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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 31 Jul 2006, 04:21 pm
Lynn McGuire
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Default rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX

My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since new.
It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at Gillman Honda here
in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate,
throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.

They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the manual gearbox
since they are "noisy".

They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on the clutch
work but also replacing the bearings inside the transmission ?
That is a lot of work !

Thanks,
Lynn


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 31 Jul 2006, 06:25 pm
Michael Pardee
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Default Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX

"Lynn McGuire" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:12cst2n5v4o6l32@corp.supernews.com...
> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since new.
> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at Gillman Honda here
> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate,
> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.
>
> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the manual gearbox
> since they are "noisy".
>
> They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on the clutch
> work but also replacing the bearings inside the transmission ?
> That is a lot of work !
>
> Thanks,
> Lynn
>
>

Wow! I'd want somebody to pay me $2800 to replace bearings in a manual
transmission, too! If you haven't heard the noise when you were driving, my
inclination would be to thank them for their concern but I'd risk it. As
long as the gearbox is properly filled with fresh Honda Manual Transmission
Lube (which you should certainly expect to be done) the odds are in your
favor - especially when they put the stakes that high.

I agree on the rest of the work - it makes sense to me. You might want to
ask: they're replacing the pilot bearing also, right? It is part of a proper
clutch replacement.

Mike


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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 31 Jul 2006, 08:02 pm
Elle
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Default Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX

> "Lynn McGuire" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote
>> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since
>> new.
>> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at Gillman
>> Honda here
>> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk,
>> pressure plate,
>> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.
>>
>> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the
>> manual gearbox
>> since they are "noisy".
>>
>> They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on
>> the clutch
>> work but also replacing the bearings inside the
>> transmission ?
>> That is a lot of work !


Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling sounds?

I'd make them demonstrate the noise first, either while
driving around town or by putting the car on a lift and
running it.

In the alternative, get a second opinion.

I base this on a whopping three weeks of instruction on
manual transmissions but some other experience with large
machinery bearings over many years.

My instructor last week said even on a transmission
overhaul, the shaft bearings were to be left alone unless
there was evidence of failure. He said these bearings can
last well past the life of a car, as long as they are
properly lubricated (= sufficent oil in the case, and oil
changed at specified intervals).


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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 31 Jul 2006, 08:44 pm
TeGGeR®
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:QKxzg.6417$gF6.521@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net:

>> "Lynn McGuire" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote
>>> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since
>>> new.
>>> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at Gillman
>>> Honda here
>>> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk,
>>> pressure plate,
>>> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.
>>>
>>> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the
>>> manual gearbox
>>> since they are "noisy".
>>>
>>> They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on
>>> the clutch
>>> work but also replacing the bearings inside the
>>> transmission ?
>>> That is a lot of work !

>
> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling sounds?




Bad transmission bearings HOWL under load. They howl and whine in such a
manner that there's mo ignoring it (whooOOOOOOOOOOOOO). You will have
difficulty making yourself heard as you shout at your passenger. Once it
gets to that stage, you'd better do something about it soon, otherwise one
of these years the tranny will lock up on you.

The test -- to be performed by an experienced technician -- is to drive the
car to full-warm, park it in a quiet place, preferably close to a wall or
side of another vehicle, then press and release the clutch several times
with the tranny in neutral, while listening carefully.

An experienced tech can tell bearing rattle from gear rattle. You should
hear *my* tranny at 271K. Original bearings. Rattly as all get-out, but not
*howly* yet. My guy figures I've got at least a couple of years to go on
it. He says when it really needs attention, even my lousy ears will hear
it!

Personally, I've had two Toyota T-50 5-speed transmissions go bad on me. In
both cases, the bearing noise was deafening. The design of this RWD
drivetrain meant that so long as I stayed out of 5th, the bearing was not
under load, so there was no noise. This tactic enabled me to forestall
transmission replacement until I could afford it. Honda FWD transaxle
designs do not permit such flexibility.




--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 31 Jul 2006, 09:45 pm
Elle
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>> "Lynn McGuire" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote
>>>> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned
>>>> since
>>>> new.
>>>> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at
>>>> Gillman
>>>> Honda here
>>>> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk,
>>>> pressure plate,
>>>> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.
>>>>
>>>> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the
>>>> manual gearbox
>>>> since they are "noisy".
>>>>
>>>> They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on
>>>> the clutch
>>>> work but also replacing the bearings inside the
>>>> transmission ?
>>>> That is a lot of work !

>>
>> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling
>> sounds?

>
>
>
> Bad transmission bearings HOWL under load. They howl and
> whine in such a
> manner that there's mo ignoring it (whooOOOOOOOOOOOOO).
> You will have
> difficulty making yourself heard as you shout at your
> passenger. Once it
> gets to that stage, you'd better do something about it
> soon, otherwise one
> of these years the tranny will lock up on you.

snip for brevity

I am sure that elaboration will help.

I was giving a (stinkin') ASE test (one test technicians
take to become certified) answer(!).


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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 31 Jul 2006, 10:26 pm
Elle
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>> "Lynn McGuire" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote
>>>> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned
>>>> since
>>>> new.
>>>> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at
>>>> Gillman
>>>> Honda here
>>>> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk,
>>>> pressure plate,
>>>> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.
>>>>
>>>> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the
>>>> manual gearbox
>>>> since they are "noisy".
>>>>
>>>> They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on
>>>> the clutch
>>>> work but also replacing the bearings inside the
>>>> transmission ?
>>>> That is a lot of work !

>>
>> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling
>> sounds?

>
>
>
> Bad transmission bearings HOWL under load. They howl and
> whine in such a
> manner that there's mo ignoring it (whooOOOOOOOOOOOOO).
> You will have
> difficulty making yourself heard as you shout at your
> passenger. Once it
> gets to that stage, you'd better do something about it
> soon, otherwise one
> of these years the tranny will lock up on you.
>
> The test -- to be performed by an experienced
> technician -- is to drive the
> car to full-warm, park it in a quiet place, preferably
> close to a wall or
> side of another vehicle, then press and release the clutch
> several times
> with the tranny in neutral, while listening carefully.


This test makes perfect sense (since the clutch release and
engagement alternately slows and speeds up the tranny input
shaft, countershaft and mainshaft, riding on their
bearings).

> Personally, I've had two Toyota T-50 5-speed transmissions
> go bad on me.


You got me curious about how often this happens in Hondas.
Doesn't seem like we have had many posts on failed tranny
bearings in the last few years.

In fact the Usenet archives seem to show a fair number of
such failures being reported for Civics and Accords for
around the last ten years or so. Not a lot (or so my very
quick check indicated), but definitely enough to make me be
on the lookout for this with my old 91 Civic.


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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01 Aug 2006, 03:33 am
Eric
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX

Elle wrote:
>
> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling sounds?
>
> I'd make them demonstrate the noise first, either while
> driving around town or by putting the car on a lift and
> running it.
>
> In the alternative, get a second opinion.
>
> I base this on a whopping three weeks of instruction on
> manual transmissions but some other experience with large
> machinery bearings over many years.
>
> My instructor last week said even on a transmission
> overhaul, the shaft bearings were to be left alone unless
> there was evidence of failure. He said these bearings can
> last well past the life of a car, as long as they are
> properly lubricated (= sufficent oil in the case, and oil
> changed at specified intervals).


When I worked in a Honda repair shop I used to rebuild Manual
transmissions. We replaced all bearings in the transmission as standard
procedure.

Eric
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01 Aug 2006, 03:49 am
Eric
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX

Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since new.
> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at Gillman Honda here
> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate,
> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.


Why do they want to replace the clutch master and slave cylinders? Are they
leaking? Or are they doing just as a precaution? I would leave them alone
unless they're leaking.

> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the manual gearbox
> since they are "noisy".


You may want to get a second opinion on the transmission bearings. Is the
car driveable? If so, perform the test Tegger recommended. With the car
warmed up (both the engine and transmission) depress the clutch pedal. Do
you hear any noises? If so, then they're probably coming from the throwout
bearing which is normally replaced with the clutch. Now release the
clutch. Do you hear any new noises that weren't there before? If the
bearings are indeed noisy, you should hear a whining sound coming from the
transmission that wasn't there when the clutch pedal was fully depressed. A
good maintenance interval for the manual transmission oil is to replace it
every 30K miles. Has this been done on your Civic?

By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to
bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a
regular service? For what it's worth, clutches can often last much longer
than 80K miles. I have about 120K miles on my clutch with no sign of
slipping but I tend to go easy on it and I drove mostly freeway miles.

Eric
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01 Aug 2006, 11:48 am
Lynn McGuire
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX

> Why do they want to replace the clutch master and slave cylinders? Are they
> leaking? Or are they doing just as a precaution? I would leave them alone
> unless they're leaking.


yes, they are both leaking.

> You may want to get a second opinion on the transmission bearings. Is the
> car driveable? If so, perform the test Tegger recommended. With the car
> warmed up (both the engine and transmission) depress the clutch pedal. Do
> you hear any noises? If so, then they're probably coming from the throwout
> bearing which is normally replaced with the clutch. Now release the
> clutch. Do you hear any new noises that weren't there before? If the
> bearings are indeed noisy, you should hear a whining sound coming from the
> transmission that wasn't there when the clutch pedal was fully depressed. A
> good maintenance interval for the manual transmission oil is to replace it
> every 30K miles. Has this been done on your Civic?


Yes, drivable. The oil has been replaced once to my knowledge.

> By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to
> bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a
> regular service? For what it's worth, clutches can often last much longer
> than 80K miles. I have about 120K miles on my clutch with no sign of
> slipping but I tend to go easy on it and I drove mostly freeway miles.


The clutch felt "weird" and the tranny is very tough to shift in and out
of gear when the engine is running. Yes, it does "growl". This is
actually the 2nd clutch replacement. The car has really been abused.
Both our kids were taught to drive in it. Plus my son ran it off the
road one day and hung the tranny on the curb, moving it back 2 inches
(broke the motor mounts). I have always wondered if the drivetrain
was properly aligned after that.

We reduced the amount of work done to replacing the tranny bearings
($500). It was another $650 to replace the gear shafts if they are worn
also. So, I am $2150 for the work getting done right now.

Thanks,
Lynn


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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01 Aug 2006, 07:31 pm
Elle
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> Elle wrote:
>>
>> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling
>> sounds?
>>
>> I'd make them demonstrate the noise first, either while
>> driving around town or by putting the car on a lift and
>> running it.
>>
>> In the alternative, get a second opinion.
>>
>> I base this on a whopping three weeks of instruction on
>> manual transmissions but some other experience with large
>> machinery bearings over many years.
>>
>> My instructor last week said even on a transmission
>> overhaul, the shaft bearings were to be left alone unless
>> there was evidence of failure. He said these bearings can
>> last well past the life of a car, as long as they are
>> properly lubricated (= sufficent oil in the case, and oil
>> changed at specified intervals).

>
> When I worked in a Honda repair shop I used to rebuild
> Manual
> transmissions. We replaced all bearings in the
> transmission as standard
> procedure.


I believe you, of course. It makes sense, at least per my
reasoning farther down.

The discussion with the instructor came up because of an ASE
test question:
Technician A says it is a good practice to replace all
bearings when overhauling a manual transmission. Technician
B says bearings can be reused when overhauling a manual
transmission. Who is correct?
A. A
B. B
C. Both A and B
D. Neither A nor B

The instructor said B was the ASE answer. He customarily
will say when an ASE question is stupid, in his opinion, but
instead this time he elaborated as described above. He also
mentioned bearing costs.

I see that the mainshaft and countershaft bearings purchased
OEM online for my 91 Civic add up to about $108 total. This
I imagine is a small fraction of the total cost of a rebuilt
transmission by a reputable shop, especially one working
with the dealer. Given this and the not too rare reports of
Honda bearing failures, it makes perfect sense to me for a
serious shop (e.g. the dealer or a shop with a reputation)
to replace all the bearings. The risk of a comeback seems
too high.

Perhaps independent shops with somewhat shadetree oriented
mechanics catering to a crowd on a budget and with low
prices etc. might argue as the ASE question does.

If I were the customer, I'd want the independent shop
mechanic to explain this to me and give me a choice: Let
him/er decide if the bearing needed replacement, or just
replace all the tranny bearings, at an additional cost of
xyz.

Though I would think it's not like Honda owners have a
pressing need to obtain rebuilt manual trannies. Do they?
It's serious abuse that generally produces that need, ISTM,
based on my whopping three weeks and one day of manual
trannies course...


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