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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 16 Jul 2006, 05:17 pm
Jim Mowreader
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Default Strange start problem...is my logic okay?

I have a 1986 Accord LX-I with manual transmission.

When the car is cold, it starts fine, and it always runs fine. It likes
to idle at 2000rpm sometimes, but there's no hesitation or weirdness in
its operation.

When the car is warmed up, it will crank and crank and crank for quite
some time before it starts...kinda like running out a flood on a car
with a carburetor.

A strange one: if you push-start the car when it's warm, it fires right
up. But I totally trashed the left inner CV--tearing a hole in the oil
pan in the process--when I did that once, so no more of that.

So I thought, if I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine, maybe
it will start. Pull the fuse, the car runs for about three
seconds...which is all you'd expect to get. Stick the fuse back in, car
sometimes starts and sometimes does not. But you do the fuse in-out
thing, and eventually the car starts.

As an experiment, I bought a 30-amp automotive switch from RadioShack
and wired it into the fuel pump fuse circuit. This works pretty
well...if you turn the fuel pump on, crank the car for a few seconds,
then turn the fuel pump off, it fires. Immediately start pumping the gas
and turning the pump on and off, and within 20 seconds the car will be
running. And like I said, once it is running it runs great.

I think my coolant-temperature sensor (aka "thermowax sensor") is
screwed up, always reporting that the engine is cold. This device
probably only gets read at startup--if the engine's cold, dump more gas
in and it will fire right up; if you dump more gas in when it's hot the
engine floods. I'm thinkin' the mixture-enrichment cycle only lasts
about ten to fifteen seconds because once I'm out of that period, the
engine runs stably in a very short period of time.

I've already changed the fuel injector seals, and they needed it. I
changed the thermostat because the car liked to overheat, and that also
seemed to make it start a little easier. Would it be good to start
hitting junkyards looking for a new thermowax sensor? I know the dealer
price on one will be astronomical.

--jm
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 16 Jul 2006, 08:11 pm
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?

Jim Mowreader wrote:
> I have a 1986 Accord LX-I with manual transmission.
>
> When the car is cold, it starts fine, and it always runs fine. It likes
> to idle at 2000rpm sometimes, but there's no hesitation or weirdness in
> its operation.
>
> When the car is warmed up, it will crank and crank and crank for quite
> some time before it starts...kinda like running out a flood on a car
> with a carburetor.
>
> A strange one: if you push-start the car when it's warm, it fires right
> up. But I totally trashed the left inner CV--tearing a hole in the oil
> pan in the process--when I did that once, so no more of that.
>
> So I thought, if I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine, maybe
> it will start. Pull the fuse, the car runs for about three
> seconds...which is all you'd expect to get. Stick the fuse back in, car
> sometimes starts and sometimes does not. But you do the fuse in-out
> thing, and eventually the car starts.
>
> As an experiment, I bought a 30-amp automotive switch from RadioShack
> and wired it into the fuel pump fuse circuit. This works pretty
> well...if you turn the fuel pump on, crank the car for a few seconds,
> then turn the fuel pump off, it fires. Immediately start pumping the gas
> and turning the pump on and off, and within 20 seconds the car will be
> running. And like I said, once it is running it runs great.
>
> I think my coolant-temperature sensor (aka "thermowax sensor") is
> screwed up, always reporting that the engine is cold. This device
> probably only gets read at startup--if the engine's cold, dump more gas
> in and it will fire right up; if you dump more gas in when it's hot the
> engine floods. I'm thinkin' the mixture-enrichment cycle only lasts
> about ten to fifteen seconds because once I'm out of that period, the
> engine runs stably in a very short period of time.
>
> I've already changed the fuel injector seals, and they needed it. I
> changed the thermostat because the car liked to overheat, and that also
> seemed to make it start a little easier. Would it be good to start
> hitting junkyards looking for a new thermowax sensor? I know the dealer
> price on one will be astronomical.
>
> --jm


google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
of time and money.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 17 Jul 2006, 04:11 am
CCTGENE
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?


"Jim Mowreader" <xpr3@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:xpr3-B3D4B0.18175516072006@news.west.earthlink.net...
>I have a 1986 Accord LX-I with manual transmission.
>
> When the car is cold, it starts fine, and it always runs fine. It likes
> to idle at 2000rpm sometimes, but there's no hesitation or weirdness in
> its operation.
>
> When the car is warmed up, it will crank and crank and crank for quite
> some time before it starts...kinda like running out a flood on a car
> with a carburetor.
>
> A strange one: if you push-start the car when it's warm, it fires right
> up. But I totally trashed the left inner CV--tearing a hole in the oil
> pan in the process--when I did that once, so no more of that.
>
> So I thought, if I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine, maybe
> it will start. Pull the fuse, the car runs for about three
> seconds...which is all you'd expect to get. Stick the fuse back in, car
> sometimes starts and sometimes does not. But you do the fuse in-out
> thing, and eventually the car starts.
>
> As an experiment, I bought a 30-amp automotive switch from RadioShack
> and wired it into the fuel pump fuse circuit. This works pretty
> well...if you turn the fuel pump on, crank the car for a few seconds,
> then turn the fuel pump off, it fires. Immediately start pumping the gas
> and turning the pump on and off, and within 20 seconds the car will be
> running. And like I said, once it is running it runs great.
>
> I think my coolant-temperature sensor (aka "thermowax sensor") is
> screwed up, always reporting that the engine is cold. This device
> probably only gets read at startup--if the engine's cold, dump more gas
> in and it will fire right up; if you dump more gas in when it's hot the
> engine floods. I'm thinkin' the mixture-enrichment cycle only lasts
> about ten to fifteen seconds because once I'm out of that period, the
> engine runs stably in a very short period of time.
>
> I've already changed the fuel injector seals, and they needed it. I
> changed the thermostat because the car liked to overheat, and that also
> seemed to make it start a little easier. Would it be good to start
> hitting junkyards looking for a new thermowax sensor? I know the dealer
> price on one will be astronomical.
>
> --jm


When the car doesn't start are you getting spark? If so, then maybe the fuel
pump relay.


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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 17 Jul 2006, 08:34 am
Jim Mowreader
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?

In article <wL-dndyznP1HfifZnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
> especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
> of time and money.


I looked at the relay issue before I wrote the OP and it really doesn't
seem applicable.

1) this happens all year round--not just during the summer.
2) I just went outside and started the car. I got three clicks. When the
car is dead cold, it always starts within a couple of seconds of turning
the key to the "start" position--normally one second. (After I put the
new injector seals in, it doesn't even need the two-second pause for the
fuel pump to pressurize the rail--stick the key in and turn it straight
to "start," it fires right up.)
3) When the engine is hot, if you push-start the car (which doesn't
activate the starter, hence doesn't tell the PGM-FI "you're going
through a startup cycle") it always starts.
4) When you start the car hot and turn off the fuel pump during
cranking, it fires right up--naturally, it won't STAY running because no
gas is being pumped, but it does start running. And when you sit there
and feed it gas in little increments by turning the fuel pump on and off
and pumping the gas so the engine will continue to turn, eventually it
gets through that time when the PGM-FI wants to overdose the engine on
gas and it runs.
5) While this cranking and pumping thing is going on, there's a very
strong smell of gas around the car, like a car with a carb gets when
it's flooded.

If it was a main relay problem the car wouldn't run at all, and the car
runs fine. It's just a livin' bitch to start it when it's hot.

--jm
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 17 Jul 2006, 08:52 am
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?

Jim Mowreader wrote:
> In article <wL-dndyznP1HfifZnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>> google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
>> especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
>> of time and money.

>
> I looked at the relay issue before I wrote the OP and it really doesn't
> seem applicable.
>
> 1) this happens all year round--not just during the summer.


main relay. but it's worse when hot.

> 2) I just went outside and started the car. I got three clicks. When the
> car is dead cold, it always starts within a couple of seconds of turning
> the key to the "start" position--normally one second. (After I put the
> new injector seals in, it doesn't even need the two-second pause for the
> fuel pump to pressurize the rail--stick the key in and turn it straight
> to "start," it fires right up.)


the seals have /nothing/ do do with ability to start. they just hold
the gas in the rail and stop the engine sucking air, depending on which
end of the injector you're looking at.

> 3) When the engine is hot, if you push-start the car (which doesn't
> activate the starter, hence doesn't tell the PGM-FI "you're going
> through a startup cycle") it always starts.


er, it wouldn't run at all if the injector system couldn't figure out
when to start injecting...

> 4) When you start the car hot and turn off the fuel pump during
> cranking, it fires right up--naturally, it won't STAY running because no
> gas is being pumped, but it does start running. And when you sit there
> and feed it gas in little increments by turning the fuel pump on and off
> and pumping the gas so the engine will continue to turn, eventually it
> gets through that time when the PGM-FI wants to overdose the engine on
> gas and it runs.


ok, that's more diagnostic. do two things - check into flooded start
conditions and remove plugs to see if you can find the wet one. that'll
give you the leaking injector.

> 5) While this cranking and pumping thing is going on, there's a very
> strong smell of gas around the car, like a car with a carb gets when
> it's flooded.
>
> If it was a main relay problem the car wouldn't run at all, and the car
> runs fine. It's just a livin' bitch to start it when it's hot.


unfortunately, the worst thing about the relay is that it's
intermittent. i strongly recommend you repair or replace it as a
precaution. the chances of this vehicle at this age /not/ being
affected is slim to zero. then you have a clear run at your other
symptoms without false positives.

>
> --jm

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 17 Jul 2006, 10:44 am
Jim Yanik
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?

Jim Mowreader <xpr3@earthlink.net> wrote in news:xpr3-
DA9312.09343017072006@news.west.earthlink.net:

> In article <wL-dndyznP1HfifZnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>> google this group for the #1 most common failure in older hondas,
>> especially in summer. 30 seconds research would have saved you a bunch
>> of time and money.

>
> I looked at the relay issue before I wrote the OP and it really doesn't
> seem applicable.
>
> 1) this happens all year round--not just during the summer.
> 2) I just went outside and started the car. I got three clicks.


Indicating the car is not CRANKING. could be a starter problem.
(solenoid contacts?? they can be replaced.)
Could be a worn ignition switch;not energizing the starter.

> When the
> car is dead cold, it always starts within a couple of seconds of turning
> the key to the "start" position--normally one second. (After I put the
> new injector seals in, it doesn't even need the two-second pause for the
> fuel pump to pressurize the rail--stick the key in and turn it straight
> to "start," it fires right up.)
> 3) When the engine is hot, if you push-start the car (which doesn't
> activate the starter, hence doesn't tell the PGM-FI "you're going
> through a startup cycle") it always starts.


PGM-FI (ECU) does not monitor the starter.

> 4) When you start the car hot and turn off the fuel pump during
> cranking, it fires right up--naturally, it won't STAY running because no
> gas is being pumped, but it does start running. And when you sit there
> and feed it gas in little increments by turning the fuel pump on and off
> and pumping the gas so the engine will continue to turn, eventually it
> gets through that time when the PGM-FI wants to overdose the engine on
> gas and it runs.
> 5) While this cranking and pumping thing is going on, there's a very
> strong smell of gas around the car, like a car with a carb gets when
> it's flooded.
>
> If it was a main relay problem the car wouldn't run at all,


Not true.
MR is the most problem when the car is hot,but once the car starts,it stays
running,and always starts when cool.

> and the car
> runs fine. It's just a livin' bitch to start it when it's hot.
>
> --jm
>


Does the car not crank,or cranks but doesn't start? (when hot)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 17 Jul 2006, 10:47 am
Jim Yanik
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:uOudnZS0KOyhCybZnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Jim Mowreader wrote:


>>
>> If it was a main relay problem the car wouldn't run at all,


Not true.

>> and the
>> car runs fine. It's just a livin' bitch to start it when it's hot.

>
> unfortunately, the worst thing about the relay is that it's
> intermittent. i strongly recommend you repair or replace it as a
> precaution. the chances of this vehicle at this age /not/ being
> affected is slim to zero. then you have a clear run at your other
> symptoms without false positives.
>
>>
>> --jm


Yes,it's SO easy to just resolder the relay and ELIMINATE it as a trouble
source,and doesn't cost anything except a little time.

Then he could look at starter problems,or whatever.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 17 Jul 2006, 11:29 am
Jim Mowreader
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?

In article
<8vIug.405656$Fs1.125549@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"CCTGENE" <cctgene@att.net> wrote:

> When the car doesn't start are you getting spark? If so, then maybe the fuel
> pump relay.


It gets spark.

jm
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 17 Jul 2006, 12:58 pm
Jim Mowreader
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?

In article <Xns9803774C61447jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.85>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> Does the car not crank,or cranks but doesn't start? (when hot)


The car cranks fine. It runs fine once engine starts.
It starts fine when cold.
It needs to have the gas pedal pumped and pumped and pumped when
starting hot.
Once the gas pedal is pumped enough during a hot start to get it to run,
the car runs fine.

It's not an intermittent problem; it happens on every hot start.

It gives the indication of flooding only during hot starts; once the
car's running, it runs like nothing's wrong with it. It doesn't flood on
cold starts.

And this is the really weird part of the whole problem: once the car
starts, it runs exactly as it should.

I'm thinking this is the logic the car uses when a start command
(turning the key to the "start" position) is issued:

on (startup):
if (start_switch) = "on" AND (coolant_temp) < 120 deg F
then
inject additional fuel quantity for 10 seconds
and
run starter
end if

or

if (start_switch) = "on" AND (coolant_temp) >= 120 deg F
then
inject standard fuel quantity
and
run starter
end if

But for some reason, this particular specimen can't figure out that it's
already warm, so it dumps more fuel into the engine than the engine can
use, and floods it out.

--jm
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 17 Jul 2006, 07:40 pm
Jim Yanik
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Strange start problem...is my logic okay?

Jim Mowreader <xpr3@earthlink.net> wrote in news:xpr3-
FF5C10.13581317072006@news.west.earthlink.net:

> In article <Xns9803774C61447jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.85>,
> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> Does the car not crank,or cranks but doesn't start? (when hot)

>
> The car cranks fine. It runs fine once engine starts.
> It starts fine when cold.
> It needs to have the gas pedal pumped and pumped and pumped when
> starting hot.


shouldn't make any difference on a fuel-injected car;there's no
"accelerator pump" to shoot more gas into the airstream.

> Once the gas pedal is pumped enough during a hot start to get it to run,
> the car runs fine.


Or the main relay has cooled enough to work again.

>
> It's not an intermittent problem; it happens on every hot start.
>
> It gives the indication of flooding only during hot starts; once the
> car's running, it runs like nothing's wrong with it. It doesn't flood on
> cold starts.
>
> And this is the really weird part of the whole problem: once the car
> starts, it runs exactly as it should.
>
> I'm thinking this is the logic the car uses when a start command
> (turning the key to the "start" position) is issued:
>
> on (startup):
> if (start_switch) = "on" AND (coolant_temp) < 120 deg F
> then
> inject additional fuel quantity for 10 seconds
> and
> run starter
> end if
>
> or
>
> if (start_switch) = "on" AND (coolant_temp) >= 120 deg F
> then
> inject standard fuel quantity
> and
> run starter
> end if
>
> But for some reason, this particular specimen can't figure out that it's
> already warm, so it dumps more fuel into the engine than the engine can
> use, and floods it out.


I don't believe that the change in fuel would be that significant,to flood
it out.(At temps other than winter conditions)


It's sounding more and more like the main relay.
Your other post says you have spark.

You say if you pushstart the car,it starts and runs.
The ECU would not know that,the starting mixture would be the same as if
you cranked it with the starter.
If it -were- flooded,pushstarting it would be no different.


Of course,removing and resoldering the relay is fairly easy and doesn't
cost anything,and ELIMINATES it as a problem.
You seem to be resisting this.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
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