Honda Car Forum

"N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154557182.254540.173170@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> What you call the "midget class," oh top posting one, is the class of
> the future, at least until some kind of technological breakthrough
> allows us to move away from fossil fuels. The US mfgrs. should have
> known this but instead of planning long term, they've been milking the
> SUV craze while it lasted, and now they're paying for it.

If what you are saying is true, the Pinto, Vega, Horizon, and other little
crap boxes would still exist. I heard your words many times in the past,
but it was only temporary.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net> wrote in
newsubAg.764$1f6.85@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net:

> If what you are saying is true, the Pinto, Vega, Horizon, and other
> little crap boxes would still exist. I heard your words many times in
> the past, but it was only temporary.


The Omni/Horizon were decent cars. They had the 2.2 4 banger -- great
little durable engine. Small cars get bad reps for being junk,
unreliable. Usually it was lack of maintenance. People who buy cheap
cars tend not to maintain them as well as more pricier cars because of
the cheap initial cost of the cars and that these economy car buyers
tend to be of a lower socio-economic class. A lot of Yugo buyers never
bothered to change their oil and would have the Yugos with their seized
engines towed to the dealer angrily demanding a new engine and when told
no, replied "you expect me to change oil on a $3900 car!?" But the Yugo
engine is actually a bulletproof, reliable, easy to maintain engine.





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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1154557182.254540.173170@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> > What you call the "midget class," oh top posting one, is the class of
> > the future, at least until some kind of technological breakthrough
> > allows us to move away from fossil fuels. The US mfgrs. should have
> > known this but instead of planning long term, they've been milking the
> > SUV craze while it lasted, and now they're paying for it.
>
> If what you are saying is true, the Pinto, Vega, Horizon, and other little
> crap boxes would still exist. I heard your words many times in the past,
> but it was only temporary.

well, the Fox-body certainly lasted long enough... I think that had
some Pinto genes in it, no? the Vega was a POS from the get go though,
although it certainly was a sharp *looking* little car. Too bad GM
didn't see fit to put an actual engine under the hood instead of the
grenade they stuffed in there. You forgot to mention the Chevette as
well, which was another GM compact that simply disappeared off the
roads almost as soon as it was discontinued. The Horizon was a poor
imitation of the Rabbit...

meanwhile, up until very recently, any of the import brands offered
just the kinds of vehicles that you sneer at. Now that fuel prices are
going up, they're bringing over some of the smaller models (Yaris,
etc.) to fill the gap left when they moved their existing models
upsized and upmarket.

nate

(still miss my old VW Scirocco... couldn't kill the damn thing even at
240K miles, and it would get close to 30 MPG if you could keep your
foot out of it. Sold it because I thought I wanted a new car, that was
dumb. Can I have it back now please?)

No offence, but I wouldn't buy one of those small cars if I was paid too. I
drive a Bonnie. It is a supercharged 3.8L V6 and *still* get's almost 30MPG
on the highway. She will move fast, she looks great, and is safe as safe can
be. If small cars are the 'future' you wish to see, then I want no part of
it and will keep my Pontiac.


"N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154557182.254540.173170@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> What you call the "midget class," oh top posting one, is the class of
> the future, at least until some kind of technological breakthrough
> allows us to move away from fossil fuels. The US mfgrs. should have
> known this but instead of planning long term, they've been milking the
> SUV craze while it lasted, and now they're paying for it. You're also
> completely disregarding reputation for quality, which is indisputably
> in favor of the imports. One thing that you got right in your post is
> that the Koreans are likely going to make a strong showing over the
> next couple years.
>
> nate
>
> Mike Hunter wrote:
>> You are entitled to your own opinion but I am simply stating facts.
>> Actually the fuel economy of the comparable cars and trucks that both GM
>> and
>> Ford have to offer are as good, or better. than import brands. Where
>> they
>> fall short is in the midget car class where the do not generally offer a
>> competitive vehicle. When one considers the drive home price difference
>> between the domestics and most imports, the domestics have the advantage
>> for
>> an astute buyer. One need prepay for their fuel by spending an extra 20%
>> or
>> 30% to get a few more MPG. The Koreans do a far better job of fuel
>> economy
>> for the price than the Japs. Both GM and Ford have more vehicles that
>> get
>> 30 or more MPG than any of the imports.
>>
>>
>> mike hunt
>>
>>
>> "John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:Yi8Ag.3641$8v.6@trnddc05...
>> > Mike Hunter wrote:
>> >> Toyota and Honda sales are bolstered by the midget cars that are in
>> >> vogue
>> >> today. GM and Ford do not offer midget cars. Seems to me that is
>> >> temporary. Midget car buyers are not generally the average US new
>> >> vehicle buyers that buys a new vehicle every three or four years.
>> >> Fords
>> >> hit was the F150, but it is end of the model year. Major F150 buyers
>> >> will soon be buying 2007s, not leftovers.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> mike hunt
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > You are the master of SPIN Mr. Hunt. Perhaps you should be working in
>> > PR
>> > or as a government Press Secretary.
>> >
>> > Yes the market has moved to more fuel efficient vehicles, and no, the
>> > US
>> > makers are not strong either in product or brand image with regard to
>> > said
>> > fuel efficient vehicles.
>> >
>> > Ford and GM lived high off the great 1990s truck boom, but that fad is
>> > over and is not likely to come back. Large trucks are likely to fall
>> > back to the 20-25% of the US market they enjoyed for many decades and
>> > away
>> > from the ~50% level of the 90s and early 00s. Fads come and go, it is
>> > their nature. This fad is over and the US makers are caught with their
>> > collective pants down, again.
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> >
>

That's your prerogative, and I can't really fault you for the choice
because the 3.8 is probably one of the best engines GM has made in
quite a while. I just prefer something lighter and more nimble, and I
don't worry about what most people think of when they say "safety" i.e.
passive safety features - I prefer to drive defensively and rely on the
handling/braking/acceleration of the car to keep me from wrecking.
Been working for me so far... (knocks wood) this is why there are
different kinds of cars on the market; you'd probably think my old 944
is too loud, rides too stiff etc. but it makes me happy to drive it

I don't really *want* to see any particular automotive future (although
if it includes more sports cars, I'm totally OK with that) but the
truth is that we're never going to see sub-$1 gasoline ever again, and
maybe not even sub-$2. I'd be happy with sub-$3 right now...

nate

80 Knight wrote:
> No offence, but I wouldn't buy one of those small cars if I was paid too. I
> drive a Bonnie. It is a supercharged 3.8L V6 and *still* get's almost 30MPG
> on the highway. She will move fast, she looks great, and is safe as safe can
> be. If small cars are the 'future' you wish to see, then I want no part of
> it and will keep my Pontiac.
>
>
> "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1154557182.254540.173170@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> > What you call the "midget class," oh top posting one, is the class of
> > the future, at least until some kind of technological breakthrough
> > allows us to move away from fossil fuels. The US mfgrs. should have
> > known this but instead of planning long term, they've been milking the
> > SUV craze while it lasted, and now they're paying for it. You're also
> > completely disregarding reputation for quality, which is indisputably
> > in favor of the imports. One thing that you got right in your post is
> > that the Koreans are likely going to make a strong showing over the
> > next couple years.
> >
> > nate
> >
> > Mike Hunter wrote:
> >> You are entitled to your own opinion but I am simply stating facts.
> >> Actually the fuel economy of the comparable cars and trucks that both GM
> >> and
> >> Ford have to offer are as good, or better. than import brands. Where
> >> they
> >> fall short is in the midget car class where the do not generally offer a
> >> competitive vehicle. When one considers the drive home price difference
> >> between the domestics and most imports, the domestics have the advantage
> >> for
> >> an astute buyer. One need prepay for their fuel by spending an extra 20%
> >> or
> >> 30% to get a few more MPG. The Koreans do a far better job of fuel
> >> economy
> >> for the price than the Japs. Both GM and Ford have more vehicles that
> >> get
> >> 30 or more MPG than any of the imports.
> >>
> >>
> >> mike hunt
> >>
> >>
> >> "John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:Yi8Ag.3641$8v.6@trnddc05...
> >> > Mike Hunter wrote:
> >> >> Toyota and Honda sales are bolstered by the midget cars that are in
> >> >> vogue
> >> >> today. GM and Ford do not offer midget cars. Seems to me that is
> >> >> temporary. Midget car buyers are not generally the average US new
> >> >> vehicle buyers that buys a new vehicle every three or four years.
> >> >> Fords
> >> >> hit was the F150, but it is end of the model year. Major F150 buyers
> >> >> will soon be buying 2007s, not leftovers.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> mike hunt
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > You are the master of SPIN Mr. Hunt. Perhaps you should be working in
> >> > PR
> >> > or as a government Press Secretary.
> >> >
> >> > Yes the market has moved to more fuel efficient vehicles, and no, the
> >> > US
> >> > makers are not strong either in product or brand image with regard to
> >> > said
> >> > fuel efficient vehicles.
> >> >
> >> > Ford and GM lived high off the great 1990s truck boom, but that fad is
> >> > over and is not likely to come back. Large trucks are likely to fall
> >> > back to the 20-25% of the US market they enjoyed for many decades and
> >> > away
> >> > from the ~50% level of the 90s and early 00s. Fads come and go, it is
> >> > their nature. This fad is over and the US makers are caught with their
> >> > collective pants down, again.
> >> >
> >> > John
> >> >
> >> >
> >

"N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154573492.316761.243050@m79g2000cwm.googlegr oups.com...
> That's your prerogative, and I can't really fault you for the choice
> because the 3.8 is probably one of the best engines GM has made in
> quite a while.

It's my personal favorite. I have had two Series I's and am now on my second
Series II (all in different cars, of course :-P). Love(d) all of them.

> I just prefer something lighter and more nimble,

I take my sister's '03 Grand Am GT out every now and then, and with the 3400
RamAir, the GT package, and the smaller size, it is a beautiful car to park,
and zip around town in. I personally, wouldn't really want a car even that
small. Grand Prix's/Intrigue's/Regal's are about the smallest I would buy.

> and I
> don't worry about what most people think of when they say "safety" i.e.
> passive safety features - I prefer to drive defensively and rely on the
> handling/braking/acceleration of the car to keep me from wrecking.
> Been working for me so far... (knocks wood) this is why there are
> different kinds of cars on the market;

I agree with that too. You can have the safest car in the world, but if you
can't drive worth crap, its not much good to you.

> you'd probably think my old 944
> is too loud, rides too stiff etc. but it makes me happy to drive it

I had an '82 Trans Am once. It was damned small on the outside, but I could
sit in the engine bay while working on it. The ride sucked, but she could
turn on a dime.

> I don't really *want* to see any particular automotive future (although
> if it includes more sports cars, I'm totally OK with that) but the
> truth is that we're never going to see sub-$1 gasoline ever again, and
> maybe not even sub-$2. I'd be happy with sub-$3 right now...

When I got gas last night, it was 119.9 a LITRE, here in Ontario Canada.
That was for the 91 octane, but even the regular 87 was well over a dollar.
I do see your point though. As gas prices rise, I may one day want a smaller
car. I just don't want to be forced into doing that.

> nate
>
> 80 Knight wrote:
>> No offence, but I wouldn't buy one of those small cars if I was paid too.
>> I
>> drive a Bonnie. It is a supercharged 3.8L V6 and *still* get's almost
>> 30MPG
>> on the highway. She will move fast, she looks great, and is safe as safe
>> can
>> be. If small cars are the 'future' you wish to see, then I want no part
>> of
>> it and will keep my Pontiac.
>>
>>
>> "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1154557182.254540.173170@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
>> > What you call the "midget class," oh top posting one, is the class of
>> > the future, at least until some kind of technological breakthrough
>> > allows us to move away from fossil fuels. The US mfgrs. should have
>> > known this but instead of planning long term, they've been milking the
>> > SUV craze while it lasted, and now they're paying for it. You're also
>> > completely disregarding reputation for quality, which is indisputably
>> > in favor of the imports. One thing that you got right in your post is
>> > that the Koreans are likely going to make a strong showing over the
>> > next couple years.
>> >
>> > nate
>> >
>> > Mike Hunter wrote:
>> >> You are entitled to your own opinion but I am simply stating facts.
>> >> Actually the fuel economy of the comparable cars and trucks that both
>> >> GM
>> >> and
>> >> Ford have to offer are as good, or better. than import brands. Where
>> >> they
>> >> fall short is in the midget car class where the do not generally offer
>> >> a
>> >> competitive vehicle. When one considers the drive home price
>> >> difference
>> >> between the domestics and most imports, the domestics have the
>> >> advantage
>> >> for
>> >> an astute buyer. One need prepay for their fuel by spending an extra
>> >> 20%
>> >> or
>> >> 30% to get a few more MPG. The Koreans do a far better job of fuel
>> >> economy
>> >> for the price than the Japs. Both GM and Ford have more vehicles
>> >> that
>> >> get
>> >> 30 or more MPG than any of the imports.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> mike hunt
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:Yi8Ag.3641$8v.6@trnddc05...
>> >> > Mike Hunter wrote:
>> >> >> Toyota and Honda sales are bolstered by the midget cars that are in
>> >> >> vogue
>> >> >> today. GM and Ford do not offer midget cars. Seems to me that is
>> >> >> temporary. Midget car buyers are not generally the average US new
>> >> >> vehicle buyers that buys a new vehicle every three or four years.
>> >> >> Fords
>> >> >> hit was the F150, but it is end of the model year. Major F150
>> >> >> buyers
>> >> >> will soon be buying 2007s, not leftovers.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> mike hunt
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > You are the master of SPIN Mr. Hunt. Perhaps you should be working
>> >> > in
>> >> > PR
>> >> > or as a government Press Secretary.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes the market has moved to more fuel efficient vehicles, and no,
>> >> > the
>> >> > US
>> >> > makers are not strong either in product or brand image with regard
>> >> > to
>> >> > said
>> >> > fuel efficient vehicles.
>> >> >
>> >> > Ford and GM lived high off the great 1990s truck boom, but that fad
>> >> > is
>> >> > over and is not likely to come back. Large trucks are likely to
>> >> > fall
>> >> > back to the 20-25% of the US market they enjoyed for many decades
>> >> > and
>> >> > away
>> >> > from the ~50% level of the 90s and early 00s. Fads come and go, it
>> >> > is
>> >> > their nature. This fad is over and the US makers are caught with
>> >> > their
>> >> > collective pants down, again.
>> >> >
>> >> > John
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>

"80 Knight" <80_knightREMOVEMEPLEASE@rogers.com> wrote in message

> I do see your point though. As gas prices rise, I may one day want a
> smaller car. I just don't want to be forced into doing that.

If we, as consumer, keep the demand for oil (in any form) up, prices will
stay up. Smaller cars are only a portion of what must be done. Cut use by
5% to 10% and prices will drop over night. But no one want to be first, no
one wants to be inconvenienced.

On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 17:35:57 GMT, <HLS@nospam.nix> wrote:

>
>"tww" <twaugh5@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:RC2Ag.14762$PO.11803@dukeread03...
>
>> Confrimed in the Business section of our paper today -- "July vehicle
>sales
>> rise for Toyota and Honda..." GM sales were off 31.2% for trucks and cars
>> down for 2.7%. Chrysler was downs 40/23.5 percent respectively. So even
>> their cars present sales problems.
>
>People are nervous. They are, perhaps temporarily, thinking economy.
>Soaring gasoline and associated energy costs are making reasoning
>people shake their heads in disbelief.
>
>The stock market is making people question the whole economic system
>and the wars in the Middle East are not helping either.
>
>Predictions were published the other day, and I dont remember really where,
>that Toyota will overtake GM for the world market in the next couple of
>years.
>Predictions dont mean anything, though, and we can wait and watch.

How do you feel about projections? Based on projected sales released
by each company at the beginning of the year, Toyota is expected to
surpass GM in total worldwide sales in 2006. I don't know for sure,
but I am betting that Toyota is doing at least as well as GM at
hitting their sales targets so far this year.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net> wrote in message
news3eAg.2026$gY6.479@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com ...
>
> "80 Knight" <80_knightREMOVEMEPLEASE@rogers.com> wrote in message
>
>> I do see your point though. As gas prices rise, I may one day want a
>> smaller car. I just don't want to be forced into doing that.
>
> If we, as consumer, keep the demand for oil (in any form) up, prices will
> stay up. Smaller cars are only a portion of what must be done.

I can't really agree with that. I think it doesn't really matter if we all
drove Sunfire's, or each company's version of it (Honda's Civic, etc), gas
would still be where it is now. They know we need it, and that we will pay
for it.

> Cut use by 5% to 10% and prices will drop over night.

I don't see that happening at all. See above. They know we need it, and they
will charge whatever they want.

> But no one want to be first, no one wants to be inconvenienced.

I can agree with that. I myself, don't use much gas at all. I mainly stay
in-town, and when I go out, I usually wait until more people have to go out,
and we all go in one car, at the same time (I live with 5 other family
members and friends).

We are all entitled to our opinions I guess. What makes you believe the
'fuel(s) of the future' will be less expensive than
gasoline? Hydrogen is currently around $20 a gallon

I've been in all three sides of the automotive business for a long time and
in the real world people buy what they want. History repeatedly tells us
what they ALWAYS want is their vehicles to be bigger and more powerful.
Look at what both Toyota and Honda have marketed over the past ten years.
They are ALL bigger and more powerful, with more new trucks and SUVs than
small cars. Todays Corolla is a bigger car than the Camry of yore. Where
the import have the advantage is that can import the midget cars the make
and sell around the world. They can't afford to build them in the US
anymore than domestics can. Even though the imports have much lower labor
and benefits cost than the domestics in the US. When buyers warm to the
higher gas prices they will shun smaller cars just as they did after the
last big gas price jumps. Teh fact is we use far more gas at $3 than we did
when it was $2

Even if we could develop an alternative fuel to replace gasoline, the cost
of a delivery system alone would be in the billions, IF we can get it built
under the current pollution laws. If we did all that OPEC can simply lower
the price of crude and make ANY new fuel a more expensive option. We sill
never see any fuel for our cars that is less expensive, so the sooner you
become accustomed to it you can buy the big powerful car vehicle you want.



mike hunt


"N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154557182.254540.173170@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> What you call the "midget class," oh top posting one, is the class of
> the future, at least until some kind of technological breakthrough
> allows us to move away from fossil fuels. The US mfgrs. should have
> known this but instead of planning long term, they've been milking the
> SUV craze while it lasted, and now they're paying for it. You're also
> completely disregarding reputation for quality, which is indisputably
> in favor of the imports. One thing that you got right in your post is
> that the Koreans are likely going to make a strong showing over the
> next couple years.
>
> nate
>
> Mike Hunter wrote:
>> You are entitled to your own opinion but I am simply stating facts.
>> Actually the fuel economy of the comparable cars and trucks that both GM
>> and
>> Ford have to offer are as good, or better. than import brands. Where
>> they
>> fall short is in the midget car class where the do not generally offer a
>> competitive vehicle. When one considers the drive home price difference
>> between the domestics and most imports, the domestics have the advantage
>> for
>> an astute buyer. One need prepay for their fuel by spending an extra 20%
>> or
>> 30% to get a few more MPG. The Koreans do a far better job of fuel
>> economy
>> for the price than the Japs. Both GM and Ford have more vehicles that
>> get
>> 30 or more MPG than any of the imports.
>>
>>
>> mike hunt