Honda Car Forum

Greyjaei wrote:
> Car info:
> 92 Honda Civic DX
> 340k(engine rebuilt at 300k)
>
> About a week ago my engine troubles started.
> Was driving home when the engine temperature shot up, checked the
> coolant and there was none there.
> Refilled it, took it to a mechanic friend, he said the Thermostat
> wasn't working, which was resulting in the coolant being boiled off.
> Seemed reasonable, changed that, coolant hasn't been dissappearing much
> or at all since then. (timing belt is going, can't drive it around much
> to check)
> WAS going to get the belt changed, but the mechanic at the place I took
> it to was pretty convinced I had a blown head gasket or cracked head.
> All he did was take off the valve cover, didn't do any compression
> tests etc.
>
> There seems to be no coolant in the oil pan, and no oil in the coolant.
> But the inside of the valve cover is covered in this brown sludge.
>
> I'm not sure what to do.
> Is it definitally a blown head gasket/cracked head?
> Could that brown sludge have formed inside the valve cover any other
> way?
>
> Not really willing to dish out the 1500 to repair the head gasket right
> now, or the 3000 to repair the head. Want to be sure of where I go from
> here and would appreciate any opinons. The car is a really nice ride
> and I'll be sorry to see it go.
>
> Here are a couple pictures of the valve cover and lifters etc
> http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e15/Greyjaei/2.jpg
> http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e15/Greyjaei/1.jpg
>

mayonnaise is definitely head gasket or worse - unless there's some
really basic error like someone "filling" the radiator using the wrong hole.

since this motor has already been rebuilt, and since mayonnaise is a
comparatively rare symptom of gasket failure in open deck honda motors,
i would be worried about cracked block or head and therefore /not/
repair it. instead, buy a jdm replacement motor for ~$300. it's quick,
cheap, and a lot better than stripping, testing, replacing & rebuilding
what may be a piece of junk.

are you in northern california and is the transmission automatic? if
so, and if you don't want to deal with a repair like this, let me know -
i may be interested in buying it...

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:3FJQg.752$o71.483@newsread3.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
>> From reading here, and working with a friend's car this past summer, the
>> oil-in-the-coolant and coolant-in-the-oil indications do not seem to
>> always appear. My friend's Civic was experiencing regular overheaing.
>> Ultimately she had to have the coolant tested for exhaust products at the
>> local dealer. That nailed it. Her 99 Civic, about 115k miles, needed a new
>> head gasket. Years before she had had one overheat episode. But it might
>> have just been the very hot summer this year that put too much strain on
>> the gasket.
>>
> Definitely - failure from the combustion chamber to the coolant passages is
> pretty common.

not only that, it's about the /only/ way an open deck honda motor can leak!

> I imagine it has something to do with extremely hot gasses
> under high pressure hammering on it ;-)
>
>> If the car is not overheating, then from what you say, I guess I'd change
>> the oil and monitor for a few weeks. Or consider having the coolant
>> chemistry tested for something like $50.
>>
>> With the recent overheat episode, I would not be optimistic.
>>
> That's the part that worries me, too. Even a single serious overheat can
> warp the head (and it's not just a Honda thing), causing the middle to lift
> up from the gasket.

indeed!

> The repair is the same as head gasket replacement with
> the addition of having the head planed at a cylinder head shop or machine
> shop.

head skimming is /not/ always essential, and i recommend against it
where possible. for a diy repair where cleanup can be done at home and
deck flatness can be easily tested, there's no reason to skim. it makes
sense to shops because they don't want to spend too much time and they
want to cover their asses in the event of return, but imo, it's shoddy
practice based on habit, not reality of the repair.

> In any event, the head will have to be checked for flatness and should
> be looked over by an expert before reinstalling, if you (the OP) do have to
> remove the head.
>
> Mike
>
>

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
E
>> With the recent overheat episode, I would not be
>> optimistic.
>>
> That's the part that worries me, too. Even a single
> serious overheat can warp the head (and it's not just a
> Honda thing), causing the middle to lift up from the
> gasket. The repair is the same as head gasket replacement
> with the addition of having the head planed at a cylinder
> head shop or machine shop. In any event, the head will
> have to be checked for flatness and should be looked over
> by an expert before reinstalling, if you (the OP) do have
> to remove the head.

While that's my (admittedly amateur) bet, I wouldn't put all
my money on it, because I am baffled as to why the oil
around the rocker arm assembly is not all green-brown milk
shake looking. (Well nor does it look sludged from not
having the oil changed regularly, but maybe the camera is
not capturing all.)

Like you and others seem to suggest, if the valve cover top
has all this coolant-in-the-oil look to it, one would surely
see the same around the rocker arms, etc. wouldn't they?

Like I mentioned, I saw a guy dumping a pan full of
coolant-contaminated engine oil (from a definite blown head
gasket), and its contents looked like what the OP's valve
cover photo showed, but I did not walk over to the car and
look at the rest of the engine. (This was an aside to an
automotive course I took recently.)

Thanks everyone, this is all great advice and I appreciate it!
I'm leaning towards selling the car, it still looks nice and for the
moment it runs great. But I'm betting on a cracked head. I have a
feeling other things are going to start going, they may be minor but
they'll start adding up. Boy I'll miss this car if it goes though, good
car.
I'll look into the engine replacement, not sure that's an option. I
live up North near Alaska, things like that may be hard to come by.
Thanks again.

jim beam wrote:
> Greyjaei wrote:
> > Car info:
> > 92 Honda Civic DX
> > 340k(engine rebuilt at 300k)
> >
> > About a week ago my engine troubles started.
> > Was driving home when the engine temperature shot up, checked the
> > coolant and there was none there.
> > Refilled it, took it to a mechanic friend, he said the Thermostat
> > wasn't working, which was resulting in the coolant being boiled off.
> > Seemed reasonable, changed that, coolant hasn't been dissappearing much
> > or at all since then. (timing belt is going, can't drive it around much
> > to check)
> > WAS going to get the belt changed, but the mechanic at the place I took
> > it to was pretty convinced I had a blown head gasket or cracked head.
> > All he did was take off the valve cover, didn't do any compression
> > tests etc.
> >
> > There seems to be no coolant in the oil pan, and no oil in the coolant.
> > But the inside of the valve cover is covered in this brown sludge.
> >
> > I'm not sure what to do.
> > Is it definitally a blown head gasket/cracked head?
> > Could that brown sludge have formed inside the valve cover any other
> > way?
> >
> > Not really willing to dish out the 1500 to repair the head gasket right
> > now, or the 3000 to repair the head. Want to be sure of where I go from
> > here and would appreciate any opinons. The car is a really nice ride
> > and I'll be sorry to see it go.
> >
> > Here are a couple pictures of the valve cover and lifters etc
> > http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e15/Greyjaei/2.jpg
> > http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e15/Greyjaei/1.jpg
> >
>
> mayonnaise is definitely head gasket or worse - unless there's some
> really basic error like someone "filling" the radiator using the wrong hole.
>
> since this motor has already been rebuilt, and since mayonnaise is a
> comparatively rare symptom of gasket failure in open deck honda motors,
> i would be worried about cracked block or head and therefore /not/
> repair it. instead, buy a jdm replacement motor for ~$300. it's quick,
> cheap, and a lot better than stripping, testing, replacing & rebuilding
> what may be a piece of junk.
>
> are you in northern california and is the transmission automatic? if
> so, and if you don't want to deal with a repair like this, let me know -
> i may be interested in buying it...

Greyjaei wrote:
> Thanks everyone, this is all great advice and I appreciate it!
> I'm leaning towards selling the car, it still looks nice and for the
> moment it runs great. But I'm betting on a cracked head. I have a
> feeling other things are going to start going, they may be minor but
> they'll start adding up. Boy I'll miss this car if it goes though, good
> car.
> I'll look into the engine replacement, not sure that's an option. I
> live up North near Alaska, things like that may be hard to come by.

google for jdm import engines. they're cheap and they ship to your
door. even alaska.

> Thanks again.
>
> jim beam wrote:
>> Greyjaei wrote:
>>> Car info:
>>> 92 Honda Civic DX
>>> 340k(engine rebuilt at 300k)
>>>
>>> About a week ago my engine troubles started.
>>> Was driving home when the engine temperature shot up, checked the
>>> coolant and there was none there.
>>> Refilled it, took it to a mechanic friend, he said the Thermostat
>>> wasn't working, which was resulting in the coolant being boiled off.
>>> Seemed reasonable, changed that, coolant hasn't been dissappearing much
>>> or at all since then. (timing belt is going, can't drive it around much
>>> to check)
>>> WAS going to get the belt changed, but the mechanic at the place I took
>>> it to was pretty convinced I had a blown head gasket or cracked head.
>>> All he did was take off the valve cover, didn't do any compression
>>> tests etc.
>>>
>>> There seems to be no coolant in the oil pan, and no oil in the coolant.
>>> But the inside of the valve cover is covered in this brown sludge.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what to do.
>>> Is it definitally a blown head gasket/cracked head?
>>> Could that brown sludge have formed inside the valve cover any other
>>> way?
>>>
>>> Not really willing to dish out the 1500 to repair the head gasket right
>>> now, or the 3000 to repair the head. Want to be sure of where I go from
>>> here and would appreciate any opinons. The car is a really nice ride
>>> and I'll be sorry to see it go.
>>>
>>> Here are a couple pictures of the valve cover and lifters etc
>>> http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e15/Greyjaei/2.jpg
>>> http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e15/Greyjaei/1.jpg
>>>
>> mayonnaise is definitely head gasket or worse - unless there's some
>> really basic error like someone "filling" the radiator using the wrong hole.
>>
>> since this motor has already been rebuilt, and since mayonnaise is a
>> comparatively rare symptom of gasket failure in open deck honda motors,
>> i would be worried about cracked block or head and therefore /not/
>> repair it. instead, buy a jdm replacement motor for ~$300. it's quick,
>> cheap, and a lot better than stripping, testing, replacing & rebuilding
>> what may be a piece of junk.
>>
>> are you in northern california and is the transmission automatic? if
>> so, and if you don't want to deal with a repair like this, let me know -
>> i may be interested in buying it...
>

Did a compression test today, here are the results from left to right
as you look at the motor from the front of the car.

190 240 185 175

May have been coolant spraying out of the second. There was also a
puddle of oil forming under where the timing belt should be.

any more thoughts on this?

Greyjaei wrote:
> Car info:
> 92 Honda Civic DX
> 340k(engine rebuilt at 300k)
>
> About a week ago my engine troubles started.
> Was driving home when the engine temperature shot up, checked the
> coolant and there was none there.
> Refilled it, took it to a mechanic friend, he said the Thermostat
> wasn't working, which was resulting in the coolant being boiled off.
> Seemed reasonable, changed that, coolant hasn't been dissappearing much
> or at all since then. (timing belt is going, can't drive it around much
> to check)
> WAS going to get the belt changed, but the mechanic at the place I took
> it to was pretty convinced I had a blown head gasket or cracked head.
> All he did was take off the valve cover, didn't do any compression
> tests etc.
>
> There seems to be no coolant in the oil pan, and no oil in the coolant.
> But the inside of the valve cover is covered in this brown sludge.
>
> I'm not sure what to do.
> Is it definitally a blown head gasket/cracked head?
> Could that brown sludge have formed inside the valve cover any other
> way?
>
> Not really willing to dish out the 1500 to repair the head gasket right
> now, or the 3000 to repair the head. Want to be sure of where I go from
> here and would appreciate any opinons. The car is a really nice ride
> and I'll be sorry to see it go.
>
> Here are a couple pictures of the valve cover and lifters etc
> http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e15/Greyjaei/2.jpg
> http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e15/Greyjaei/1.jpg

"Greyjaei" <greyjaei@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159044378.196017.204120@k70g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Did a compression test today, here are the results from left to right
> as you look at the motor from the front of the car.
>
> 190 240 185 175
>
> May have been coolant spraying out of the second. There was also a
> puddle of oil forming under where the timing belt should be.
>
> any more thoughts on this?
>
Ouch! There isn't much point in putting labor into that engine. Those
numbers tell a grim story and in combination with the other indications a
replacement engine from Japan is going to be your best bet if you want to
keep the car. The others here can give you pointers with that. (That 240 is
actually from the second cylinder?)

Mike

The 240 is the one that is the second closest to the distributer cap.
Not too sure on the ordering, so bear with me

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "Greyjaei" <greyjaei@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1159044378.196017.204120@k70g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> > Did a compression test today, here are the results from left to right
> > as you look at the motor from the front of the car.
> >
> > 190 240 185 175
> >
> > May have been coolant spraying out of the second. There was also a
> > puddle of oil forming under where the timing belt should be.
> >
> > any more thoughts on this?
> >
> Ouch! There isn't much point in putting labor into that engine. Those
> numbers tell a grim story and in combination with the other indications a
> replacement engine from Japan is going to be your best bet if you want to
> keep the car. The others here can give you pointers with that. (That 240 is
> actually from the second cylinder?)
>
> Mike

"Greyjaei" <greyjaei@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159059886.927360.286250@e3g2000cwe.googlegro ups.com...
> The 240 is the one that is the second closest to the distributer cap.
> Not too sure on the ordering, so bear with me
>

Yeah... my concern is that typical (not necessarily all) head gasket
failures are in the center of the head, and especially those resulting from
overheating. If you had 185-160-150-175 I'd think a head gasket would get
you looking decent again. With the possibility of coolant in the oil but not
oil in the coolant and the atypical compression numbers, plus the other
observations you have, I'm concerned you will find a crack in the head or
block. That would allow coolant into the crankcase without letting oil into
the coolant. It also is not what you want to deal with. A replacement engine
is the clearest path to daylight again.

Mike

That slow creeping dreadfull feeling inside of me was right

Thanks again!

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "Greyjaei" <greyjaei@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1159059886.927360.286250@e3g2000cwe.googlegro ups.com...
> > The 240 is the one that is the second closest to the distributer cap.
> > Not too sure on the ordering, so bear with me
> >
>
> Yeah... my concern is that typical (not necessarily all) head gasket
> failures are in the center of the head, and especially those resulting from
> overheating. If you had 185-160-150-175 I'd think a head gasket would get
> you looking decent again. With the possibility of coolant in the oil but not
> oil in the coolant and the atypical compression numbers, plus the other
> observations you have, I'm concerned you will find a crack in the head or
> block. That would allow coolant into the crankcase without letting oil into
> the coolant. It also is not what you want to deal with. A replacement engine
> is the clearest path to daylight again.
>
> Mike