightness to a dim mode, and then back to
>> normal brightness. At this time the dash lights and taillights do the
>> same.
>> The taillights were confirmed by a co-worker who passed me on the highway
>> on
>> the way to work. I had mentioned this to him, and he knew it was me when
>> he
>> saw the taillights dim.
>>
>> To check this, I bought a voltmeter that plugs into the cigarette
>> lighter,
>> and gives a digital readout of the voltage. I'm getting right around
>> 12.0v
>> with headlights off, and as low as 11.5 with headlights on (car running).

>
> classic alternator problem. you don't state mileage, but if you're up at
> 150k or more, the alternator is due for replacement. if it's not just a
> loose belt. if this problem even exists at all.


Absolutely correct. I am well versed in alternator problems. I've had
them all, and it's easy to be confused by them. My current confusion
is why no idiot light lighting up? Also, perhaps you should read things a
bit more carefully before you jump down the throat of someone asking
for help. Third line in I said: The car is an 1998 Civic LX. 165K miles
approx. Also, somewhere near the bottom I stated that the belt is NOT
loose.


>
>
>> I
>> have not had the chance to check the voltage levels when the lights do
>> the
>> dimming thing. Tonight, I pulled the fusebox and per the Haynes manual,
>> checked the ELD (electrical load dectector), and it passed the test.
>> Also, I
>> plugged the voltmeter into another vehicle and got 14 volts with the car
>> running, just to check the voltmeter.
>>
>> I googled the headlight thing, and got this:
>> http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2240390
>>
>> It seems that several of these folks replaced the alternator to no effect
>> (regarding the lights flickering, not the low voltage). Also, someone
>> mentioned cutting the wire to the computer that shuts the alternator off
>> at
>> times to save gas.
>>
>> Mr. Tegger, I looked at your sight and found the TSB about the wire
>> chafing
>> on the intake bracket. I have not been able to get under the car yet to
>> check this.
>>
>> The battery is brand new.
>>
>> The alternator is keeping the battery charged to some level, the car
>> starts
>> every time I use it. Although, I left the headlights on accidentally one
>> morning and killed the battery in 15 minutes. (almost missed a job
>> interview, I was NOT amused.....)
>>
>> So, after this longwinded ramble......... my question is, have any of you
>> experienced this, and what was your solution?
>>
>> Oh yeah, currently, no CEL, and the battery/alternator dash light is
>> working, and never comes on while the car is running. All screws are
>> tight
>> in the under hood fuse box. And, the alternator belt is tight.
>>
>> ?????????????????????
>>
>> Thanks for any help, /glenn
>>
>>

>
>
> --
> nomina rutrum rutrum


So, Mr. Beam, I'll ask again, do you have any real life experience that
you might share that could help me? I'm asking nicely for help, and
really don't need unnecessary attitude. I've not been rude to you, no need
to be rude to me......

thanks.


Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 24 Oct 2011, 10:17 pm
Cameo
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Questions about gas mileage and lights flickering, 98 civic LX

On 10/24/2011 5:37 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> Second issue. The headlights are flickering. While driving on the
>> highway,
>> the lights will go from normal brightness to a dim mode, and then back to
>> normal brightness. At this time the dash lights and taillights do the
>> same.
>> The taillights were confirmed by a co-worker who passed me on the
>> highway on
>> the way to work. I had mentioned this to him, and he knew it was me
>> when he
>> saw the taillights dim.
>>
>> To check this, I bought a voltmeter that plugs into the cigarette
>> lighter,
>> and gives a digital readout of the voltage. I'm getting right around
>> 12.0v
>> with headlights off, and as low as 11.5 with headlights on (car running).

>
> classic alternator problem. you don't state mileage, but if you're up at
> 150k or more, the alternator is due for replacement. if it's not just a
> loose belt. if this problem even exists at all.


Couldn't just need a new brush kit? My '94 Accord LX just past 300K with
the original alternator but the brushes had to be replaced last year.
Ever since that I get around 13.6 V at almost any electric load and RPM
and around 12.5 V when parked.

Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 24 Oct 2011, 10:31 pm
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Questions about gas mileage and lights flickering, 98 civic LX

On 10/24/2011 08:17 PM, Cameo wrote:
> On 10/24/2011 5:37 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>> Second issue. The headlights are flickering. While driving on the
>>> highway,
>>> the lights will go from normal brightness to a dim mode, and then
>>> back to
>>> normal brightness. At this time the dash lights and taillights do the
>>> same.
>>> The taillights were confirmed by a co-worker who passed me on the
>>> highway on
>>> the way to work. I had mentioned this to him, and he knew it was me
>>> when he
>>> saw the taillights dim.
>>>
>>> To check this, I bought a voltmeter that plugs into the cigarette
>>> lighter,
>>> and gives a digital readout of the voltage. I'm getting right around
>>> 12.0v
>>> with headlights off, and as low as 11.5 with headlights on (car
>>> running).

>>
>> classic alternator problem. you don't state mileage, but if you're up at
>> 150k or more, the alternator is due for replacement. if it's not just a
>> loose belt. if this problem even exists at all.

>
> Couldn't just need a new brush kit? My '94 Accord LX just past 300K with
> the original alternator but the brushes had to be replaced last year.
> Ever since that I get around 13.6 V at almost any electric load and RPM
> and around 12.5 V when parked.
>


you got it. i said ~150k for the civic because that's my experience.
the accord alternator is mounted higher out of the way of dirt and is at
the front of the motor where it can get cooled better than the civic.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 25 Oct 2011, 08:54 am
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Questions about gas mileage and lights flickering, 98 civic LX

"/g" <me@you.com> wrote in
news:Eznpq.38$ZX.14@newsreading01.news.tds.net:


<snip>



>
> And that's exactly what I'm trying to figure out. Whereas my
> battery is
> not getting a full charge, as confirmed by Sears who load tested the
> battery and said that the capacity was about 350CCA on a battery that
> has a full charge of 500CCA.




That's only a partial test. Here's how to do the other test:
Engine OFF, key OUT,
1) Turn headlights on for 5 minutes.
2) Turn headlights off and wait another 5 minutes.
3) Check across battery terminals with a DVOM.

If you get ANYTHING less than 12.65V, the batery is either failing to retain
a full-charge, or is not being properly topped-up by the alternator.



> I really don't want to just change out
> the alternator just to find out that it isn't the problem.




A bad alternator is pretty accurately reflected in the charge light coming
on. If the charge light doesn't come on, the alternator is likely fine.



> Even with
> the ELD in action though, shouldn't the voltage jump to 14V or so at
> some time? Every time I check the meter, it's between 11.5 and
> 12.2vdc.



Yes, the voltage ought to jump to 14.4 or so from time to time; those are the
only times the alternator is charging the battery. If the voltage never goes
to 14, either the alternator is not charging, or the ELD is bad. Most likely
the second one.

ELD failure was common in these cars, which is why Honda eventually made it a
replaceable item. Previously it was part of the fuse-box itself, and was
expensive to replace.

With the engine running, turn on the headlights and rear-window defogger
while monitoring the DVOM. The load should force a properly-operating ELD to
allow charging-voltage fairly quickly.

Your ELD plugs-in to the under-hood fuse box. You can grab a replacement at a
wreckers for pretty cheap. It should be the black box towards the front-
right-hand corner of the fuse box.


--
Tegger
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 25 Oct 2011, 09:05 am
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Questions about gas mileage and lights flickering, 98 civic LX

"/g" <me@you.com> wrote in
news:OTnpq.39$ZX.26@newsreading01.news.tds.net:

> I am well versed in alternator problems.
> I've had them all, and it's easy to be confused by them. My
> current confusion is why no idiot light lighting up?




I don't think it's your alternator. I think you've got that common
ELD-failure issue. See my other reply.


--
Tegger
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Honda Civic flickering lights and SRS light on/off. emil22 Honda Technical 0 10 Nov 2008 07:44 pm
honda accord 1994 flickering lights nab Honda 2 0 27 Aug 2007 08:09 pm
flickering background lights kalmatt@cox.net Honda 2 0 16 Sep 2006 08:40 pm
2000 EX-V6 dash lights flickering? rs Honda 2 2 02 Aug 2004 09:16 pm
2000 Accord EX-V6 flickering dash lights? rs Honda 3 0 01 Aug 2004 11:38 am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:41 am.


Attribution:
Honda News | Autoblog
Powered by Yahoo Answers




Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2 © 2011, Crawlability, Inc.
HondaCarForum.com is not affiliated with Honda Motor Company in any way. Honda Motor Company does not sponsor, support, or endorse HondaCarForum.com in any way. Copyright/trademark/sales mark infringements are not intended or implied.