Honda Car Forum

Matt Ion wrote:
>
> TeGGeR® wrote:
> > Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
> > news:mJaGg.440318$IK3.223342@pd7tw1no:
> >
> >
> >>TeGGeR® wrote:
> >>
> >>>soundy@moltenimage.com wrote in
> >>>news:1156033205.645620.308870@b28g2000cwb.googl egroups.com:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage drop
> >>>>problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it tries to
> >>>>catch, it won't quite take off.
> >>>>
> >>>>ECU gives a code 16 ("Fuel Injector System: defective circuit or
> >>>>unplugged / defective fuel injector".)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Wanna take a second look at that Main Relay?
> >>
> >>Already did. All working fine. Came out of another working Civic, in
> >>fact.
> >>
> >>Like I said, the injectors ARE working, they ARE spraying fuel (at
> >>least, the main injector is).
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > So you've for sure got spark, for sure the igniton timing is correct, and
> > for sure the ECU is driving the injectors correctly now?
>
> Heheheh, funny story...
>
> > Does the car start with a shot of ether?
>
> Wanted to try that, but buddy didn't have any in the shop, and at that point we
> didn't have time to go pick some up.
>
> > A code 16 sometimes does actually mean a defective injector.
>
> That's what I figured, but they seemed to bench-test fine.
>
> Anyway... buddy just called, he got it going: new plugs and a fresh battery and
> it fired right up. Apparently the Bosch Platinums that came in the thing were
> bunk, despite showing good soild spark when tested outside the engine(???).
>
> Would be interesting to see if the ECU is still giving an error code. I'm
> wondering if it might have been stored from when the bad fuel pump was still in;
> I can see how the pump dragging down the voltage could affect injector
> operation, since all three are on the same circuit off the main relay, and the
> ECU might read the lack of input signal from the injectors as a "bad" unit(s).
> Or it may have even stored that code from when we tested the injector wiring
> with them disconnected? How long does the ECU hold codes?
>
> So, another mystery solved... once again, I thank you all for your assistance,
> especially the masterful TeGGeR



So, once again Bosch does it again.

JT

"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpster@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote
> Matt Ion wrote:
>> Anyway... buddy just called, he got it going: new plugs
>> and a fresh battery and
>> it fired right up. Apparently the Bosch Platinums that
>> came in the thing were
>> bunk, despite showing good soild spark when tested
>> outside the engine(???).

>
> So, once again Bosch does it again.

Someone ought to compile statistics on how many times
non-OEM plugs have been reported here to be behind
starting/running problems. It might make the case easier to
argue.

Once again, another simple solution behind a major problem,
too.

Elle wrote:
>
> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpster@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote
> > Matt Ion wrote:
> >> Anyway... buddy just called, he got it going: new plugs
> >> and a fresh battery and
> >> it fired right up. Apparently the Bosch Platinums that
> >> came in the thing were
> >> bunk, despite showing good soild spark when tested
> >> outside the engine(???).
>
> >
> > So, once again Bosch does it again.
>
> Someone ought to compile statistics on how many times
> non-OEM plugs have been reported here to be behind
> starting/running problems. It might make the case easier to
> argue.
>
> Once again, another simple solution behind a major problem,
> too.


Unfortunately, the Bosch reputation (regarding sparkplugs) ranks below
that of Champion, a brand that I have avoided for many years.

I always use AC, MOPAR etc in my vintage cars.

Regarding modern tin, Bosch plugs fail easily. Let 'em get wet once,
just toss 'em and start over again hopefully selecting another brand.

No Bosch for this guy (well, their wiper motors are ok..)

JT

Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpster@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote in
news:44EA66CA.FDCA543C@GrumpyvilleNOT.com:

>
>
> Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>> > Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
>> > news:mJaGg.440318$IK3.223342@pd7tw1no:
>> >
>> >
>> >>TeGGeR® wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>soundy@moltenimage.com wrote in
>> >>>news:1156033205.645620.308870@b28g2000cwb.googl egroups.com:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage
>> >>>>drop problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it
>> >>>>tries to catch, it won't quite take off.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>ECU gives a code 16 ("Fuel Injector System: defective circuit or
>> >>>>unplugged / defective fuel injector".)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Wanna take a second look at that Main Relay?
>> >>
>> >>Already did. All working fine. Came out of another working Civic,
>> >>in fact.
>> >>
>> >>Like I said, the injectors ARE working, they ARE spraying fuel (at
>> >>least, the main injector is).
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > So you've for sure got spark, for sure the igniton timing is
>> > correct, and for sure the ECU is driving the injectors correctly
>> > now?
>>
>> Heheheh, funny story...
>>
>> > Does the car start with a shot of ether?
>>
>> Wanted to try that, but buddy didn't have any in the shop, and at
>> that point we didn't have time to go pick some up.
>>
>> > A code 16 sometimes does actually mean a defective injector.
>>
>> That's what I figured, but they seemed to bench-test fine.
>>
>> Anyway... buddy just called, he got it going: new plugs and a fresh
>> battery and it fired right up. Apparently the Bosch Platinums that
>> came in the thing were bunk, despite showing good soild spark when
>> tested outside the engine(???).
>>
>> Would be interesting to see if the ECU is still giving an error code.
>> I'm wondering if it might have been stored from when the bad fuel
>> pump was still in; I can see how the pump dragging down the voltage
>> could affect injector operation, since all three are on the same
>> circuit off the main relay, and the ECU might read the lack of input
>> signal from the injectors as a "bad" unit(s). Or it may have even
>> stored that code from when we tested the injector wiring with them
>> disconnected? How long does the ECU hold codes?
>>
>> So, another mystery solved... once again, I thank you all for your
>> assistance, especially the masterful TeGGeR
>
>
>
> So, once again Bosch does it again.
>
> JT

I put a set of Bosch Platinum-2 plugs in my 94 GSR at ~57,000mi,and it
starts and runs fine.It's been about 2 months now.
The old plugs looked OK.

How can new spark plugs be "bunk"?
Were those the plugs that were in there when he acquired the car?
Maybe old plugs,or gaps boogered? Maybe grease on the insulator?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
news:yXsGg.448328$IK3.118934@pd7tw1no:


>
> Anyway... buddy just called, he got it going: new plugs and a fresh
> battery and it fired right up. Apparently the Bosch Platinums that
> came in the thing were bunk, despite showing good soild spark when
> tested outside the engine(???).



Did they show a purply-blue spark when tested out of the engine? That's the
key. If, in a dark garage (or at night), the color is anything but purply-
blue, then it's weak. And whay is it weak, well, it appears to depend on a
number of factors.



>
> Would be interesting to see if the ECU is still giving an error code.
> I'm wondering if it might have been stored from when the bad fuel pump
> was still in; I can see how the pump dragging down the voltage could
> affect injector operation, since all three are on the same circuit off
> the main relay, and the ECU might read the lack of input signal from
> the injectors as a "bad" unit(s). Or it may have even stored that code
> from when we tested the injector wiring with them disconnected? How
> long does the ECU hold codes?



Good question. It's a certain number of startups, but I don't know the
number.



>
> So, another mystery solved... once again, I thank you all for your
> assistance, especially the masterful TeGGeR



Thanks for the attribution, but I think you and your friend pretty much
solved this one on your own.

You also appear to have had multiple problems, some of which exacerbated
the effects of others. This makes remote troubleshooting difficult.

This thread (and the issues it has highlighted) has given me a couple of
more ideas for the "start problems" page, which is in the middle of an
extensive rewrite.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Jim Yanik wrote:

> I put a set of Bosch Platinum-2 plugs in my 94 GSR at ~57,000mi,and it
> starts and runs fine.It's been about 2 months now.
> The old plugs looked OK.
>
> How can new spark plugs be "bunk"?
> Were those the plugs that were in there when he acquired the car?
> Maybe old plugs,or gaps boogered? Maybe grease on the insulator?

They were the plugs that were already in the original engine, which HAD been
running before we took it out. They were nice and clean and like I said,
"bench-tested" fine. The plugs that came in the replacement engine were
extremely fouled, which is why we swapped them out in the first place.

TeGGeR® wrote:
> Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
> news:yXsGg.448328$IK3.118934@pd7tw1no:
>
>
>
>>Anyway... buddy just called, he got it going: new plugs and a fresh
>>battery and it fired right up. Apparently the Bosch Platinums that
>>came in the thing were bunk, despite showing good soild spark when
>>tested outside the engine(???).
>
>
>
>
> Did they show a purply-blue spark when tested out of the engine? That's the
> key. If, in a dark garage (or at night), the color is anything but purply-
> blue, then it's weak. And whay is it weak, well, it appears to depend on a
> number of factors.

It was a nice thick blue spark visible even outside in the bright daylight (but
still under the shadow of the hood).

> Thanks for the attribution, but I think you and your friend pretty much
> solved this one on your own.

Well, if nothing else, the link you provided to that schematic was key

> You also appear to have had multiple problems, some of which exacerbated
> the effects of others. This makes remote troubleshooting difficult.

Heh... it makes local troublshooting difficult too! But I know what you mean, a
lot of times when you're there in front of it, you may see or hear or notice
something else that gives a clue you won't get remotely. I have the same
problem all the time doing remote (phone/IM/email) computer support - something
that may take an hour on the phone could be figured out in 5 minutes sitting at
the machine.

> This thread (and the issues it has highlighted) has given me a couple of
> more ideas for the "start problems" page, which is in the middle of an
> extensive rewrite.

Cool.

Jim Yanik wrote:
>
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpster@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote in
> news:44EA66CA.FDCA543C@GrumpyvilleNOT.com:
>
> >
> >
> > Matt Ion wrote:
> >>
> >> TeGGeR® wrote:
> >> > Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
> >> > news:mJaGg.440318$IK3.223342@pd7tw1no:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>TeGGeR® wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>soundy@moltenimage.com wrote in
> >> >>>news:1156033205.645620.308870@b28g2000cwb.googl egroups.com:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage
> >> >>>>drop problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it
> >> >>>>tries to catch, it won't quite take off.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>ECU gives a code 16 ("Fuel Injector System: defective circuit or
> >> >>>>unplugged / defective fuel injector".)
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Wanna take a second look at that Main Relay?
> >> >>
> >> >>Already did. All working fine. Came out of another working Civic,
> >> >>in fact.
> >> >>
> >> >>Like I said, the injectors ARE working, they ARE spraying fuel (at
> >> >>least, the main injector is).
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > So you've for sure got spark, for sure the igniton timing is
> >> > correct, and for sure the ECU is driving the injectors correctly
> >> > now?
> >>
> >> Heheheh, funny story...
> >>
> >> > Does the car start with a shot of ether?
> >>
> >> Wanted to try that, but buddy didn't have any in the shop, and at
> >> that point we didn't have time to go pick some up.
> >>
> >> > A code 16 sometimes does actually mean a defective injector.
> >>
> >> That's what I figured, but they seemed to bench-test fine.
> >>
> >> Anyway... buddy just called, he got it going: new plugs and a fresh
> >> battery and it fired right up. Apparently the Bosch Platinums that
> >> came in the thing were bunk, despite showing good soild spark when
> >> tested outside the engine(???).
> >>
> >> Would be interesting to see if the ECU is still giving an error code.
> >> I'm wondering if it might have been stored from when the bad fuel
> >> pump was still in; I can see how the pump dragging down the voltage
> >> could affect injector operation, since all three are on the same
> >> circuit off the main relay, and the ECU might read the lack of input
> >> signal from the injectors as a "bad" unit(s). Or it may have even
> >> stored that code from when we tested the injector wiring with them
> >> disconnected? How long does the ECU hold codes?
> >>
> >> So, another mystery solved... once again, I thank you all for your
> >> assistance, especially the masterful TeGGeR
> >
> >
> >
> > So, once again Bosch does it again.
> >
> > JT
>
> I put a set of Bosch Platinum-2 plugs in my 94 GSR at ~57,000mi,and it
> starts and runs fine.It's been about 2 months now.
> The old plugs looked OK.
>
> How can new spark plugs be "bunk"?
> Were those the plugs that were in there when he acquired the car?
> Maybe old plugs,or gaps boogered? Maybe grease on the insulator?
>
>


Sorry, but I've seen numerous Bosch (plug) horror stories in a variety
of makes/models of vehicles.

JT

Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
news:yjHGg.440800$iF6.195632@pd7tw2no:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>
>> I put a set of Bosch Platinum-2 plugs in my 94 GSR at ~57,000mi,and
>> it starts and runs fine.It's been about 2 months now.
>> The old plugs looked OK.
>>
>> How can new spark plugs be "bunk"?
>> Were those the plugs that were in there when he acquired the car?
>> Maybe old plugs,or gaps boogered? Maybe grease on the insulator?
>
> They were the plugs that were already in the original engine, which
> HAD been running before we took it out. They were nice and clean and
> like I said, "bench-tested" fine. The plugs that came in the
> replacement engine were extremely fouled, which is why we swapped them
> out in the first place.
>

So,the "new" plugs got fouled,too. Not the plugs fault.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote:
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpster@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote in
> news:44EA66CA.FDCA543C@GrumpyvilleNOT.com:
>
>
>>
>>Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>>>Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
>>>>news:mJaGg.440318$IK3.223342@pd7tw1no:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>soundy@moltenimage.com wrote in
>>>>>>news:1156033205.645620.308870@b28g2000cwb.go oglegroups.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage
>>>>>>>drop problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it
>>>>>>>tries to catch, it won't quite take off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>ECU gives a code 16 ("Fuel Injector System: defective circuit or
>>>>>>>unplugged / defective fuel injector".)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Wanna take a second look at that Main Relay?
>>>>>
>>>>>Already did. All working fine. Came out of another working Civic,
>>>>>in fact.
>>>>>
>>>>>Like I said, the injectors ARE working, they ARE spraying fuel (at
>>>>>least, the main injector is).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>So you've for sure got spark, for sure the igniton timing is
>>>>correct, and for sure the ECU is driving the injectors correctly
>>>>now?
>>>
>>>Heheheh, funny story...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Does the car start with a shot of ether?
>>>
>>>Wanted to try that, but buddy didn't have any in the shop, and at
>>>that point we didn't have time to go pick some up.
>>>
>>>
>>>>A code 16 sometimes does actually mean a defective injector.
>>>
>>>That's what I figured, but they seemed to bench-test fine.
>>>
>>>Anyway... buddy just called, he got it going: new plugs and a fresh
>>>battery and it fired right up. Apparently the Bosch Platinums that
>>>came in the thing were bunk, despite showing good soild spark when
>>>tested outside the engine(???).
>>>
>>>Would be interesting to see if the ECU is still giving an error code.
>>> I'm wondering if it might have been stored from when the bad fuel
>>>pump was still in; I can see how the pump dragging down the voltage
>>>could affect injector operation, since all three are on the same
>>>circuit off the main relay, and the ECU might read the lack of input
>>>signal from the injectors as a "bad" unit(s). Or it may have even
>>>stored that code from when we tested the injector wiring with them
>>>disconnected? How long does the ECU hold codes?
>>>
>>>So, another mystery solved... once again, I thank you all for your
>>>assistance, especially the masterful TeGGeR
>>
>>
>>
>>So, once again Bosch does it again.
>>
>>JT
>
>
> I put a set of Bosch Platinum-2 plugs in my 94 GSR at ~57,000mi,and it
> starts and runs fine.It's been about 2 months now.
> The old plugs looked OK.

I've been running Platinum 2's in my '87 Accord for over a year now without a
problem of a need for a cleaning - last time I checked them, they still looked
near-new. *shrug*